200 Missouri High Schoolers Walk Out Because Trans Student Wants to Use Girls’ Bathroom
491 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Ticon;48604652]If these sources are wrong I'd like to know bit more than that. Can you show that these assertions in opposition to transgender enabling made here are false?[/QUOTE]
Well, I am not sure I can do that, since you stated that psychologists, people who are qualified to identify, study, and procure actual facts about transgender individuals are not trustworthy. You have, after all, entirely thrown away an expert opinion, in favor of a politically biased information creation source.
[QUOTE=Ticon;48604582]I'm just going to leave these couple of links here. Think what you will of them, but I think nearly everyone in this thread is misinformed and if you so wish the truth is out there for you to consider. We have a whole society that is tripping over its own dicks in a misguided attempt to be kind to these people with gender dysphoria and we're not helping them in the right way, we're only enabling a mental disorder here and the prevailing opinion right now seems to be that any questioning whatsoever of a person wanting to be or believing they are a different gender is some kind of ignorant bigotry. The really unfortunate thing is that most of modern psychiatry is completely dominated by that viewpoint (because of being manipulated to that position by those leading the transgender agenda in our political system) and doesn't realize all the harm they're doing by telling everyone to enable the delusions of autogynephiliacs, which is dangerous to us and even moreso to them. Take a closer look at this issue and make up your own mind.
[url]http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15145/[/url]
[url]https://autogynephiliatruth.wordpress.com/page/2/[/url]
Personally, I never really questioned how most of liberally-inclined society supported transgender behavior myself until I stumbled upon this information awhile back. I'm not encouraging hate or anything like that against these people, but I don't think we're doing transgender people a service by tripping over ourselves trying in a vain display of kindness to be supportive of their delusions.[/QUOTE]
These are not legitimate sources, try finding a psychiatry study that is peer-reviewed.
[editline]3rd September 2015[/editline]
Modern psychiatrist are going to look at facts and not be politically motivated, that is how science works. Unless you're telling me thousands upon thousands of psychiatrists and hundreds of psychiatric studies are biased towards transgender people because of some vast left wing conspiracy, then try again. And even if it were a mental disorder, until we invent medication for transgender individuals I think it's best we give them what they want as it's no harm to the rest of us.
I may have been hasty here then, what I linked seemed to make sense to me (it doesn't help if the source seeks to discredit the experts) but perhaps I wasn't critical enough in considering it. I'm always happy to have anything false I may have been convinced of appropriately criticized. The primary reason I hadn't yet been convinced otherwise is because when I originally came upon what I had linked I was unable to subsequently find an opposing more reputable source specifically debunking the primary claims made in those links. Still looking, but right now as far as I can tell going to places like apa.org I only find vague summaries of the consensus, but perhaps that's only because it's not like it's there to specifically refute whatever I run into saying otherwise.
Feels like I've run into this before unwittingly. Prague University comes to mind as a disinformation source I've also run into before, but that came off as a lot more obvious to me and I didn't fall for its bullshit. What's with these conservative think tanks masquerading around as reputable sources of information? It's like I can't avoid running into disinformation specifically meant to throw me off when I go to research any given debated topic.
When did facepunch get so pro transgender?
Its a mental disease, its been proven there is nothing acceptable about comforting a person
Just because he or she has a mental issue which is suddenly socially acceptable.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting, Trolling" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
What the hell is it that people think will happen if we have gender neutral bathrooms/locker-rooms anyhow? Are the men and boys so utterly incapable of controlling themselves that they're just going to out and attack anyone different? Are the women so completely fragile that seeing a dick is going to psychologically shatter them? It's senselessly prudish. Who the hell cares if you see someone else naked, regardless of sex or gender identification? It's just a naked body, it's not going to hurt anyone.
If we didn't have such shamefully misguided ideas about how we should treat nudity this wouldn't be a problem. What is the reason we have sex-separate washrooms and locker rooms in the first place? We don't generally have them in our homes. Is there something intrinsic to a place you undress, or piss and shit in, that makes it completely intolerable to be in the presence of someone with different genitalia? I don't understand.
