200 Missouri High Schoolers Walk Out Because Trans Student Wants to Use Girls’ Bathroom
491 replies, posted
[QUOTE=gufu;48602414]
Get ugly girls out of girl bathrooms![/QUOTE]
he's not exactly an ugly girl
he's been a guy up to last year, everyone still views him as a guy, and he looks masculine
no wonder everyone is uncomfortable
if some random dude said yeah im a girl now i want to be in the girls bathroom, obviously all the girls would be uncomfortable
I get uncomfortable when someone pees next to me at a stall and can't pee.
Getting uncomfortable over someone using the restroom when they aren't doing anything to you is stupid, but you put up with it.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48602591]Well, historically it's been a way to organize society in the most fundamental ways.[/QUOTE]
Well, so was slavery and monarchy. We're a bit beyond that now.
Maybe we should just all switch to gender neutral bathrooms completely?
Since obviously no one has any problems with having people of the opposite sex in their bathroom
[QUOTE=lyna;48602594]
if some random dude said yeah im a girl now i want to be in the girls bathroom, obviously all the girls would be uncomfortable[/QUOTE]
Imagine if trans people would just randomly decide they are a different gender now, instead of actually having to deal with that through their entire lives, until actually getting to the point where they realize their true gender. Oh, and afterwards, totally not having to deal with a huge amount of psychological sessions and therapies, because you can't just claim yourself legaly transgender without approval by a professional psychologist.
She's been surrounded by penises for a long time now, and having one of her own (I guess), I say she should stick to the boys locker room. She won't give anyone a fright either. Oh, and it'd sa damn locker room. You're supposed to just clean yourself and get changed. She's making too much of a deal out of this.
Because we should do whatever it takes to make one kid comfortable at the expense of an entire school. I personally don't give a flying fuck who uses the same public restroom as me, as long as they're courteous about it. But it isn't difficult to imagine that other people might give a shit (...)
And then when some irrelevant teenager (seriously these are children we're talking about) wants to butt heads with the issue, everyone is surprised and outraged at the response.
Seriously. Stay away from the progressive kool-aid. They've spiked it.
[QUOTE=Judas;48601531]yep[/QUOTE]
You're just as bigoted.
[QUOTE]I get uncomfortable when someone pees next to me at a stall and can't pee.
Getting uncomfortable over someone using the restroom when they aren't doing anything to you is stupid, but you put up with it. [/QUOTE]
EXACTLY. So instead of making all the other kids uncomfortable, why is it fucking evil to politely request that the ONE student in question deal with it for the time being, and then we have the discussion OUTSIDE OF THE FUCKING LOO.
[QUOTE=gufu;48602612]Well, so was slavery and monarchy. We're a bit beyond that now.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about all of human society, across every culture and era. You can't really just pass it off as an irrelevancy. We don't even know what a society without any gender organization would look like.
[QUOTE=gufu;48602627]Imagine if trans people would just randomly decide they are a different gender now, instead of actually having to deal with that through their entire lives, until actually getting to the point where they realize their true gender. Oh, and afterwards, totally not having to deal with a huge amount of psychological sessions and therapies, because you can't just claim yourself legaly transgender without approval by a professional psychologist.[/QUOTE]
She only came out about a year ago, it's not like she's been openly trans for a long time now. And does it say anywhere that she is approved by a psychologist, for all we know, she could have never been to a psychologist, nor done any HRT.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48602709]I'm talking about all of human society, across every culture and era. You can't really just pass it off as an irrelevancy. We don't even know what a society without any gender organization would look like.[/QUOTE]
We also don't know of societies which was not divided in any way in political or wealth related ways. Hardly a reason to not aim for such a society.
[editline]2nd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=lyna;48602724]She only came out about a year ago, it's not like she's been openly trans for a long time now. And does it say anywhere that she is approved by a psychologist, for all we know, she could have never been to a psychologist, nor done any HRT.[/QUOTE]
Or maybe she did? Lack of info does not imply either or. However, the fact that school recognized her as transgendered individual, points to the fact that proper paperwork is there.
[QUOTE=nickohlus;48602705]EXACTLY. So instead of making all the other kids uncomfortable, why is it fucking evil to politely request that the ONE student in question deal with it for the time being, and then we have the discussion OUTSIDE OF THE FUCKING LOO.[/QUOTE]
because the others shouldn't feel uncomfortable
you don't create an atmosphere where this is normal (there's no reason why it shouldn't be) by ostracizing trans folk and telling them to "deal with it"
edit: imagine saying the same thing during segregation era
'why make all the white people uncomfortable, why is it fucking evil to politely request that the ONE black person deal with it for the time being'
This is absurd.
