fail0verflow Hacks the PS4, Plays Pokemon with linux on it - Polidicks

[QUOTE=.Lain;49428948]it's not bad or old flash is far older than BD tech lmao [editline]31st December 2015[/editline] i can tell right away that you know very little about this topic if you don't understand the profit margins at play[/QUOTE] Thanks for your input on my knowledge of how physical distribution works. Being that my income is paid for by film productions I make it my duty to know as little as possible. I can tell right away that you assume digital distribution only has one form.

boy oh boy why don't you go ahead and post a statement here if you're so proud of that fact that means nothing [editline]31st December 2015[/editline] anything you have posted thus far about both blu-ray and NAND flash tech so far has been irrational and for the most part wrong. sorry to tell you this [editline]31st December 2015[/editline] BD discs also last longer than cheap USB sticks. some datacenters (such as Facebook's) are moving to BD for archival instead of tape now because they last that long under repeated use. in comparison cheap to moderate flash will die far quicker under the same constant read/write stress

you can region restrict digital media just as easily as on physical media, if not even easier as it's not platform dependant at that stage

[QUOTE=.Lain;49428987]boy oh boy why don't you go ahead and post a statement here if you're so proud of that fact that means nothing [editline]31st December 2015[/editline] anything you have posted thus far about both blu-ray and NAND flash tech so far has been irrational and for the most part wrong. sorry to tell you this [editline]31st December 2015[/editline] BD discs also last longer than cheap USB sticks. some datacenters (such as Facebook's) are moving to BD for archival instead of tape now because they last that long under repeated use. in comparison cheap to moderate flash will die far quicker under the same constant read/write stress[/QUOTE] ok cool, see you in a few years with your blu-ray collection.

nice cop out response dude lmao i don't even own a blu ray or dvd drive fwiw

[QUOTE=rampageturke 2;49425711]Honestly, for playstations it kinda does. The ps1 - piracy. The ps2 - piracy. The ps3 - started off with Linux intentions and homebrew, but none of that really kicked off and it died, now the only reason to load cfw on a ps3 is to play pirated games. you're kidding yourself if you think people really want a gimped Linux build on a ps3[/QUOTE] linux on ps3 kicked off just fine and then sony killed it

[QUOTE=butre;49431079]linux on ps3 kicked off just fine and then sony killed it[/QUOTE] Except the almost nonexisting GPU driver and wonky RAM amount & 'structure'. But it was a beast of a numbercruncher since the US Air Force used a cluster of them with Linux for scientific simulation. Ironically it wasn't via the Linux access that the pirates got access, but Sony went into panic mode and disabled it with a firmware update anyway.

[QUOTE=.Lain;49428641]also yes, the dreamcast did not sell that well in light of the PS2. but that's not where companies make profit. they make it on software, and sega made losses on the whole rather than on just the console because of insanely easy piracy methods [editline]31st December 2015[/editline] it's far harder to pirate things on the PS2 and PSP. you actually need to buy extra hardware, for one. the dreamcast had a [I]day one[/I] exploit that anybody could do[/QUOTE] pirating things on the psp is literally copying a file to the memory stick and then copying the iso the psp did have a day one exploit, you could run unsigned software in 1.00 iirc, but they patched it out

[QUOTE=eirexe;49428067]How do you know it was a pirated copy?[/QUOTE] You are aware that no official Pokemon game has ever been released for Linux, right...?

[QUOTE=Sam Za Nemesis;49433523]It's not hard to dump games[/QUOTE] Which is a grey zone at best and straight up illegal at worst. Oh and people just use that as an excuse, nobody actually does that.

[QUOTE=icarusfoundyou;49425794]wow now people can unlock the full power of the cell processor! or nowadays its just an intel processor! amazing! Seriously though I never heard more marketing bullshit, even from apple, than sony put out about the shitty cell processor.[/QUOTE] Eh the cell was fairly unique, which is why it was used in some clusters really.