If it's a problem of someone's behavior making others uncomfortable - shit, have you been in a locker room? It's certainly not restricted to gender, or indeed locker rooms, whether or not someone fucks around with other people when they're feeling vulnerable. If it's a matter of sexual arousal being somehow disruptive (which is the only conclusion I can really think of here) then this just glosses over the existence of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people - who handily outnumber trans people.
I'm less frustrated that people don't understand this so much as I'm frustrated by what seems to be an effort to [B]not[/B] understand it.
[quote]When did facepunch get so pro transgender?
Its a mental disease, its been proven there is nothing acceptable about comforting a person
Just because he or she has a mental issue which is suddenly socially acceptable.[/quote]
Gender dysphoria is a form of mental illness brought about by what is likely a neurological condition of being transgender.
It seems like this fiction of facepunch's hivemind is pro-trans because people might actually have some manner of compassion and understanding of what they go through. There's nothing acceptable about...? What? It's not suddenly socially acceptable. If you read the news article or any other like it you'd see it's obviously only becoming mildly socially acceptable as people begin to understand it. There's nothing wrong with that. Are you also going to say that people shouldn't comfort those suffering from depression because we've [I]pussified[/I] our culture? Just treat the disease and not pander to some sad sack and his "emotions"?
[QUOTE=BloodYScar;48604839]When did facepunch get so pro transgender?
Its a mental disease, its been proven there is nothing acceptable about comforting a person
Just because he or she has a mental issue which is suddenly socially acceptable.[/QUOTE]
Well, ever since fucking and shunning people who have mental issues is a terrible thing, and it helps them greatly to go through the transition, helping them live happy lives?
[QUOTE=BloodYScar;48604839]When did facepunch get so pro transgender?
Its a mental disease, its been proven there is nothing acceptable about comforting a person
Just because he or she has a mental issue which is suddenly socially acceptable.[/QUOTE]
Psychologists already tried curing gender dysphoria but it wasn't deemed effective. If they're given the proper tools and support to help them transition, there's nothing preventing a transgender person from living (mostly) normally save for the actions of others. Unless you'd rather they just kill themselves or something.
[QUOTE=Ticon;48604782]I may have been hasty here then, what I linked seemed to make sense to me (it doesn't help if the source seeks to discredit the experts) but perhaps I wasn't critical enough in considering it. I'm always happy to have anything false I may have been convinced of appropriately criticized. The primary reason I hadn't yet been convinced otherwise is because when I originally came upon what I had linked I was unable to subsequently find an opposing more reputable source specifically debunking the primary claims made in those links. Still looking, but right now as far as I can tell going to places like apa.org I only find vague summaries of the consensus, but perhaps that's only because it's not like it's there to specifically refute whatever I run into saying otherwise.
Feels like I've run into this before unwittingly. Prague University comes to mind as a disinformation source I've also run into before, but that came off as a lot more obvious to me and I didn't fall for its bullshit. What's with these conservative think tanks masquerading around as reputable sources of information? It's like I can't avoid running into disinformation specifically meant to throw me off when I go to research any given debated topic.[/QUOTE]
It's okay, I've fallen for stuff like this in my past too. Just try and watch out for it.
[QUOTE=elfbarf;48604869]Psychologists already tried curing gender dysphoria but it wasn't deemed effective. If they're given the proper tools and support to help them transition, there's nothing preventing a transgender person from living (mostly) normally save for the actions of others. Unless you'd rather they just kill themselves or something.[/QUOTE]
In fact if you actually look it up the APA states that pretty much the only way to adequately deal with gender dysphoria is to let them transition and support them, and I'm pretty sure psychologists know better about this shit than you do.
In fact here's some quotes
[quote=APA]A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.
According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."[/quote]
[quote=APA]How can I be supportive of transgender family members, friends, or significant others?
Educate yourself about transgender issues by reading books, attending conferences, and consulting with transgender experts. Be aware of your attitudes concerning people with gender-nonconforming appearance or behavior.
