Obama condemns Russia after airliner downed in Ukraine - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;45431894]I don't know what planes they're expecting to shoot down and I don't know what model the plane that was shot down was, but: [IMG]http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/13725/wm/pd2389690.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00064/plane_64301b.jpg[/IMG] You'd need to be a complete retard to mistake one of those silhouettes for the other.[/QUOTE] At 10000 meters it's hard to see much past a dot depending on the weather, and they thought they are shooting at a military cargo plane, not a fighter. It might have even been overcast, the radar doesn't care.

[QUOTE=Aman;45431910]Read into it more you are missing a pretty crucial point. 33,000 feet.[/QUOTE] I'd say the differences in shape between a passenger jet and a military craft are big enough to notice at that distance.

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;45431949]I'd say the differences in shape between a passenger jet and a military craft are big enough to notice at that distance.[/QUOTE] If you say so, despite just saying [quote]I don't know what planes they're expecting to shoot down and I don't know what model the plane that was shot down was[/quote] I'll take your word on it.

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;45431949]I'd say the differences in shape between a passenger jet and a military craft are big enough to notice at that distance.[/QUOTE] That is dumb. 10,000 metres asl. [IMG]http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Il-76.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00064/plane_64301b.jpg[/IMG] That is less than a 1000m.

[QUOTE=Aman;45431951]If you say so, despite just saying I'll take your word on it.[/QUOTE] If they thought they were firing at a cargo plane then I'd give them more margin of error. But if I was on the ground I would be asking myself why the fuck a cargo plane is flying over our anti-air system without any escort.

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;45431973]If they thought they were firing at a cargo plane then I'd give them more margin of error. But if I was on the ground I would be asking myself why the fuck a cargo plane is flying over our anti-air system without any escort.[/QUOTE] Because Ukrainian commanders are stupid. Look at the Il-76 they shot down.

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;45431973]If they thought they were firing at a cargo plane then I'd give them more margin of error. But if I was on the ground I would be asking myself why the fuck a cargo plane is flying over our anti-air system without any escort.[/QUOTE] How exactly is escort supposed to keep a cargo plane from getting shot down by a Buk?

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;45431983]How exactly is escort supposed to keep a cargo plane from getting shot down by a Buk?[/QUOTE] 'over our anti air system' you have escort for opposing air and to avoid static anti air you don't fucking fly over it.

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;45431994]'over our anti air system' you have escort for opposing air and to avoid static anti air you don't fucking fly over it.[/QUOTE] The rebels have no aerial units. Ukrainian army didn't know exact position of the Buks. Besides, the rebels already successfully shot down multiple Ukrainian aircraft, an Ukrainian General died in one of them. You have no idea what you are talking about.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;45431983]How exactly is escort supposed to keep a cargo plane from getting shot down by a Buk?[/QUOTE] They have RWR, a system that alerts the pilots of systems in the air and on the ground that are firing off radar pings. They can also detect missile launches. This is from a video game, but it's a fairly accurate simulation of how it works. [video=youtube;fdE3GDuZrK8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdE3GDuZrK8[/video]

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;45431994]'over our anti air system' you have escort for opposing air and to avoid static anti air you don't fucking fly over it.[/QUOTE] The range of an unsophisticated Buk missile system is about 30km. You don't have to fly over it, it will find you and try to kill you. You make all this shit sound as if it's all very simple. [editline]18th July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=darunner;45432012]They have RWR, a system that alerts the pilots of systems in the air and on the ground that are firing off radar pings. They can also detect missile launches. This is from a video game, but it's a fairly accurate simulation of how it works. [video=youtube;fdE3GDuZrK8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdE3GDuZrK8[/video][/QUOTE] So do most cargo and recon planes. The rebels don't have an airforce.

[QUOTE=Srillo;45431266]I'm not sure I understand the funny ratings, what else is he supposed to do? At least he's condemned them, that's more than what the EU has done up to this point and this is essentially a European problem.[/QUOTE] It's funny because we all know that it's a big joke. Obama isn't going to do anything whether Putin obeys or not. I mean... don't command someone to do something if you're not going to do anything when they completely ignore you.

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;45431894][B]I don't know what planes they're expecting to shoot down and I don't know what model the plane that was shot down was[/B], but: [img]http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/13725/wm/pd2389690.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00064/plane_64301b.jpg[/img] You'd need to be a complete retard to mistake one of those silhouettes for the other.[/QUOTE] "I don't know anything about planes or what planes they were targeting, so here let me compare two generic types of plane to prove my vapid point". If you don't know, don't speak. The type of plane the Separatists were looking to shoot down were likely An-26s, since they had already shot one down previously. They are transport planes used by the Ukrainians, and due to their sometimes white color scheme, they are nearly indistinguishable from civilians craft, especially at a distance. Here is an example: [IMG]http://www.military-today.com/aircraft/antonov_an26_curl_l2.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=darunner;45432012]They have RWR, a system that alerts the pilots of systems in the air and on the ground that are firing off radar pings. They can also detect missile launches. This is from a video game, but it's a fairly accurate simulation of how it works. [/QUOTE] But how can it save a plane from a missile? It just detects launches. Millitary cargo planes can be equipped with some countermeasures maybe, but they won't help against Buk, as far as i know. It is a pretty clever system that is designed to intercept small and very fast maneuvering targets like cruise missiles, so i don't think that big and slow cargo has a single chance against it. Actually, as far as i know, planes just usually don't show up until enemy's AA is completely destroyed.

