Satanists Want Own Statue Outside of Oklahoma Capitol Building
216 replies, posted
[QUOTE=dai;44706326]and there's biblical scriptures telling you to stone people to death for wearing mixed fabrics???
between the two I think the lavey style commandments(/suggestions?) are wholly relevant to modern society, give or take the meaning of 'destroy' as he often used. It tells you that if someone 'bothers' you, you tell them to stop. [B]Then, if they continue[/B], do what needs to be done to get them the fuck out of your face because their continued existence in your life is detrimental to you. It's talking on a grand scale of how they affect you and your doings as a person, not like "this one dude looked at me funny ima go bash his face in"[/QUOTE]
I'm not trying to say this is worse than Christianity I'm just saying it seems like a lot of people gravitate to Satanism to be edgy and glossing over the shit bits when in fact they could pick from a huge range of non-theistic philosophical schools that would probably apply more realistically.
Like philosophically it's so close to something like Hedonism that there's literally no reason not to just call yourself a hedonist because I'm 90% sure the people who say they are a satanist have no interest in the actual mysticism in any way, they just think identifying as existentialist/hedonist/stoic/whatever sounds too long and complicated
I mean I know sitting down and reading a bunch of essays and pieces by Nietzsche or Kant or Hegel isn't as radical to say as 'reading the satanic bible' but you'll get a lot more legitimate stuff out of it. And likewise, I'd turn Christians towards Utilitarian philosophy or something of the like. The difference is I don't know of anyone claiming to be a Christian to be cool.
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;44706596]I'm not trying to say this is worse than Christianity I'm just saying it seems like a lot of people gravitate to Satanism to be edgy and glossing over the shit bits when in fact they could pick from a huge range of non-theistic philosophical schools that would probably apply more realistically.
Like philosophically it's so close to something like Hedonism that there's literally no reason not to just call yourself a hedonist because I'm 90% sure the people who say they are a satanist have no interest in the actual mysticism in any way, they just think identifying as existentialist/hedonist/stoic/whatever sounds too long and complicated
I mean I know sitting down and reading a bunch of essays and pieces by Nietzsche or Kant or Hegel isn't as radical to say as 'reading the satanic bible' but you'll get a lot more legitimate stuff out of it. And likewise, I'd turn Christians towards Utilitarian philosophy or something of the like. The difference is I don't know of anyone claiming to be a Christian to be cool.[/QUOTE]
high school dips who do it to be edgy probably don't read into anything other than "fuck yeah"
at an absolute core value, it's like hedonism with a bit of robotic law, with the last law flipped; self preservation takes precedence over gratification of your own will or the will of others in the case of attempting to aid those who call for help.
Someone refresh my memory though, doesn't the laveyan bible also state that the mysticism provided is more just suggestions for how to focus and meditate? Like, the point is the meditation, not the ritual itself.
[QUOTE=Conspirator;44705988]Even in my religions class, we were never taught this.
And yeah, Jesus himself didn't have that large of an historical impact (at the time). In the context of Christianity he did, but there is a ridiculously small amount of written sources that actually confirm Jesus was real.[/QUOTE]
This.
Virtually every single time I (and many other people) of heard of Buddishm and the Buddha, we immediately think of the extremely obese and fat ball of lard and his statue-ized form.
Whether or not it is the 'real' Buddha, as you are stating there is a difference between the Buddhai and folklore, the reality remains that the vast majority of non-Buddhists (and likely some Buddhists too) believe the overweight one [B]'is'[/B] the god of their religion. It is the most widely recognized and associable icon of their religion.
Whilst I am certainly against religion in general, the Satanists here in question do seem to preach some nice ideals and morals. The only problem is that once a religion has the power and following they require, human instability and nature coerces them to use that power for their own advantage in often horrific ways.
How many billions have died over the years purely because of religion? It is impossible to consider that we might've thought up some other reason to go to War if Humanity never had religion, but it is irrefutable that Religion combined with basic human nature is holding us back as a species.
> The Romans and Greeks fighting over their religions, which the Romans later adopted in a modified form.
> The Romans and Celtic / European Gauls and Barbarians and their religions.
> The Romans and Christianity, which Romans later adopted and helped spread throughout their own vast Empire before it fell.
> The Christian Crusades annihilating scores of 'heretics' and 'heathens', such as in the Middle East, the Inquisition back home and the negative influence of the Papalcy in Rome.