[QUOTE=paul simon;49433898]Which is a grey zone at best and straight up illegal at worst. Oh and people just use that as an excuse, nobody actually does that.[/QUOTE] who are you to dictate what "nobody actually does" plenty of people do, hell, the roms wouldnt exist if it werent for dumpers. I dump some of my games. It's legal as long as you don't distribute it.

[QUOTE=megafat;49426481]Wasn't pirating games for the Dreamcast as easy as copying the game onto another disc? Or did i completely make that up in my head?[/QUOTE] later on you could make the disc self booting but at the start you needed a loader disc, also gdroms had 1GB capacity so not all games fit on a cd

[QUOTE=waylander;49434454]later on you could make the disc self booting but at the start you needed a loader disc, also gdroms had 1GB capacity so not all games fit on a cd[/QUOTE] If that's true, then it seems like a simple way of defeating it would be filling the beginning (inner circle) of the disk right after the loader with garbage that the console automatically ignores and then jumps to the middle-ish part of the disk where the actual content is. Ofcourse make the game check if the garbage filler is present, and refuse to progress if it's not there.

[QUOTE=Map in a box;49434309]I dump some of my games. It's legal as long as you don't distribute it.[/QUOTE] Actually, depending on your country's copyright law, it can be [I]illegal[/I] if you're circumventing copy protection in the process of copying your game. That's why it's a grey area at best; it's not always a straight "yes" on whether you can make backups of your own games. Though you would be right in that most governments really don't give a shit either way as long as you aren't distributing it. However, this is all missing the point of my original post. It doesn't matter whether the game they showed off was "legally copied" or not. The point is that the first showcase of their hack was to play a ROM dump on an emulator, which does not set a good precedent for what the hack can be used for. It doesn't matter how much you argue that hacking consoles [I]can[/I] be used for legal purposes, the fact is that it [I]will[/I] be used for piracy. So you can't blame Sony or Nintendo for fighting against it. I'm entirely all for opening up hardware, like I said on page 1, but I'm not going to be too upset when Sony inevitably closes up the hole because I understand why they do it.

[QUOTE=Shugo;49435002]Actually, depending on your country's copyright law, it can be [I]illegal[/I] if you're circumventing copy protection in the process of copying your game. That's why it's a grey area at best; it's not always a straight "yes" on whether you can make backups of your own games. Though you would be right in that most governments really don't give a shit either way as long as you aren't distributing it. However, this is all missing the point of my original post. It doesn't matter whether the game they showed off was "legally copied" or not. The point is that the first showcase of their hack was to play a ROM dump on an emulator, which does not set a good precedent for what the hack can be used for. It doesn't matter how much you argue that hacking consoles [I]can[/I] be used for legal purposes, the fact is that it [I]will[/I] be used for piracy. So you can't blame Sony or Nintendo for fighting against it. I'm entirely all for opening up hardware, like I said on page 1, but I'm not going to be too upset when Sony inevitably closes up the hole because I understand why they do it.[/QUOTE] And I believe that when I buy hardware, then I OWN it and thus the right to do with the hardware & bundled software as I please. The modern consoles often need internet access for most functions and more and more games are sold with a focus on multiplayer, so why on earth can't they include a basic yet non-intrusive DRM for their games so the console itself can be left open? Besides, security limitations is interpreted by hackers like this group as not a deterrent, but a invitation for a juicy challenge.

Note that these are proper security holes so the same techniques that you can use to unlock your console or root your Android can be (and have been) used to install malware. What we want is for consoles to be open but secure platforms.