[QUOTE=Srillo;45431266]I'm not sure I understand the funny ratings, what else is he supposed to do? At least he's condemned them, that's more than what the EU has done up to this point and this is essentially a European problem. Pathetic. Hundreds of European corpses dot the Ukrainian country side and the EU dithers, as usual.[/QUOTE] It's a bit more complicated than that. What would you want the EU to do? Go to war with russia, or break ties, essentially shooting themselves in the foot economically?

[QUOTE=proch;45432255]It's a bit more complicated than that. What would you want the EU to do? Go to war with russia, or break ties, essentially shooting themselves in the foot economically?[/QUOTE] Open the silos.

[QUOTE=No Party Hats;45431540]To be fair, markings on the somewhat intact parts of the plane paint a very solid picture that the plane was shot down, but I do agree that regardless of who did what here, caution is key.[/QUOTE] It probably was shot down. I'll be genuinely surprised if it did crash purely as an accident. But I still think we need to know what happened to it before the tanks get gassed up. [editline]18th July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=OvB;45431672]It's 100% confirmed the plane was shot down.[/quote] I haven't seen the confirmation first-hand but I wouldn't doubt it. It's [i]possible[/i] that airplane went down due to unrelated catastrophe just like it's [i]possible[/i] to win the powerball. [quote] Likely by the rebels.[/quote] Probably. Or maybe the Ukrainian Army shot it down and will try to pin the blame on the rebels. I wouldn't put it past them, both sides are pretty cruel. [quote] Where did they get the missiles and training to use them?[/quote] Probably Russia. [quote] If it is confirmed that the rebels shot it down, Russia needs heavy sanctions at the very least.[/QUOTE] Sanctions don't do a god damned thing to Russia. That country is so massive and so resource rich that they can just laugh at the sanctions and go self sufficient. Russia does not need trade with the rest of the world, least of all the west, so good luck getting Putin to even read them. [editline]18th July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Mingebox;45431770]If this keeps up, we're going to have to put Russia under Double Secret Sanctions.[/QUOTE] But we shouldn't expel them. They'll cover one of their tanks in some sort of badass paper mache skin and crash one of our town pride parades.

[QUOTE=proch;45432255]It's a bit more complicated than that. What would you want the EU to do? Go to war with russia, or break ties, essentially shooting themselves in the foot economically?[/QUOTE] I don't think anything needs to be done to Russia unless there's concrete evidence that they either influenced the attack or supplied the equipment to the rebels. Russian rebels are not affiliated with Russia unless it's proven that they were given direct orders or aid from Russia. If the rebels are proven to haven taken down the plane, they need to be held accountable and an international effort to arrest them if possible or defeat them otherwise is entirely reasonable. I doubt a multi-nation task force with Ukraine's approval would have much trouble bringing the rebels to justice considering victims on the plane were from nations such as The US, Australia, The UK, and Germany.

[QUOTE=antianan;45432227]Actually, as far as i know, planes just usually don't show up until enemy's AA is completely destroyed.[/QUOTE] Outside of the video game world, air power is usually 99% responsible for destruction of air defenses. There's a whole category of combat air operations for it - Suppression of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD). Some aircraft are equipped to carry [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radar_missile]Anti-radiation missiles[/url] like ALARM and HARM which are basically fire-and-forget weapons that track and destroy radar emitters, specifically search and tracking radars on missile systems. Some aircraft like the EF-18 and EA-6 are designed with SEAD completely in mind, so they would usually be the first to be sent in when beginning air operations. That having been said, a common strategy in NATO interventions these days seems to be using inordinately expensive cruise missile bombardments targeting the major air defense sites in an area. And if you mean larger, less maneuverable aircraft like the C-130 or An-26, yeah, you won't see them above a few thousand feet in a zone with known SAMs. That would be suicidal flying. Problem was, the Ukraine wasn't aware of the Buk systems, thinking the separatists were only armed with shoulder-fired weapons, or they didn't care enough to stop their overflights.

IMO: Theres no way in hell this is accidental, i'm pretty damn well sure the party that was involved in the shooting down of this passenger jet knew exactly what it was and denies everything to worsen the situation we have ATM.