Know that transgender people have membership in various sociocultural identity groups (e.g., race, social class, religion, age, disability, etc.) and there is not one universal way to look or be transgender.
Use names and pronouns that are appropriate to the person’s gender presentation and identity; if in doubt, ask.
Don’t make assumptions about transgender people’s sexual orientation, desire for hormonal or medical treatment, or other aspects of their identity or transition plans. If you have a reason to know (e.g., you are a physician conducting a necessary physical exam or you are a person who is interested in dating someone that you’ve learned is transgender), ask.
Don’t confuse gender nonconformity with being transgender. Not all people who appear androgynous or gender nonconforming identify as transgender or desire gender affirmation treatment.
Keep the lines of communication open with the transgender person in your life.
Get support in processing your own reactions. It can take some time to adjust to seeing someone you know well transitioning. Having someone close to you transition will be an adjustment and can be challenging, especially for partners, parents, and children.
Seek support in dealing with your feelings. You are not alone. Mental health professionals and support groups for family, friends, and significant others of transgender people can be useful resources.
Advocate for transgender rights, including social and economic justice and appropriate psychological care.
Familiarize yourself with the local and state or provincial laws that protect transgender people from discrimination.[/quote]
[url=http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx]source[/url]
don't try to pretend there's something 'mentally wrong' with us to excuse being bigoted, because it's got no psychological backing (looking at you BloodYScar)
My take on these matters has always been that people should be free to be whomever they want, but the world should not be forced to accept them. Personal freedom goes both ways.
[QUOTE=V12US;48604907]My take on these matters has always been that people should be free to be whomever they want, but the world should not be forced to accept them. Personal freedom goes both ways.[/QUOTE]
Alright, girlfriend.
[QUOTE=V12US;48604907]My take on these matters has always been that people should be free to be whomever they want, but the world should not be forced to accept them. Personal freedom goes both ways.[/QUOTE]
Except when they should be. Gay marriage and desegregation and the racial equality we have now in America didn't happen because ~the world was ready to accept them~.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;48604927]Except when they should be. Gay marriage and desegregation and the racial equality we have now in America didn't happen because ~the world was ready to accept them~.[/QUOTE]
Except it did.
In a perfect world, everyone would be accepted. But we don't live in a perfect world. There's a reason Utopia translates to "nowhere" in Latin. You cannot force people to accept others. Acceptance like that grows over time in culture, as society acclimatizes to a new idea or form of identity. Forcing people to accept only results in backlash and can accomplish the opposite of what you're trying to achieve.
Which is why I believe mutual freedom is a good middle ground that will eventually lead to acceptance.
[QUOTE=V12US;48604962]Except it did.
In a perfect world, everyone would be accepted. But we don't live in a perfect world. There's a reason Utopia translates to "nowhere" in Latin. You cannot force people to accept others. Acceptance like that grows over time in culture, as society acclimatizes to a new idea or form of identity. Forcing people to accept only results in backlash and can accomplish the opposite of what you're trying to achieve.
Which is why I believe mutual freedom is a good middle ground that will eventually lead to acceptance.[/QUOTE]
Right, I guess I must have misinterpreted all this then
[img]https://papertreiger.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/race-mixing-is-communism.jpg[/img]
[t]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Pr0j2EBAsQI/UX5jUXm29cI/AAAAAAAABUA/uOGfM6xHink/s1600/page-99-Huddled-from-hose-.jpg[/t]
It must have been in my own imagination, everyone in America just started holding hands and singing and we all just got along and that's how racism ended
I also must have misinterpreted the recent supreme court decision, instead of that, it must have been that everyone in America got asked and only then when we had a 100 percent approval rating was gay marriage legalized without any opposition at all
[QUOTE=V12US;48604907]My take on these matters has always been that people should be free to be whomever they want, but the world should not be forced to accept them. Personal freedom goes both ways.[/QUOTE]
You sound like one of those people in the deep south who construes "not being a dick to gay people" as an imposition on their religious freedom.
