Venezuela jails 100 bourgeois capitalist parasites in crackdown on price-gouging - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42875631]I thought you were a left libertarian though? If you had to shoot every capitalist if you thought it would bring a workers state, would it be worth it in the end?[/QUOTE] I'm a libertarian from a state perspective. I have no problem with using force and coercion in the interest of the working class, [I]so long[/I] as it isn't against the working class. Against fascists? Sure. Against capitalists? Sure. I don't claim to be liberal. Further, I don't believe that shooting or jailing capitalists would be the best method, I would prefer to see the class liquidated and capitalists integrated into the working class rather than have them individually eliminated. That being said, I don't much care if they were removed with force and violence. I think that Makhno was justified when he violently opposed the kulaks*. I believe that Che was justified when he oversaw the trials of capitalists in La Cabana*. I don't think that Lenin was justified when he issued the hanging order. Violence to take out [I]active opposition by individuals[/I] against the working class is acceptable. Violence against a class, simply because it is part of that class, is not. It's somewhat a self-defense thing. You can shoot the man breaking into your house because he's an immediate threat to your wellbeing (you being the working class or the revolution), but it's not ok for you to go out and murder all the people in the mob because of that, even if you're getting rid of the mob.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42876819]he's not an anarchist though. as an anarchist i would know ;) but he's right. if you want a general response to maduro from the left that includes both the authoritarian and libertarian leftists, then maduro is too far from socialism to get any praise or sympathy from any of "us"(although i don't personally want to be associated with authoritarian leftists more than i have to be).[/QUOTE] You are an anarchist who supports state run healthcare? You got some introspection to do yawm-yawm.

[QUOTE=Antdawg;42877061]you can try your hardest to justify it for yourself, but to everyone else it is only a buzzword. if you don't want people looking at you weirdly, don't use it.[/QUOTE] i often don't. i use "capitalist" or "land-owner", and other terms, but they don't quite roll off the tongue quite as well as bourgeois and proletariat do. [QUOTE=DaysBefore;42877062] Ah, so they're only a [I]true[/I] socialist when they agree with you, alright[/QUOTE] no, i disagree with real socialists all the time. i'm talking about those socialists who are radicals and extremists. the ones who truly believe in a socialist uprising. i'm using it to distance from the liberal socialist yuppy scum who believe the social democrats are great socialists blah blah blah. [editline]16th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Eudoxia;42877091]You are an anarchist who supports state run healthcare? You got some introspection to do yawm-yawm.[/QUOTE] i accept a universal system as preferable to a privatized system. being an anarchist doesn't confine you to black and white, i can look at one outcome being preferable to another even if neither are an end goal.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42877097]Bloody yuppies not agreeing with [I]me[/I][/QUOTE] [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];42877085']Death to the bourgeois!!![/QUOTE] You guys are hilarious

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];42877085']I think that Makhno was justified when he violently opposed the kulaks*.[/QUOTE] The kulaks were Ukrainian peasants. It was just an excuse to commit genocide of the Ukrainians.

[QUOTE=DaysBefore;42877126]You guys are hilarious[/QUOTE] It's all fun and games until the state is persectuing leftists with grand juries throughout the country, like they are. Again. For like the third time in 100 years.

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];42877160']It's all fun and games until the state is persectuing leftists with grand juries throughout the country, like they are. Again. For like the third time in 100 years.[/QUOTE] Haha yeah that was great when I suggested that it was okay to persecute you for your political beliefs Wait holy shit I never did that I just laughed at you

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42877158]The kulaks were Ukrainian peasants. It was just an excuse to commit genocide of the Ukrainians.[/QUOTE] We've gone over this before. I'm not in place to find my post, but kulaks were not peasants but a class of landowners, like the Mennonites in Ukraine, and Trotsky's parents, who owned serfs or had debtors living on their land. This term could also apply to sharecroppers in the American South post-Civil War. You can say that all you want, but regardless of the historical circumstances which you are drastically understating, the kulak has a place as a class distinction in the political and economic theory of the left. [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=DaysBefore;42877169]Haha yeah that was great when I suggested that it was okay to persecute you for your political beliefs Wait holy shit I never did that I just laughed at you[/QUOTE] Wasn't implying you were, comrade.

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];42877160']It's all fun and games until the state is persectuing leftists with grand juries throughout the country, like they are. Again. For like the third time in 100 years.[/QUOTE] 4 comrades locked up in solitary for refusing to cooperate with grand juries. released after a fucking year.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42877191]3 comrades locked up in solitary for refusing to cooperate with grand juries. released after a fucking year.[/QUOTE] #justice4comrades [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];42877185']Wasn't implying you were, comrade.[/QUOTE] Okay comrade, you surely can understand, comrade, why I would think you were implying that when you mentioned it, comrade, specifically as a response to my post, comrade.