> The Muslims and Middle-Eastern religions having polar conflicts versus the West and amongst themselves. Declaring Ji'had on rivals and opposition on purely religious connotation.
> The seemingly never-ending conflict between Israel and its neighboring countries due to religious differences.
> The Nazi's, Jews and WW2
> Likely a whole heap of atrocities in Asian countries relating to their own religions conflicting with one another that I dont know about.
> Medieval Orthodox Russians fighting near non-stop with Hungary and other nearby Catholic states.
[QUOTE=dai;44706949]high school dips who do it to be edgy probably don't read into anything other than "fuck yeah"
at an absolute core value, it's like hedonism with a bit of robotic law, with the last law flipped; self preservation takes precedence over gratification of your own will or the will of others in the case of attempting to aid those who call for help.
Someone refresh my memory though, doesn't the laveyan bible also state that the mysticism provided is more just suggestions for how to focus and meditate? Like, the point is the meditation, not the ritual itself.[/QUOTE]
this is what I mean, these practices are all represented in other philosophies without all the silly shaving your head and changing your name to sound impressive when in fact your real name is Howard Levey
[QUOTE=Simski;44702983]His ears are fucking huge I mean holy fuck Prince Charles don't got shit on this fucker here[/QUOTE]
The reason is because Buddha was supposed to have been someone very wealthy, and thus would have worn massive solid gold earnings, which will stretch your earlobes out quite a considerable amount.
There's a mountain of sayings and metaphors you make from this. Things like, they serve as a reminder of the heritage he cast aside on his journey to enlightenment.
[QUOTE=Venrez;44707198]> The Nazi's, Jews and WW2[/QUOTE]
That was more racially motivated and people in Germany were desperate for someone to blame the economic problems on.
[QUOTE=lapsus_;44706340]
Luci fucking pher, artist put the pentagram in the wrong direction.[/QUOTE]
There are plenty of depictions of Baphomet that use upwards facing pentagrams, including the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baphomet.png]most famous one[/url]. I think it's only the Satanists that flip it over.
reminder that [url=http://www.thesatanictemple.com/]The Satanic Temple[/url], which are the people looking to fund this statue, are not [url=http://www.churchofsatan.com/]The Church of Satan[/url], which are LaVeyan Satanists.
The Satanic Temple is more grounded than LaVeyan Satanism is, nothing in their creed about destroying people or anything.
[QUOTE=dai;44706326]and there's biblical scriptures telling you to stone people to death for wearing mixed fabrics???
between the two I think the lavey style commandments(/suggestions?) are wholly relevant to modern society, give or take the meaning of 'destroy' as he often used. It tells you that if someone 'bothers' you, you tell them to stop. [b]Then, if they continue[/b], do what needs to be done to get them the fuck out of your face because their continued existence in your life is detrimental to you. It's talking on a grand scale of how they affect you and your doings as a person, not like "this one dude looked at me funny ima go bash his face in"[/QUOTE]
I've always interpreted his use of "destroy" as "remove"
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;44710332]reminder that [url=http://www.thesatanictemple.com/]The Satanic Temple[/url], which are the people looking to fund this statue, are not [url=http://www.churchofsatan.com/]The Church of Satan[/url], which are LaVeyan Satanists.
The Satanic Temple is more grounded than LaVeyan Satanism is, nothing in their creed about destroying people or anything.[/QUOTE]
The 'destroy' part is all about interpretation and how much energy you're willing to put down on someone you don't like.
[QUOTE=frozensoda;44710578]I've always interpreted his use of "destroy" as "remove"[/QUOTE]
That is an inherent problem of religion. Its ambiguous.
Its why we have extremists.
[editline]4th May 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;44709693]That was more racially motivated and people in Germany were desperate for someone to blame the economic problems on.[/QUOTE]
Doesnt necessarily change the fact that they purposefully targeted a religious group on the subject of their religion being the deciding factor, thus identifying them as the target.
Also considering, widely unknown, that the Nazis attempted to instate their own pseudo-religion based upon worship of the Sun.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_%28occult_symbol%29[/url]
[QUOTE=dai;44706949]high school dips who do it to be edgy probably don't read into anything other than "fuck yeah"
at an absolute core value, it's like hedonism with a bit of robotic law, with the last law flipped; self preservation takes precedence over gratification of your own will or the will of others in the case of attempting to aid those who call for help.