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;45431949]I'd say the differences in shape between a passenger jet and a military craft are big enough to notice at that distance.[/QUOTE] [IMG_thumb]http://i.imgur.com/sROzAIJ.jpg[/IMG_thumb] Here are two silhouettes (and a reference line I used for sizing) of what the downed plane and a military jet would look like on the ground, if you were floating in midair and could just have a guess. These silhouettes are closer to the photographer than a real one would be to a Buk launcher (around 2/3rds elevation with no lead), and if I didn't know which was which when throwing them into ACAD I wouldn't be able to tell from this simulated distance. I probably should have gone all-out and done correct-color silhouettes on weather-appropriate backgrounds at the real cruising distance, but I'm lazy and assume this gets the point across.

[QUOTE=ridinmybike;45433565]IMO: Theres no way in hell this is accidental, i'm pretty damn well sure the party that was involved in the shooting down of this passenger jet knew exactly what it was and denies everything to worsen the situation we have ATM.[/QUOTE] i'm pretty sure that it was accidential in the sense that they did not know it was civilian. i highly doubt the rebels know IFF Squawk codes or even if the radar infrastructure they used for the Buk would display squawk codes or even if were too damn stupid or stuck in their mentality to believe it was civ. that being said those rebels in the SBU tape posted in the other thread were discussing the contents of the crash as if they were expecting to pick up crates of arms. they pulled the trigger expecting to down a cargo plane and loot it. they knowingly intended to kill either way, and before they found out it was a civilian plane they bragged about it. now they're backpedaling in fear of the reprecussions. [editline]18th July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Xenocidebot;45433664][IMG_thumb]http://i.imgur.com/sROzAIJ.jpg[/IMG_thumb] Here are two silhouettes (and a reference line I used for sizing) of what the downed plane and a military jet would look like on the ground, if you were floating in midair and could just have a guess. These silhouettes are closer to the photographer than a real one would be to a Buk launcher (around 2/3rds elevation with no lead), and if I didn't know which was which when throwing them into ACAD I wouldn't be able to tell from this simulated distance. I probably should have gone all-out and done correct-color silhouettes on weather-appropriate backgrounds at the real cruising distance, but I'm lazy and assume this gets the point across.[/QUOTE] i dont believe operators of a buk which is heavily radar dependent would really go for visual confirmation.

[QUOTE=TheKingofBees;45433994] i dont believe operators of a buk which is heavily radar dependent would really go for visual confirmation.[/QUOTE] It would be incredibly unlikely, yes. I only say that in response to someone thinking they could see a notable distinction between aircraft at certain altitudes.

[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;45434104]It would be incredibly unlikely, yes. I only say that in response to someone thinking they could see a notable distinction between aircraft at certain altitudes.[/QUOTE]You beat me to that point, but I'd like to add something: Given that the Buk system is basically free from being reliant on a separate radar module, the launcher can fire missiles on it's own with some limited capability. I say this because it's extremely relevant to this particular incident: a launcher all by it's lonesome self cannot distinguish between aircraft types. A Boeing 777 looks the same as an An-26, all the launcher knows is there's [i]something[/i] up there and it's not squawking an IFF code that the launcher recognizes. Given that the separatists have almost certainly acquired just a launcher and not a dedicated fire control radar, they've basically been downing aircraft all this time while being [i]entirely fucking blind.[/i] This is probably why they so stupidly announced an An-26 was shot down a few minutes after MH17 crashed, but none of this exactly proves anything. It does completely convince me that the rebels shot that plane down, but it was definitely a genuine accident. There's literally no way they could have known it was a civilian plane, both visually and on the radar scope. Not that convincing me matters, but if I can figure this out using the internet and what little I know off-hand, I'm certain the actual experts in multiple military forces that are advising their governments have figured it out too.

Thanks for the info, i thought that rebels had some sort of FCR even if it was just a passive radar but your point makes sense.

[QUOTE=TheKingofBees;45434973]Thanks for the info, i thought that rebels had some sort of FCR even if it was just a passive radar but your point makes sense.[/QUOTE]You're welcome. <3 I don't think the designers had ever imagined such a scenario would happen, they developed the TELAR variant after seeing the Kub in action in Egypt. Without a radar, the fully functional launchers were worthless and couldn't engage Israeli jets. Having a launcher and radar in one allowed for some of that functionality to remain, at the cost of accuracy and target verification. Since these were supposed to be guarding over tank divisions as they rolled through Europe, that wasn't so much of an issue because the sky was expected to be swarming with NATO aircraft. So in the time it took for a replacement radar unit to arrive, the launcher could engage targets in a very, very target rich environment. Civilian aircraft wasn't expected to be an issue. Who the fuck would be flying around in the middle of World War III? Only Yankee imperialists, that's who!

[QUOTE=Jon27;45433423] That having been said, a common strategy in NATO interventions these days seems to be using inordinately expensive cruise missile bombardments targeting the major air defense sites in an area. [/QUOTE] Basically, this. They destroy enemy anti air with [I]misslies[/I] before sending [I]planes[/I].