[QUOTE=Van-man;49435072]And I believe that when I buy hardware, then I OWN it and thus the right to do with the hardware & bundled software as I please.[/QUOTE] Don't get me wrong, [B]I totally agree with this.[/B] I'm in no way saying that anyone is in the wrong for cracking open game consoles. Like I keep saying, [I]I use such hacks myself[/I] for various homebrew tools like save file backups and breaking region locks. But I'm not so shortsighted as to not be aware that hacking a console [I]will[/I] lead to piracy, and Sony isn't somehow in the wrong for trying to protect against that kind of thing. My original point was in response to the people who were saying things along those lines, that Sony shouldn't be upset about this and shouldn't be coming down on it since it's not [I]necessarily[/I] for piracy. Fail0verflow themselves showed this chart a few years ago when the PS3 was hacked: [img]http://images.eurogamer.net/articles//a/1/3/1/3/9/2/5/tabl3.jpg.jpg[/img] It doesn't matter what cracking open a console is [I]for[/I], it [I]will[/I] be used for piracy. And Sony [I]should[/I] try to stop that. [B]Do I personally wish they wouldn't? Yes![/B] I like less restrictions, even if I don't pirate! But I'm not going to be surprised or too upset when Sony inevitably closes up the hole and forces me to choose between continued access to their online services or homebrew apps. [QUOTE=Van-man;49435072]The modern consoles often need internet access for most functions and more and more games are sold with a focus on multiplayer, so why on earth can't they include a basic yet non-intrusive DRM for their games so the console itself can be left open?[/QUOTE] Sony did actually try that for PS2 and PS3. PS2 had an official Linux kit you could buy that let you basically take control of the whole system except for the DVD drive. It was a great tool for aspiring game devs and enthusiasts who wanted to use the machine for whatever they wanted. ...then the PS2 was hacked anyway and used for piracy. PS3 had OtherOS, which was basically the same thing as the PS2 Linux kit, except built into the console from the start. Fail0verflow posits that the PS3 went unhacked for so long because hackers already had OtherOS to sate them. That may be true to an extent, but the fact is that PS3 was eventually cracked open, originally via [I]OtherOS itself[/I], and used for piracy. Considering the PSP was also being pirated to hell and back by that time, it really shouldn't be any surprise that the next generation (PS4/Vita) was far more closed up and secure, with no official ways to run your own code on them. That's also not to mention the fact that nothing very notable ever came from those official methods of opening the console's hardware. I never heard about any major homebrew apps or cool games that anyone developed for these methods. Even when Sony set up programs (PSP minis, PS Mobile) that made it easier for more indie devs to get into developing for their systems, barely any good games came of it. Sony tried catering to indies and homebrew devs, and it didn't produce much extra value for their platform beyond catering to a very small niche of programmers. Meanwhile, their consoles got cracked open and pirated anyway. There's no incentive for Sony open up their consoles anymore. [B]I don't like it myself, but I can accept that that's how things are.[/B]

[QUOTE=DrTaxi;49435666]Note that these are proper security holes so the same techniques that you can use to unlock your console or root your Android can be (and have been) used to install malware. What we want is for consoles to be open but secure platforms.[/QUOTE] And every tech savvy person know that "security through obscurity" ends up with sloppy security on complex systems.

Sony has done very little to promote homebrew style dev compared to Nintendo(wiiu dev program) and Xbox (xna program)

[QUOTE=Map in a box;49436700]Sony has done very little to promote homebrew style dev compared to Nintendo(wiiu dev program) and Xbox (xna program)[/QUOTE] MS did kill XNA off in the end (which sucked as the framework was incredibly simple and a somewhat decent way to pick up basic game dev), but Sony have been doing a fair bit to get indie developers on a home console since the PS3. It's not as simple as it should be really, as you need to be licensed to even get the SDK, but that's true for the Wii U SDK and undoubtedly the XBox 360/ One SDKs. This isn't an argument against locking down your consoles to mitigate piracy however. Whenever a exploit is found it always ends up being primarily used for piracy because the enthusiasts who aren't using it for that are few and far between. Most people weren't using things like OtherOS for anything outside of the novelty factor. The few groups genuinely using it likely never updated the PS3 OS past the point of removal because they were being used for scientific research (the Cell was a pretty great number cruncher, even with the OtherOS gimping).