[QUOTE=LegndNikko;48604401]There's no thinking. She's a woman. Period. 200 people are being transphobic, and so are you.[/QUOTE]
200 people are transphobic because they're uncomfortable with someone who has a penis entering their restroom. There's being progressive, and then there is catering. Stop blindly defending a transgender person. She should use the gender-neutral restroom, and develop herself as a woman elsewhere.
[QUOTE=Chernobyl426;48605059]200 people are transphobic because they're uncomfortable with someone who has a penis entering their restroom. There's being progressive, and then there is catering. Stop blindly defending a transgender person. She should use the gender-neutral restroom, and develop herself as a woman elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
Or, 200 students can fuck themselves and their stupid opinions. What's she going to do? Ogle them? Should we ban lesbians from the women's locker room then? Rape them? Not fucking likely, and she'd get beat to shit if she tried. So what's the big deal? There is no rational, consistent reason to prevent them from using the bathroom.
Yes, at some point you really do have to just tell idiots that their opinions can fuck off and they can deal with it. We can't wait around for everyone and their fucking mother to be ~comfy~ with equality. I'm sure there were a lot of awkward mornings on the bus sitting next to black people before everyone got over it. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges]We just did it recently, and it's been delicious.[/url]
In other words, the only message these students ought to get back is 'deal with it and get the fuck back to class'.
[QUOTE=Chernobyl426;48605059]200 people are transphobic because they're uncomfortable with someone who has a penis entering their restroom. There's being progressive, and then there is catering. Stop blindly defending a transgender person. She should use the gender-neutral restroom, and develop herself as a woman elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
Are you expecting a person to literally remove their identity just because someone else wants the to?
[QUOTE=Chernobyl426;48605059]200 people are transphobic because they're uncomfortable with someone who has a penis entering their restroom. There's being progressive, and then there is catering. Stop blindly defending a transgender person. She should use the gender-neutral restroom, and develop herself as a woman elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
"oh woe is me I have literally 0% of seeing this trans persons penis. Its like I'm being visually molested!!"
Get over yourself
Not really understanding why the comfort of 200 is less important than the comfort of one but maybe this isn't an argument I should be a part of. I mean, it's not like there isn't an alternative for Perry already.
[QUOTE=Dissolution;48605104]Not really understanding why the comfort of 200 is less important than the comfort of one but maybe this isn't an argument I should be a part of. I mean, it's not like there isn't an alternative for Perry already.[/QUOTE]
Because the lack of comfort with her is basically those 200 people saying "You are not a girl, Perry, you are a guy". Because if they saw her as a girl, then they wouldn't have done that.
[QUOTE=Dissolution;48605104]Not really understanding why the comfort of 200 is less important than the comfort of one but maybe this isn't an argument I should be a part of. I mean, it's not like there isn't an alternative for Perry already.[/QUOTE]
Because if the world went off very simple judgement like 'what makes the majority comfortable', no minority group would have any rights at all, ever. [I]That's why we're [U]minorities[/U].[/I]
[QUOTE=Dissolution;48605104]Not really understanding why the comfort of 200 is less important than the comfort of one but maybe this isn't an argument I should be a part of. I mean, it's not like there isn't an alternative for Perry already.[/QUOTE]
Its more like causing a small amount of discomfort to 200 is less important then causing a large amount of pain to one individual.
Let's put the wishes of one person who is uncooperative with using a gender-neutral restroom over the wishes of 200 other people. Sorry I didn't know everyone who wasn't a transgender or a knight in shining armor for them was a transphobic asshole, and should fuck right off. The second you start telling 99% of the school to fuck off and to get over it is when you're gonna be dealing with extreme backlash. Good luck keeping that transgender kid safe when majority of the school doesn't wanna deal with someone in what they see as the wrong restroom.
[QUOTE=AtomicWaffle;48604999]You sound like one of those people in the deep south who construes "not being a dick to gay people" as an imposition on their religious freedom.[/QUOTE]
There's a lot of grey area inbetween. Pidgeonholing people into one extreme end or the other is also kind of a dick thing to do.
