200 Missouri High Schoolers Walk Out Because Trans Student Wants to Use Girls’ Bathroom
491 replies, posted
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604222]
Being identifiable by a majority of the population as a woman without any further explanation.[/QUOTE]
so in other words an arbitrary definition with so much variation that it becomes essentially meaningless. Are you insinuating that butch women should go to the mens room? What about effeminate men? Or androgynous people?
Maybe instead of arbitrary, essentially meaningless definitions we simply use identified gender
[editline]2nd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604234]Kyle... you previously said that your argument isn't based on this situation. So how could it possibly be an answer to a comment specifically about this situation?[/QUOTE]
Hes clearly talking about restrooms in his post...
[QUOTE=lyna;48604215]be real, he/she IS an outlier, and doesn't fit in with both females(for now) and males. Once he actually becomes passable then sure use the female restroom as much as you want, but for the time being, for all intents and purposes, he's either a male or neither.[/QUOTE]
She*
She's not a man, so don't refer to her as "he."
And she's a woman. Let her use the women's restroom. Pulling up "outlier" clauses is ridiculous. No need to treat trans people like second-class citizems because some transphobic people can't handle them.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48604226][quote]selfquoting[/quote].[/QUOTE]
That might apply to a bathroom that is public, where no one knows anyone. It is a different situation in a highschool. The people in there know who she is and who he was. Its not as simple as women being so dumb that they can't spot someone pre-op. If we are going to do the self quoting thing then;
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;48602123]Being uncomfortable does not allow them to change bathrooms. I said this in an earlier post but no-one seemed to notice:
[B]If being uncomfortable is the only argument being put forward, then it loses[/B] because the result of this position causes far more people to be uncomfortable in a way not unlike the person complaining originally. It is a matter of having to be in a bathroom with people that you "think" are not part of your gender or otherwise make you uncomfortable.
There, I say again, if being uncomfortable is the thing to be avoided then, atleast for the time being, in that school, they ought to choose the many over the one.
It is a variation on the train car problem. If you could flip a switch an have a run away (metaphoric) train car of discomfort hit one person or 200, who would you choose?[/QUOTE]
Not to mention the fact that the person in question is not using the allotted gender neutral bathrooms because they refuse to acknowlege that they are not exactly the same as all the girls. To engage in some sort of suspense of disbelief is silly, and to act as if it is inconceivable why the other girls feel uncomfortable about someone who up until relatively recently was a considered male in their minds.
[editline]ads[/editline]
Also please excuse my liberal interchangable use of the words bathroom and changeroom.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;48604269]She*
She's not a man, so don't refer to her as "he."
And she's a woman. Let her use the women's restroom. Pulling up "outlier" clauses is ridiculous. No need to treat trans people like second-class citizems because some transphobic people can't handle them.[/QUOTE]
She thinks she's a woman, 200 people think she's a man. She should've just went to the gender neutral bathroom smh
[QUOTE=Kyle902;48604242]so in other words an arbitrary definition with so much variation that it becomes essentially meaningless. Are you insinuating that butch women should go to the mens room? What about effeminate men? Or androgynous people?[/QUOTE]
Firstly, there's no variation at all. It's a single description that applies equally to all people.
Secondly, butch women don't look like men, and effeminate men don't look like women. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone who really couldn't be identified as one gender and/or sex or the other. Studies have even gone so far as to suggest that people can identify gay people by nothing more than their looks. ([URL]http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/05/16/study-finds-gaydar-up-to-80-percent-accurate-on-sexuality[/URL])
People are far better at seeing differences in these types of things than you're giving them credit for.
[QUOTE=lyna;48604215]be real, he/she IS an outlier, and doesn't fit in with both females(for now) and males. Once he actually becomes passable then sure use the female restroom as much as you want, but for the time being, for all intents and purposes, he's either a male or neither.[/QUOTE]
Not all cis women look like what we would see as a woman either. Appearance really isn't a good way to decide this
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604323]Firstly, there's no variation at all. It's a single description that applies equally to all people.