[QUOTE=Map in a box;49434309]who are you to dictate what "nobody actually does" plenty of people do, hell, the roms wouldnt exist if it werent for dumpers. I dump some of my games. It's legal as long as you don't distribute it.[/QUOTE] It's pretty obvious that 99.9%+ of people pirate old cartridge games instead of dumping from their own. Using "but people can dump games" as an argument is kind of pointless, because it's such a rare thing that it almost doesn't deserve a mention. And like I said, grey zone at best, illegal at worst. It's not legal in all countries, and it's sort of a grey zone in the rest.

[QUOTE=Shugo;49432628]You are aware that no official Pokemon game has ever been released for Linux, right...?[/QUOTE] And? you can rip the game and put in on your pc and it's legal pretty much everywhere.

[QUOTE=Shugo;49435671]Don't get me wrong, [B]I totally agree with this.[/B] I'm in no way saying that anyone is in the wrong for cracking open game consoles. Like I keep saying, [I]I use such hacks myself[/I] for various homebrew tools like save file backups and breaking region locks. But I'm not so shortsighted as to not be aware that hacking a console [I]will[/I] lead to piracy, and Sony isn't somehow in the wrong for trying to protect against that kind of thing. My original point was in response to the people who were saying things along those lines, that Sony shouldn't be upset about this and shouldn't be coming down on it since it's not [I]necessarily[/I] for piracy. Fail0verflow themselves showed this chart a few years ago when the PS3 was hacked: [img]http://images.eurogamer.net/articles//a/1/3/1/3/9/2/5/tabl3.jpg.jpg[/img] It doesn't matter what cracking open a console is [I]for[/I], it [I]will[/I] be used for piracy. And Sony [I]should[/I] try to stop that. [B]Do I personally wish they wouldn't? Yes![/B] I like less restrictions, even if I don't pirate! But I'm not going to be surprised or too upset when Sony inevitably closes up the hole and forces me to choose between continued access to their online services or homebrew apps. Sony did actually try that for PS2 and PS3. PS2 had an official Linux kit you could buy that let you basically take control of the whole system except for the DVD drive. It was a great tool for aspiring game devs and enthusiasts who wanted to use the machine for whatever they wanted. ...then the PS2 was hacked anyway and used for piracy. PS3 had OtherOS, which was basically the same thing as the PS2 Linux kit, except built into the console from the start. Fail0verflow posits that the PS3 went unhacked for so long because hackers already had OtherOS to sate them. That may be true to an extent, but the fact is that PS3 was eventually cracked open, originally via [I]OtherOS itself[/I], and used for piracy. Considering the PSP was also being pirated to hell and back by that time, it really shouldn't be any surprise that the next generation (PS4/Vita) was far more closed up and secure, with no official ways to run your own code on them. That's also not to mention the fact that nothing very notable ever came from those official methods of opening the console's hardware. I never heard about any major homebrew apps or cool games that anyone developed for these methods. Even when Sony set up programs (PSP minis, PS Mobile) that made it easier for more indie devs to get into developing for their systems, barely any good games came of it. Sony tried catering to indies and homebrew devs, and it didn't produce much extra value for their platform beyond catering to a very small niche of programmers. Meanwhile, their consoles got cracked open and pirated anyway. There's no incentive for Sony open up their consoles anymore. [B]I don't like it myself, but I can accept that that's how things are.[/B][/QUOTE] I would also like to remind everyone about fucking cheaters in MP games. Its not like PC where you can hope to be on a server run by an admin that can get rid of them. I remember the final days of the SOCOM games being just hell on earth because people only hacked for the PSP by that point. [editline]1st January 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Map in a box;49436700]Sony has done very little to promote homebrew style dev compared to Nintendo(wiiu dev program) and Xbox (xna program)[/QUOTE] Except heavily advertise for indie developers and use them as a boon between major releases on both the PS3 and PS4. Totally not doing anything. [editline]1st January 2016[/editline] Has everyone forgotten about the pure hell that was Xbox's indie dev cycles forcing developers to make their content for pay instead of free.