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];42877185']We've gone over this before. I'm not in place to find my post, but kulaks were not peasants but a class of landowners, like the Mennonites in Ukraine, and Trotsky's parents, who owned serfs or had debtors living on their land. This term could also apply to sharecroppers in the American South post-Civil War. You can say that all you want, but regardless of the historical circumstances which you are drastically understating, the kulak has a place as a class distinction in the political and economic theory of the left.[/QUOTE] But they were almost exclusively Ukrainians, and what landowning class are you speaking about? The Stolypin reforms barely even broke up the rural communes in Russia, and the tiny landowning class held hardly any land. They almost dissolved as a group during the revolution. After Stalin did collectivisation, "Kulak" was a term used to describe literally anybody who tried to evade the soviet authorities. Don't bullshit me, everybody knows that the gulag system is Russia's forgotten holocaust.

[QUOTE=DaysBefore;42877212]#justice4comrades Okay comrade, you surely can understand, comrade, why I would think you were implying that when you mentioned it, comrade, specifically as a response to my post, comrade.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=DaysBefore;42877169]Haha yeah that was great when I suggested that it was okay to persecute you for your political beliefs Wait holy shit I never did that I just laughed at you[/QUOTE] oh so it's ok to laugh at people being persecuted for their political beliefs afterall. you're a dork

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42877245]oh so it's ok to laugh at people being persecuted for their political beliefs afterall. you're a dork[/QUOTE] Yep I'm laughing at your comrades I'm not forming witch-hunting grand juries though, I hope you can spot the difference here

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42877191]4 comrades locked up in solitary for refusing to cooperate with grand juries. released after a fucking year.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];42877185']Wasn't implying you were, comrade.[/QUOTE] are you guys serious it's like you're just asking to be stereotyped

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42877191]4 comrades locked up in solitary for refusing to cooperate with grand juries. released after a fucking year.[/QUOTE] Plus another still in prison without charge for the same, under investigation for a bombing that evidence hsows wasn't him and for providing legal support for OWS. [editline]15th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;42877224]But they were almost exclusively Ukrainians, and what landowning class are you speaking about? The Stolypin reforms barely even broke up the rural communes in Russia, and the tiny landowning class held hardly any land. They almost dissolved as a group during the revolution. After Stalin did collectivisation, "Kulak" was a term used to describe literally anybody who tried to evade the soviet authorities. Don't bullshit me, everybody knows that the gulag system is Russia's forgotten holocaust.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, Sobby bottoms, but Stalin was not the first to enact attacks against the kulaks, Lenin was attacking the kulaks sinc ebefore the NEP, and infact it was the controversy over the land-owning peasants that began the NEP, the scissor crisis, the left-right Bolshevik split, etc etc etc. Makhno was attacking them during the damn civil war and then the attacks continued during the various Ukranian soviet regimes that came and went independent and dependent of the Soviet armies. I make no excuses for Stalin, but I surely will set you straight on the issue of class in Russia. the vast majority of the peasantry existed in kulak-dominated communities, and this is one of the major problems faced, because during the civil war many of these communities united in the Green Revolutions, some for, some against the land owners, and what to do with the landowners was an issue of contension within the Soviet government. Without appeasing the Russian kulaks, there would be no grain when most needed. So, they appeased them. Trotsky wrote somewhat in detail about the economic and political problems of the Russian kulaks, and of the Ukranian kulaks, of which his own parents were.

[QUOTE=DaysBefore;42877272]Yep I'm laughing at your comrades I'm not forming witch-hunting grand juries though, I hope you can spot the difference here[/QUOTE] "it's ok to imprison people for a long time without trial as long as i get to laugh about it" [QUOTE=Rofl_copter;42877294]are you guys serious it's like you're just asking to be stereotyped[/QUOTE] we are already stereotyped. most people already think of me as an angsty teenager so what can i do?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42877611]"it's ok to imprison people for a long time without trial as long as i get to laugh about it"[/QUOTE] I didn't say it was ok.

whoever is okay with stores getting looted because of people of this whole bourgeois shit is just as blind and dumb as the autocratic government they claim to hate

[QUOTE=DaysBefore;42877717]I didn't say it was ok.[/QUOTE] so you just think it's funny when people are imprisoned indefinitely in solitary confinement without a trial

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42877762]so you just think it's funny when people are imprisoned indefinitely in solitary confinement without a trial[/QUOTE] No I think you are funny yawmwen. I admit, making mock of their predicament was wrong, I am sorry. But I think you, and your opinions, are a joke. I do apologize for the confusion.

what pisses me off the most about socialists is that they literally shrug off every single instance of the system not working in the people's favor at all, that they see failed governments as Venezuela's and they just pretty much go "oh they didn't follow the instructions correctly". THIS is socialist policies, THIS is what they look like, and THIS is what they cause, trial and error folks, the mistakes have been made, time to realize that this path is wrong and goes nowhere.