Someone refresh my memory though, doesn't the laveyan bible also state that the mysticism provided is more just suggestions for how to focus and meditate? Like, the point is the meditation, not the ritual itself.[/QUOTE]
It's sort of misconstrued from time to time. I'm an active LaVeyan Satanist so I'll refresh.
The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
[B]1.[/B] Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
[B]2.[/B] Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
[B]3.[/B] When in another's lair, show them respect or else do not go there.
[B]4.[/B] If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.
[B]5.[/B] Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
[B]6.[/B] Do not take that which does not belong to you, unless it is a burden to the other person and they cry out to be relieved.
[B]7.[/B] [I]Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.[/I]
[B]8. [/B]Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
[B]9. [/B]Do not harm young children.
[B]10. [/B]Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
[B]11. [/B]When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.[25][26]
Rule number 7 is sometimes joked about because obviously magic isn't real. The rule only says that if you successfully use magic, you're not allowed to attribute it to yourself. It doesn't say you have to believe in magic.
Nobody in their right mind can honestly say these are bad rules to live by, though. It might be a bit self-centered, but that's inherently how people are. Nobody does anything out of the goodness of their heart, everyone's actions are centered around themselves. If someone gives to a charity, they do it to make themselves feel like a good person, not to help anyone. Everyone is selfish, most people just try not to make it obvious.
[QUOTE=Quark:;44724883]It's sort of misconstrued from time to time. I'm an active LaVeyan Satanist so I'll refresh.
The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
[B]1.[/B] Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
[B]2.[/B] Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
[B]3.[/B] When in another's lair, show them respect or else do not go there.
[B]4.[/B] If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.
[B]5.[/B] Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
[B]6.[/B] Do not take that which does not belong to you, unless it is a burden to the other person and they cry out to be relieved.
[B]7.[/B] [I]Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.[/I]
[B]8. [/B]Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
[B]9. [/B]Do not harm young children.
[B]10. [/B]Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
[B]11. [/B]When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.[25][26]
Rule number 7 is sometimes joked about because obviously magic isn't real. The rule only says that if you successfully use magic, you're not allowed to attribute it to yourself. It doesn't say you have to believe in magic.
Nobody in their right mind can honestly say these are bad rules to live by, though. It might be a bit self-centered, but that's inherently how people are. Nobody does anything out of the goodness of their heart, everyone's actions are centered around themselves. If someone gives to a charity, they do it to make themselves feel like a good person, not to help anyone. Everyone is selfish, most people just try not to make it obvious.[/QUOTE]
my argument I guess is that you don't need to be a Satanist if those are the rules you want to live by. It just reads a lot like a mash up between Hedonism, Modern Stoicism and a bunch of other basic tenets from other philosophies. It just confuses me why people choose to identify as Satanists
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;44724952]my argument I guess is that you don't need to be a Satanist if those are the rules you want to live by. It just reads a lot like a mash up between Hedonism, Modern Stoicism and a bunch of other basic tenets from other philosophies. It just confuses me why people choose to identify as Satanists[/QUOTE]
It's more so for the shock value than anything. The satanic Church was bought about not for true worship of the devil, but as a mockery of mainstream Christianity. It's closer to humanism than anything else, if not a tad extreme in its presentation.
[QUOTE=Quark:;44725104]It's sort of incorrect to refer to a Laveyan Satanist a a Satanist as we don't actually believe Satan (or any other deity-type figures) exists or existed. It's more proper to call a Satan worshiping Satanist a Satanist.
You don't necessarily [I]have[/I] to be a Laveyan to live by those rules, but those aren't the only rules we live by.
There are the 9 statements, the 11 rules, and the 9 sins.
Statements:
The Nine Satanic Statements
[B]1[/B]. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence.
[B]2[/B]. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.
[B]3[/B]. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit.
[B]4[/B]. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates.
[B]5[/B]. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek.
[B]6[/B]. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires.
[B]7[/B]. Satan represents man as just another animal (sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours), who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all.
[B]8[/B]. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification.
[B]9[/B]. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years.
In this context, Satan doesn't refer to the religious figure but rather the idea of self and self-preservation.