Secondly, butch women don't look like men, and effeminate men don't look like women. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone who really couldn't be identified as one gender and/or sex or the other. Studies have even gone so far as to suggest that people can identify gay people by nothing more than their looks. ([URL]http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/05/16/study-finds-gaydar-up-to-80-percent-accurate-on-sexuality[/URL])
People are far better at seeing differences in these types of things than you're giving them credit for.[/QUOTE]
Sure, it may be true that it's rare. But there are always going to be outliers whom people can't discern the sex of.
[QUOTE=lyna;48604318]She thinks she's a woman, 200 people think she's a man. She should've just went to the gender neutral bathroom smh[/QUOTE]
There's no thinking. She's a woman. Period. 200 people are being transphobic, and so are you.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;48604401]There's no thinking. She's a woman. Period. 200 people are being transphobic, and so are you.[/QUOTE]
Just realized that dude's a Russian. You might have some difficulties there.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;48604400] Sure, it may be true that it's rare. But there are always going to be outliers whom people can't discern the sex of.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but you don't make general policy* catering to the tiny minority.
*By general policy, I mean applicable to everyone equally.
I dunno, the moment she said she doesnt wants to use gender neutral restrooms is when she invalidated any claim she had. Its pretty apparent she doesnt belong to any side at this point of transformation.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604436]I agree, but you don't make general policy* catering to the tiny minority.
*By general policy, I mean applicable to everyone equally.[/QUOTE]
Or maybe people should be able to decide for themselves, rather than be reliant on opinions of majority?
The fact that people want to legally enforce which bathrooms people are required to use is ridiculous.
[QUOTE=gufu;48604496]Or maybe people should be able to decide for themselves, rather than be reliant on opinions of majority?[/QUOTE]
That's a pretty meaningless sentiment. There are plenty of things all throughout society were people don't get to decide between all possible choices.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604500]That's a pretty meaningless sentiment. There are plenty of things all throughout society were people don't get to decide between all possibly choices.[/QUOTE]
Sure, but this is entirely based around the individual. Someone using a specific bathroom of their choice harms absolutely no one.
[QUOTE=gufu;48604496]The fact that people want to legally enforce which bathrooms people are required to use is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
I'm glad you think so, but obviously people disagree.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604500]There are plenty of things all throughout society were people don't get to decide between all possible choices.[/QUOTE]
We don't need another one, then.
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604509]I'm glad you think so, but obviously people disagree.[/QUOTE]
People can disagree over a color of a yogurt container. That's hardly a reason for blocking someone from doing something.
[QUOTE=gufu;48604510]We don't need another one, then.
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
People can disagree over a color of a yogurt container. That's hardly a reason for blocking someone from doing something.[/QUOTE]
You're literally just saying, "My opinion is better than their opinion."
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604520]You're literally just saying, "I'm right and they're wrong."[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that someone made a choice, and others are trying to deny it, despite it not harming them in any way.
[QUOTE=gufu;48604524]I'm saying that someone made a choice, and others are trying to deny it, despite it not harming them in any way.[/QUOTE]
If lots of people are uncomfortable about it, then it's obviously causing some harm.
Threatening someone with violence doesn't "harm" anyone either, yet lots of people see it as something wrong and we've made it illegal.
And as a sidenote, I always find it amusing when people point out that what other person says is an opinion. We all have opinions, hence the point of the discussion, to try to prove our opinions superior. Shitty opinions exist, after all.
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604527]If lots of people are uncomfortable about it, then it's obviously causing some harm.[/QUOTE]
I doubt lots of people are uncomfortable by it. And most importantly, by their own choice, rather than ingrained fear.
[QUOTE=gufu;48604528]And as a sidenote, I always find it amusing when people point out that what other person says is an opinion. We all have opinions, hence the point of the discussion, to try to prove our opinions superior. Shitty opinions exist, after all.[/QUOTE]
Right, but you're just saying that your opinion is better because... it is.