[QUOTE=DaysBefore;42877778]No I think you are funny yawmwen. I admit, making mock of their predicament was wrong, I am sorry. But I think you, and your opinions, are a joke. I do apologize for the confusion.[/QUOTE] well at least the feeling is mutual.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42877791]well at least the feeling is mutual.[/QUOTE] Zing x1

[QUOTE=Big Bang;42877787]what pisses me off the most about socialists is that they literally shrug off every single instance of the system not working in the people's favor at all, that they see failed governments as Venezuela's and they just pretty much go "oh they didn't follow the instructions correctly". THIS is socialist policies, THIS is what they look like, and THIS is what they cause, trial and error folks, the mistakes have been made, time to realize that this path is wrong and goes nowhere.[/QUOTE] but what about the socialist policies of countries like denmark & norway? i really think that in cases like this it IS more a failure of the government itself rather than the policies it claims to have

[QUOTE=Big Bang;42877787]what pisses me off the most about socialists is that they literally shrug off every single instance of the system not working in the people's favor at all, that they see failed governments as Venezuela's and they just pretty much go "oh they didn't follow the instructions correctly". THIS is socialist policies, THIS is what they look like, and THIS is what they cause, trial and error folks, the mistakes have been made, time to realize that this path is wrong and goes nowhere.[/QUOTE] I don't think the ideology your gov has matters much. It's pretty much just an incompetent and VERY corrupt government. Any party with such people leading it would be more or less the same.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;42877787]what pisses me off the most about socialists is that they literally shrug off every single instance of the system not working in the people's favor at all, that they see failed governments as Venezuela's and they just pretty much go "oh they didn't follow the instructions correctly". THIS is socialist policies, THIS is what they look like, and THIS is what they cause, trial and error folks, the mistakes have been made, time to realize that this path is wrong and goes nowhere.[/QUOTE] this socialism you are talking about is a facade. i'll quote chomsky for this: "When the world's two great propaganda systems agree on some doctrine, it requires some intellectual effort to escape its shackles. One such doctrine is that the society created by Lenin and Trotsky and molded further by Stalin and his successors has some relation to socialism in some meaningful or historically accurate sense of this concept. In fact, if there is a relation, it is the relation of contradiction... ...The Soviet leadership thus portrays itself as socialist to protect its right to wield the club, and Western ideologists adopt the same pretense in order to forestall the threat of a more free and just society. This joint attack on socialism has been highly effective in undermining it in the modern period." [url]http://www.chomsky.info/articles/1986----.htm[/url]

[QUOTE=DaysBefore;42877778]No I think you are funny yawmwen. I admit, making mock of their predicament was wrong, I am sorry. But I think you, and your opinions, are a joke. I do apologize for the confusion.[/QUOTE] watching this thread become shit flinging fest involving you and another person really makes it hard to read this post as anything but a joke itself. i know the irony in replying to this, but god damn dude.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;42877787]what pisses me off the most about socialists is that they literally shrug off every single instance of the system not working in the people's favor at all, that they see failed governments as Venezuela's and they just pretty much go "oh they didn't follow the instructions correctly". THIS is socialist policies, THIS is what they look like, and THIS is what they cause, trial and error folks, the mistakes have been made, time to realize that this path is wrong and goes nowhere.[/QUOTE] Well, but the Paris Commune, Catalonia, Makhnovia, Chiapas, did work. You can't really say this is fair because as a socialist would know, quite literally, only two version of socialism have been put into wide-scale practice, and those are at the reformist (Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia, etc etc) and the Leninist (Russia, China, Korea, etc etc etc) camps, which are only two forms of socialism that vary quite differently than the majority of socialist thought for most of its history. If you're going to criticize socialism, criticize it for what deserves criticism. What you have in Venezuela is a rosy version of social democracy, and you could hardly call it Marxist, if at all. I don't hold reservations that Venezuela sucks, but I also wouldn't consider Venezuela developed socialism. To give a comparison: If protestants separated from the Catholic Church, which in this analogy never actually gained power except in small circumstances where it was quite successful, and formed their own form of Christianity, and then it went on to take over half the world and sucked then entirety of its time in power, wouldn't you, as a Catholic, Anabaptist, Assyrian, Anglican, or Orthodox, be angry that every attack on your beliefs was done on the basis of Protestantism? Even if you didn't support Protestantism, or merely thought it was a step better than paganism, wouldn't it be fundamentally incorrect to start claiming that every Christian who wasn't Protestant is just making excuses that Christianity doesn't work, because gull darnit you've seen Christianity (Protestantism) and you know it sucks?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;42877892]watching this thread become shit flinging fest involving you and another person really makes it hard to read this post as anything but a joke itself. i know the irony in replying to this, but god damn dude.[/QUOTE] Okay, be sure to keep me up to date on any other commentary regarding my posts in the future.

[QUOTE=DaysBefore;42877993]Okay, be sure to keep me up to date on any other commentary regarding my posts in the future.[/QUOTE] will do this one was lacking entertainment value