I believe transgender people have the freedom to be whatever gender they want, but I also believe that women can be uneasy in the presence of some male to female transgender people, especially in places that would be limited to women. I've seen a video of this person. She wore an obvious wig and no or very loose underwear, so you could see a dong flopping behind her skirt. I could understand why some women would feel uncomfortable being in a space like a woman's bathroom with someone like her.
You often hear that people need to look at the big picture, or the grand scale of things. But I think the same thing goes the other way around as well. By looking solely at the big picture you often end up generalizing things that are far more complex than you believe they are.
[QUOTE=Chernobyl426;48605133]Let's put the wishes of one person who is uncooperative with using a gender-neutral restroom over the wishes of 200 other people. Sorry I didn't know everyone who wasn't a transgender or a knight in shining armor for them was a transphobic asshole, and should fuck right off. The second you start telling 99% of the school to fuck off and to get over it is when you're gonna be dealing with extreme backlash. Good luck keeping that transgender kid safe when majority of the school doesn't wanna deal with someone in what they see as the wrong restroom.[/QUOTE]
Let me put this mildly so you can perhaps gain some small sliver of understanding.
The "wishes of 200 other people" literally mean nothing. What precisely do they have at stake in this? Oh yeah thats right extremely mild discomfort.
Meanwhile that "one person" has quite a bit at stake here. Namely the ability to use the restroom of her identified gender.
If we caved into the demands of the majority based on trivial discomfort then minorities would still be segregated to ghettos and it would be illegal to be poor. Are you starting to see the inherent flaw in your shitty line of reasoning now?
[QUOTE=Chernobyl426;48605133]Let's put the wishes of one person who is uncooperative with using a gender-neutral restroom over the wishes of 200 other people. Sorry I didn't know everyone who wasn't a transgender or a knight in shining armor for them was a transphobic asshole, and should fuck right off. The second you start telling 99% of the school to fuck off and to get over it is when you're gonna be dealing with extreme backlash. Good luck keeping that transgender kid safe when majority of the school doesn't wanna deal with someone in what they see as the wrong restroom.[/QUOTE]
I didn't realize only 201 people went to the school
[quote]Another 30 to 40 held their own gathering in support of Perry[/quote]
or that these ones didn't count
also yeah, I can't think of any other time we gave someone the educational environment they deserved and defended them no matter how much it put them at risk and how much it pissed off the rest of the student base and it turned out to be the right thing to do
[t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/101st_Airborne_at_Little_Rock_Central_High.jpg[/t]
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Rock_Nine]oh wait[/url]
[quote]I could understand why some women would feel uncomfortable being in a space like a woman's bathroom with someone like her.[/quote]
I can't, though. What do they think is going to happen because someone has a dick?
[QUOTE=V12US;48605136]
I believe transgender people have the freedom to be whatever gender they want, but I also believe that women can be uneasy in the presence of some male to female transgender people, especially in places that would be limited to women. I've seen a video of this person.[/quote]
Well then they should get over it. White people being uncomfortable around black people isn't a valid excuse so why would this be?
Not only that but unless you're groping everyone around you constantly you probably won't be able to tell if someones MtF making it a complete non issue.
[quote]She wore an obvious wig and no or very loose underwear, so you could see a dong flopping behind her skirt. I could understand why some women would feel uncomfortable being in a space like a woman's bathroom with someone like her.[/quote]
What video would this be?
[quote]
You often hear that people need to look at the big picture, or the grand scale of things. But I think the same thing goes the other way around as well. By looking solely at the big picture you often end up generalizing things that are far more complex than you believe they are.[/QUOTE]
I have a perfect concept of the grand scale of things in this specific situation.
She didn't want to understand the gender neutral bathroom and I totally understand why girls would feel uncomfortable with her entering a girls bathroom. Yes, she may think she's a girl but in the end she'll always been born a dude and there's nothing that can change that, no matter how much she wants it.
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