The Nine Satanic Sins
[B]1. [/B]Stupidity
[B]2. [/B]Pretentiousness
[B]3. [/B]Solipsism
[B]4. [/B]Self-deceit
[B]5. [/B]Herd Conformity
[B]6. [/B]Lack of Perspective
[B]7. [/B]Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies
[B]8. [/B]Counterproductive Pride
[B]9.[/B] Lack of Aesthetic
There's really nothing to disagree with from an objective standpoint.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;44725018]It's more so for the shock value than anything. The satanic Church was bought about not for true worship of the devil, but as a mockery of mainstream Christianity. It's closer to humanism than anything else, if not a tad extreme in its presentation.[/QUOTE]
It really isn't for shock value. It's only when others say that it's all about shock value that people begin to believe that. We're less recognized, less argumentative, and least mentioned. If we wanted shock value we'd have community gatherings and do marches like other religions always do.
[QUOTE=Quark:;44725104]It really isn't for shock value. It's only when others say that it's all about shock value that people begin to believe that. We're less recognized, less argumentative, and least mentioned. If we wanted shock value we'd have community gatherings and do marches like other religions always do.[/QUOTE]
can I ask - and I seriously mean this with the utmost respect, I can see you're not some edgy teenager and I don't want to paint it that way - what is it that makes you want to be a satanist, as opposed to someone who lives like this, but doesn't identify as anything in particular, or as under a different philosophical school?
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;44725234]can I ask - and I seriously mean this with the utmost respect, I can see you're not some edgy teenager and I don't want to paint it that way - what is it that makes you want to be a satanist, as opposed to someone who lives like this, but doesn't identify as anything in particular, or as under a different philosophical school?[/QUOTE]
What makes me want to be a [B]Laveyan[/B] Satanist is the fact that I already lived by those sets of ideals before I discovered it. After I discovered it and noticed I fall into line with it almost completely, I realized there are others with ideals similar to mine, and having material to reference our ideals is convenient for anyone else who is interested or curious.
If I had never discovered it I wouldn't be able to accurately answer anyone's questions on the topic, for example. There's plenty of reference material for me to provide someone with if they have questions, as opposed to just living by the ideals and not knowing much about the specifics.
I hope that answers your question. If not I'm still open to questions I suppose. I'd imagine there are other Laveyans on Facepunch, too, who can answer questions if I can't.
[QUOTE=Quark:;44725465]I hope that answers your question. If not I'm still open to questions I suppose. I'd imagine there are other Laveyans on Facepunch, too, who can answer questions if I can't.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure there's at least one other that I can think of. I can't remember his name but I do remember seeing him post about it a few times.
I used to consider myself a Laveyan Satanist, but I didn't like the label and I disagreed with a few relatively small parts of the belief system.
Regardless it's a very interesting philosophy and I do adhere to a few of its teachings as I find my personal ideals tend to align with it more often than not.
I tend to just drop the 'Satanist' and refer to it as 'Laveyanism' as the word Satan gets people up in a hubub due to common misconceptions. That's really the only niggle about it, the label. It's a bit of a misnomer in modern times.
I can't really find anything to disagree with in any of the teachings or the reference materials. It really is an interesting philosophy because it's so focused around the self and the now rather than the others and the future. It just makes more sense than deluding oneself into believing in clearly non-existent or impossible ideals and entities.
[QUOTE=Quark:;44725543]I tend to just drop the 'Satanist' and refer to it as 'Laveyanism' as the word Satan gets people up in a hubub due to common misconceptions. That's really the only niggle about it, the label. It's a bit of a misnomer in modern times.
I can't really find anything to disagree with in any of the teachings or the reference materials. It really is an interesting philosophy because it's so focused around the self and the now rather than the others and the future. It just makes more sense than deluding oneself into believing in clearly non-existent or impossible ideals and entities.[/QUOTE]
But almost all those rules are about not bothering or hurting other people.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;44725679]But almost all those rules are about not bothering or hurting other people.[/QUOTE]
Those rules are in place for the sake of self-preservation. If you bother or hurt other people, it's going to catch up with you eventually and do you harm. The best kind of self-protection is not putting yourself in intentional danger (which is the first sin and sixth sin).
[QUOTE=Quark:;44725847]Those rules are in place for the sake of self-preservation. If you bother or hurt other people, it's going to catch up with you eventually and do you harm. The best kind of self-protection is not putting yourself in intentional danger (which is the first sin and sixth sin).[/QUOTE]
Then for rules of "self-preservation", they just sound like a redundant handful of things that might make someone angry, and make even less sense than being just general rules most people would agree with anyway.