[editline]2nd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=gufu;48604528]I doubt lots of people are uncomfortable by it. And most importantly, by their own choice, rather than ingrained fear.[/QUOTE]
Doubt all you want, but based on their own words, they are.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604531]Right, but you're just saying that your opinion is better because... it is.[/quote]
Because it respects a freedom of individual's action which cause no true harm to anyone.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604531]Doubt all you want, but based on their own words, they are.[/QUOTE]
They are a minority of a majority in their own rights. Even of those 200 students, majority are likely to only join in because they wanted to skip class.
[QUOTE=gufu;48604537]Because it respects a freedom of individual's action which cause no true harm to anyone.[/QUOTE]
You're just begging the question by starting with the assumption that it doesn't cause harm.
[QUOTE]They are a minority of a majority in their own rights. Even of those 200 students, majority are likely to only join in because they wanted to skip class.[/QUOTE]
"likely." Do you really know that? Maybe yes, maybe no. Would you be saying the same thing if students had walked out in the name of trans rights.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604549]You're just begging the question by starting with the assumption that it doesn't cause harm.[/quote]
It's a pretty fair assumption that no one is going to commit suicide over having someone else in a next stall over, with whom they do not interact at all. Meanwhile, having 200 people either directly (people who initiated the walk) or indirectly (oh hey, excuse to leave classroom) denying a person their gender identity, is pretty goddamn bad, and sure to cause harm.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604549]"likely." Do you really know that? Maybe yes, maybe no. I'm sure you wouldn't be saying the same thing if students had walked out in the name of trans rights.[/QUOTE]
I am sure it really is hard to stand up to the tyranny of the transgender individuals in their efforts to try to overtake all the wrong bathrooms, and thereby all 200 of those kids deserve a pat on the back.
[QUOTE=gufu;48604557]It's a pretty fair assumption that no one is going to commit suicide over having someone else in a next stall over, with whom they do not interact at all. Meanwhile, having 200 people either directly (people who initiated the walk) or indirectly (oh hey, excuse to leave classroom) denying a person their gender identity, is pretty goddamn bad, and sure to cause harm.[/QUOTE]
Firstly, suicide is not the only form of harm. So that's fairly irrelevant.
Secondly, the female students feeling uncomfortable having Perry in the girls locker room is not denying her from her gender identity. She is free to feel, dress, and act in whatever way she pleases. This is not effected by using the girls locker room instead of a neutral restroom.
[QUOTE]I am sure it really is hard to stand up to the tyranny of the transgender individuals in their efforts to try to overtake all the wrong bathrooms, and thereby all 200 of those kids deserve a pat on the back.[/QUOTE]
Trivialization is easy, but it's irrelevant to what you responded to.
[B]Edit[/B]: Might be best to ignore the rest of this post, but I'll leave it otherwise alone as demonstration that even someone who thinks themselves a critical thinker like myself can be temporarily convinced of a falsehood by disreputable/misleading sources of information.
I'm just going to leave these couple of links here. Think what you will of them, but I think nearly everyone in this thread is misinformed and if you so wish the truth is out there for you to consider. We have a whole society that is tripping over its own dicks in a misguided attempt to be kind to these people with gender dysphoria and we're not helping them in the right way, we're only enabling a mental disorder here and the prevailing opinion right now seems to be that any questioning whatsoever of a person wanting to be or believing they are a different gender is some kind of ignorant bigotry. The really unfortunate thing is that most of modern psychiatry is completely dominated by that viewpoint (because of being manipulated to that position by those leading the transgender agenda in our political system) and doesn't realize all the harm they're doing by telling everyone to enable the delusions of autogynephiliacs, which is dangerous to us and even moreso to them. Take a closer look at this issue and make up your own mind.
[url]http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15145/[/url]
[url]https://autogynephiliatruth.wordpress.com/page/2/[/url]
Personally, I never really questioned how most of liberally-inclined society supported transgender behavior myself until I stumbled upon this information awhile back. I'm not encouraging hate or anything like that against these people, but I don't think we're doing transgender people a service by tripping over ourselves trying in a vain display of kindness to be supportive of their delusions.
[QUOTE=Ticon;48604582]
[url]http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15145/[/url]
[url]https://autogynephiliatruth.wordpress.com/page/2/[/url]
[/QUOTE]
10/10 Conservative Think Tank and Blog advertisement, would commend.