We should just rename them to "penis" and "vagina" bathrooms to avoid all this confusion
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;48602799]'why make all the white people uncomfortable, why is it fucking evil to politely request that the ONE black person deal with it for the time being'[/QUOTE]
holy mother of false equivalency fallacies
it's far more reasonable to be uncomfortable around someone of a different sex's genitalia than it is to be around someone of a different race.
when it comes to showers and locker rooms, divide by sex. Unisex bathrooms always exist as well-- it's not anyone's fault that the person in question refuses to use them.
[QUOTE=Lium;48602519]
Furthermore, I'd like to reiterate your point. I'm not sure what you mean by "my idea that everyone is a pretty straight white boy". I'm well aware that quite a lot of people are either female, or a race that isn't white, and have never had an issue with either of these. And I really don't understand what you mean by "pretty", since visual looks don't matter in any way, and nor have I ever suggested otherwise. And finally, "God makes no mistakes"? I'm not even religious, what are you talking about.[/QUOTE]
Let me break it down for you.
[QUOTE]"my idea that everyone is a pretty straight white boy"[/QUOTE]
This term is used to mock anyone who still has very strict views on genders and sexual orientation, not to mention it also fits your title. From Leviticus 20:13
[QUOTE]If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.[/QUOTE]
Would you care to explain why you said this then:
[QUOTE]I'm not even religious, what are you talking about.[/QUOTE]
Either you're trying to hide something, or you're a person with really obsessive views, if not crazy, and when you've been always showing negative attitude towards anything LGBT related, both options work. Pulling out the entire "if someone considers themselves the opposite gender then I can consider myself the king of England" thing is outright stupid and disrespectful to say.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;48602799]because the others shouldn't feel uncomfortable
you don't create an atmosphere where this is normal (there's no reason why it shouldn't be) by ostracizing trans folk and telling them to "deal with it"
edit: imagine saying the same thing during segregation era
'why make all the white people uncomfortable, why is it fucking evil to politely request that the ONE black person deal with it for the time being'[/QUOTE]
"Because the others shouldn't feel uncomfortable."
Look at that sentence for a second.
And you wonder why the opposing side finds that argument unconvincing.
It doesn't appear that you actually understood my argument at all. By asking the trans student to take responsibility for being trans at the moment and see that it's still an emerging topic, we're not ostracizing her at all. On the contrary, we're working towards a way to avoid controversy like this.
You can't expect an instant transition on the part of everyone else in response to hers without some backlash. So why not do it the smart way and try to mediate a bit instead of foisting your opinions on people who don't agree with them?
I always saw bathrooms as this: if you have a dick, go to the boys restroom. If you got a vagina, go to the girls restroom. Of course there are also gender neutral restrooms, but honestly those can make people uncomfortable too.
There just aren't a lot of ways to win this argument without someone calling you a bigoted asshole.
[QUOTE=gufu;48602765]We also don't know of societies which was not divided in any way in political or wealth related ways. Hardly a reason to not aim for such a society.[/QUOTE]
I would argue otherwise for both of those as well. In order to get rid of political differences you would need to brainwash everyone and put every person at an equal ability to lead, and in order to get rid of wealth differences you would need to get rid of all personal ownership. Both things that I see as impossible, if not immoral.
[editline]2nd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=TheDrunkenOne;48602867]Let me break it down for you.
This term is used to mock anyone who still has very strict views on genders and sexual orientation, not to mention it also fits your title. From Leviticus 20:13
Would you care to explain why you said this then:
Either you're trying to hide something, or you're a person with really obsessive views, if not crazy, and when you've been always showing negative attitude towards anything LGBT related, both options work. Pulling out the entire "if someone considers themselves the opposite gender then I can consider myself the king of England" thing is outright stupid and disrespectful to say.[/QUOTE]
This entire post is a personal attack. If you have a point to make, then make it, but all this ad hominem does nothing to further your point.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48602878]I would argue otherwise for both of those as well. In order to get rid of political differences you would need to brainwash everyone and put every person at an equal ability to lead, and in order to get rid of wealth differences you would need to get rid of all personal ownership. Both things that I see as impossible, if not immoral.[/QUOTE]
Or you know, stop electing people from specific circles and only allow them to compete due to monetary overhead one needs to reach to be in politics. Equally, your choice for later is just an extreme jump. Equally, societal divide is based upon the assumption in a value of money as being part of the value of a person. It's not a monetary or physical change, but one of society advancing and not seeing one person over other simply because they have more cars or a bigger house.
And yes, it's terribly unrealistic especially due to ingrained human nature. But all our works are inevitably doomed due to heat death of the universe, after all, so trying our best as individuals, is the only honorable goal we can have. Cheesy as hell, constantly reiterated as a concept through our media, from times immemorial, but hardly false.
If we put effort into studying trans people to see what its all about instead of just fighting about if its real or not, we could get a definite answer.
Probably would shut quite a few people up.