[QUOTE=Quark:;44724883]
The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
[B]1.[/B] Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
[B]2.[/B] Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
[B]3.[/B] When in another's lair, show them respect or else do not go there.
[B]4.[/B] If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.
[B]5.[/B] Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
[B]6.[/B] Do not take that which does not belong to you, unless it is a burden to the other person and they cry out to be relieved.
[B]7.[/B] [I]Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.[/I]
[B]8. [/B]Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
[B]9. [/B]Do not harm young children.
[B]10. [/B]Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
[B]11. [/B]When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.[25][26]
[/QUOTE]
a lot of these rules seem pretty pretentious and silly
While they still make sense, they need to tone down on the "no mercy" and "destroy" talk. Other than that I see no real issue with them.
[quote]The Nine Satanic Sins
[...]
5. Herd Conformity
[...]
[/quote]
Except, by adhering to the Satanic Church rather than just being someone who lives by a vaguely similar moral code to them, aren't you practising herd conformity? There are many herds to conform to, you know.
[QUOTE=Toyhobo;44726411]While they still make sense, they need to tone down on the "no mercy" and "destroy" talk. Other than that I see no real issue with them.[/QUOTE]
I do kinda agree, it sounds hostile and anti-social...
[B]4.[/B] If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.
"Oh this guy here is talking about sports again, so annoying... I'm going to go ahead and bully the fuck out of him till he leaves my house!"
seriously? however it seems this rule here kindas backs that one up
[B]3.[/B] When in another's lair, show them respect or else do not go there.
So in other words, "you got invited for a party from your religious fanatical brother, if you don't like his views or him as a person, don't go at all" however sometimes that is not a choice giving when your forced to go, then your other choice is to be as anti-social and don't speak whatsoever of anything.
[QUOTE=Quark:;44724883]It's sort of misconstrued from time to time. I'm an active LaVeyan Satanist so I'll refresh.
The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
[B]1.[/B] Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
[B]2.[/B] Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
[B]3.[/B] When in another's lair, show them respect or else do not go there.
[B]4.[/B] If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.
[B]5.[/B] Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
[B]6.[/B] Do not take that which does not belong to you, unless it is a burden to the other person and they cry out to be relieved.
[B]7.[/B] [I]Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.[/I]
[B]8. [/B]Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
[B]9. [/B]Do not harm young children.
[B]10. [/B]Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
[B]11. [/B]When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.[25][26]
Rule number 7 is sometimes joked about because obviously magic isn't real. The rule only says that if you successfully use magic, you're not allowed to attribute it to yourself. It doesn't say you have to believe in magic.
Nobody in their right mind can honestly say these are bad rules to live by, though. It might be a bit self-centered, but that's inherently how people are. Nobody does anything out of the goodness of their heart, everyone's actions are centered around themselves. If someone gives to a charity, they do it to make themselves feel like a good person, not to help anyone. Everyone is selfish, most people just try not to make it obvious.[/QUOTE]
Eeehh, I prefer the ones Odin lays out in the Hávamál
[editline]6th May 2014[/editline]
although tbh they aren't really rules as much as really good advice
[QUOTE=Quark:;44724883]It's sort of misconstrued from time to time. I'm an active LaVeyan Satanist so I'll refresh.
The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
[B]1.[/B] Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
[B]2.[/B] Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
[B]3.[/B] When in another's lair, show them respect or else do not go there.
[B]4.[/B] If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.
[B]5.[/B] Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
[B]6.[/B] Do not take that which does not belong to you, unless it is a burden to the other person and they cry out to be relieved.
[B]7.[/B] [I]Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.[/I]
[B]8. [/B]Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
[B]9. [/B]Do not harm young children.
[B]10. [/B]Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
[B]11. [/B]When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.[25][26]
Rule number 7 is sometimes joked about because obviously magic isn't real. The rule only says that if you successfully use magic, you're not allowed to attribute it to yourself. It doesn't say you have to believe in magic.
Nobody in their right mind can honestly say these are bad rules to live by, though. It might be a bit self-centered, but that's inherently how people are. Nobody does anything out of the goodness of their heart, everyone's actions are centered around themselves. If someone gives to a charity, they do it to make themselves feel like a good person, not to help anyone. Everyone is selfish, most people just try not to make it obvious.[/QUOTE]
This is probably the first religious set of commandments / moral code that I actually completely agree with.
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