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604580]Firstly, suicide is not the only form of harm. So that's fairly irrelevant.[/quote]
No, we're discussing harm, so all forms of harm are relevant. And some are more obviously more likely and dangerous than others.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604580]
Secondly, the female students feeling uncomfortable having Perry in the girls locker room is not denying her from her gender identity. She is free to feel, dress, and act in whatever way she pleases. This is not effected by using the girls locker room instead of a neutral restroom.
[/quote]
Except that it does. You are saying that she cannot use the girl's locker room, because she is not a girl. You specifically say that she is not a girl, because she does not look like one.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604580]Trivialization is easy, but it's irrelevant to what you responded to.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, most things that you post are irrelevant, and I still respond to them. So hey, let's go on.
[QUOTE=Ticon;48604582]I'm just going to leave these couple of links here. Think what you will of them, but I think nearly everyone in this thread is misinformed and if you so wish the truth is out there for you to consider. We have a whole society that is tripping over its own dicks in a misguided attempt to be kind to these people with gender dysphoria and we're not helping them in the right way, we're only enabling a mental disorder here and the prevailing opinion right now seems to be that any questioning whatsoever of a person wanting to be or believing they are a different gender is some kind of ignorant bigotry. The really unfortunate thing is that most of modern psychiatry is completely dominated by that viewpoint (because of being manipulated to that position by those leading the transgender agenda in our political system) and doesn't realize all the harm they're doing by telling everyone to enable the delusions of autogynephiliacs, which is dangerous to us and even moreso to them. Take a closer look at this issue and make up your own mind.
[url]http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15145/[/url]
[url]https://autogynephiliatruth.wordpress.com/page/2/[/url]
Personally, I never really questioned how most of liberally-inclined society supported transgender behavior myself until I stumbled upon this information awhile back. I'm not encouraging hate or anything like that against these people, but I don't think we're doing transgender people a service by tripping over ourselves trying in a vain display of kindness to be supportive of their delusions.[/QUOTE]
What a bunch of bullshit
[QUOTE=gufu;48604599]No, we're discussing harm, so all forms of harm are relevant. And some are more obviously more likely and dangerous than others.[/QUOTE]
I said that you shouldn't start with the assumption that it doesn't cause harm because it's begging the question, and you responded that it doesn't cause suicide... as if that somehow justifies your assumption of it not causing any harm at all. It's irrelevant because not causing suicide doesn't in any way show that it doesn't cause harm.
[QUOTE]Except that it does. You are saying that she cannot use the girl's locker room, because she is not a girl. You specifically say that she is not a girl, because she does not look like one.[/QUOTE]
No, I'm saying that having the mental state of a girl isn't the only requirement to using the girl's locker room.
[QUOTE]To be honest, most things that you post are irrelevant, and I still respond to them. So hey, let's go on.[/QUOTE]
When I say something you've said is irrelevant I happily explain why. If you want to point out what, and exactly why, something I've said is irrelevant, then please be my guest.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604623]I said that you shouldn't start with the assumption that it doesn't cause harm, and you responded that it doesn't cause suicide... as if that in any way shows that I was wrong.[/quote]
Well, if you did a little bit more thinking and trying to point things as irrelevant, perhaps you should bring up an example of actual harm (feeling of uneasiness do not count, as stress is a day to day ocurance) that this might cause?
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604623]
No, I'm saying that having the mental state of a girl isn't the only requirement to using the girl's locker room.[/quote]
Well, I disagree with that. A mental state of being a woman should be sufficient to be classified as one. Because our mental well being is the most important part of ourselves.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48604623]
When I say something you've said is irrelevant I happily explain why. If you want to point out what, and exactly why, something I've said is irrelevant, then please be my guest.[/QUOTE]
For example, how suicide, a form of harm, is irrelevant, in discussion of harm.
[QUOTE=gufu;48604599]10/10 Conservative Think Tank and Blog advertisement, would commend.
[/QUOTE]
If these sources are wrong I'd like to know bit more than that. Can you show that these assertions in opposition to transgender enabling made here are false?
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