The argument of 200 feeling uncomfortable (let's be honest, actually max 30 at a time) vs 1 misses out that contributing to the level of anxiety, depression and isolation which are almost universal in transgender people in school is equivalent to feeling uncomfortable. It's up to you whether 1 severe depression is greater or less than 30 or 200 'uncomfortable's but implementing a system which forces trans individuals to act based on their assigned gender is more than just making them uncomfortable.
The issue is that cis people (including me) have never had to question our gender, so it's hard to empathise with trans people, but just because you can't empathise with an experience doesn't make it any less real. If you were shoved in a body of the opposite gender, it is highly unlikely that you would not suffer for it.
Additionally, the argument about transracialism and transwashingtonism are offensive because you are inventing them as a ridiculous argument to discredit one which is established as a genuine issue by studies and history. If you genuinely felt like an african american, then that would warrant investigation and sympathy, but seen as you are simply trying to argue that 'you would be skeptical of x, therefore you should be of y' it is merely fallacious and offensive.
With regards to bathrooms, there are 4 options:
Status Quo
Pros
Most people are comfortable
Cons
Continues to make trans people uncomfortable and represent and normalise the systemic discrimination against them.
Allow people to choose
Pros
Trans people feel comfortable and society would eventually grow to accept it
Cons
Most people feel somewhat uncomfortable for a while
Sex Assigned bathrooms
Change the signs from 'Gents' to 'Male' and rididly assign by sex and/or genetalia (alternatively by sexuality but then bi people become problematic to assign)
Neutral Bathrooms
Pros
Potentially the most efficient (with proper urinal vs cubical optimisation you could maximise throughput within a given space)
Cons
Everyone has to get used to a new system
Why are so many (bigoted) people so willing to say "Well this person is male and wants to be female, that's all there is to it. I guess I get to decide to be the other sex too right?"
That's simply not true, there is plenty of scientific evidence supporting the idea that being transgender is visible in the physical structure of the brain and has a link with hormone levels during gestation.
[QUOTE=Foogooman;48602925]Why are so many (bigoted) people so willing to say "Well this person is male and wants to be female, that's all there is to it. I guess I get to decide to be the other sex too right?"
That's simply not true, there is plenty of scientific evidence supporting the idea that being transgender is visible in the physical structure of the brain and has a link with hormone levels during gestation.[/QUOTE]
I'd like to see this evidence from an impartial source
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy18;48603002]I'd like to see this evidence from an impartial source[/QUOTE]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism[/url]
Knock yourself out. Check out each source if you really want to.
[QUOTE=Monkah;48602856]when it comes to showers and locker rooms, divide by sex. Unisex bathrooms always exist as well-- it's not anyone's fault that the person in question refuses to use them.[/QUOTE]
uhm no, i don't think most schools have unisex bathrooms
[QUOTE=nickohlus;48602871]"Because the others shouldn't feel uncomfortable."
Look at that sentence for a second.
And you wonder why the opposing side finds that argument unconvincing.
It doesn't appear that you actually understood my argument at all. By asking the trans student to take responsibility for being trans at the moment and see that it's still an emerging topic, we're not ostracizing her at all. On the contrary, we're working towards a way to avoid controversy like this.
You can't expect an instant transition on the part of everyone else in response to hers without some backlash. So why not do it the smart way and try to mediate a bit instead of foisting your opinions on people who don't agree with them?[/QUOTE]
i'm saying we should create an environment that's not as aggressive towards trans people as the one we have right now. i'm not saying that change will happen overnight, i'm just saying that we shouldn't care that the person we're sharing a bathroom with - which, by the way, isn't exacly a place that's geared for comfort either way - has different genitalia if they are of the same gender as whatever that bathroom is meant for, and we should educate people on that
Whoa since when is Facepunch anti-trans
where did these people come from
[QUOTE=Eric95;48603129]Whoa since when is Facepunch anti-trans
where did these people come from[/QUOTE]
FP has always bounced back and forth between being vocally pro and anti trans. I think it all depends on the first few comments. If they're pro-trans then all the pro-trans people post and if it's anti-trans then it's the opposite.
I've always thought toilets were sexed not gendered anyway
they're set up for how you piss not how you feel
[QUOTE=Mellowbloom;48603150]I've always thought toilets were sexed not gendered anyway
they're set up for how you piss not how you feel[/QUOTE]
not really a lot of difference between bathrooms you know
[QUOTE=SomeRandomGuy18;48603002]I'd like to see this evidence from an impartial source[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956%2810%2900158-5/abstract[/url]
[QUOTE=Eric95;48603129]Whoa since when is Facepunch anti-trans
where did these people come from[/QUOTE]
The woodwork.
I can completely understand both sides of the argument. Its jarring and uncomfortable for female students with the knowledge over so many years a student is a man is now using their bathroom, and its jarring and uncomfortable for the student to keep using the male bathroom while transitioning, even worse if they've felt uncomfortable peeing around men their entire life and want it to stop. However its pretty clear most of the students walking out have been influenced alot by bigoted sources rather than just being uncomfortable.
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