[QUOTE=eirexe;49437392]And? you can rip the game and put in on your pc and it's legal pretty much everywhere.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Shugo;49435002]Actually, depending on your country's copyright law, it can be [I]illegal[/I] if you're circumventing copy protection in the process of copying your game. That's why it's a grey area at best; it's not always a straight "yes" on whether you can make backups of your own games. Though you would be right in that most governments really don't give a shit either way as long as you aren't distributing it. However, this is all missing the point of my original post. It doesn't matter whether the game they showed off was "legally copied" or not. The point is that the first showcase of their hack was to play a ROM dump on an emulator, which does not set a good precedent for what the hack can be used for. It doesn't matter how much you argue that hacking consoles [I]can[/I] be used for legal purposes, the fact is that it [I]will[/I] be used for piracy. So you can't blame Sony or Nintendo for fighting against it. I'm entirely all for opening up hardware, like I said on page 1, but I'm not going to be too upset when Sony inevitably closes up the hole because I understand why they do it.[/QUOTE] [editline]2nd January 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;49437568]Has everyone forgotten about the pure hell that was Xbox's indie dev cycles forcing developers to make their content for pay instead of free.[/QUOTE] I remember that because of Valve's situation. They wanted to do free updates and DLC for their 360 ports, but Microsoft wouldn't let them. Ended up with Valve trying to stall to 'save up' lots of content from the PC versions to roll into bigger, cheaper DLC, but eventually they just ended up either giving up (TF2) or bending to Microsoft's model (L4D).

I never said that sony didn't make attempts, just that their attempts were much more quiet and less than XNA/WiiU. XNA was great, but you had to deal with Microsoft's terribleness. The WiiU SDK requires a dev console, which is very expensive.

[QUOTE=Map in a box;49440197]I never said that sony didn't make attempts, just that their attempts were much more quiet and less than XNA/WiiU. XNA was great, but you had to deal with Microsoft's terribleness. The WiiU SDK requires a dev console, which is very expensive.[/QUOTE] Quiet doesn't mean terrible, of the three companies, Sony has probably gone the furthest and seen the least amount of stuff come out of it. They made literal consoles for cheap, with linux, for people to build with. People turned around and used them for piracy. Sony has quite honestly never seen a return, infact some of the best selling indie games for the PS3 were games done by their first party devs, during their fucking free time. That's how little console hacking has done, everyone talks about the homebrew shit for the PSP but that was so few and far between.

[QUOTE=Swilly;49440757]Quiet doesn't mean terrible, of the three companies, Sony has probably gone the furthest and seen the least amount of stuff come out of it. They made literal consoles for cheap, with linux, for people to build with. People turned around and used them for piracy. Sony has quite honestly never seen a return, infact some of the best selling indie games for the PS3 were games done by their first party devs, during their fucking free time. That's how little console hacking has done, everyone talks about the homebrew shit for the PSP but that was so few and far between.[/QUOTE] I'd still give the furthest to WiiU, and Sony in 2nd place based on how well the programs were. IIRC the main reason OtherOS was used for piracy was because Sony removed it without warning AFTER ADVERTISING THEIR CONSOLE HAD SUPPORT FOR IT. That made so many people angry who bought the device -for- otheros. All the consoles I have unlocked/exploited I've personally used for homebrew and homebrew dev so I can't say much for other people(nor can really anyone without true statistics), but allowing for third party development with ease as easy as XNA was for example but allowing easier distribution would decrease the levels of piracy because people wouldn't need to pirate games to have fun on their console.

[QUOTE=Map in a box;49440774]I'd still give the furthest to WiiU, and Sony in 2nd place based on how well the programs were. IIRC the main reason OtherOS was used for piracy was because Sony removed it without warning AFTER ADVERTISING THEIR CONSOLE HAD SUPPORT FOR IT. That made so many people angry who bought the device -for- otheros.[/QUOTE] Sony stopped advertising Linux support fairly quickly and quite a while before OtherOS was removed. Nobody was really using it, so Sony stopped using it in pretty much all their advertising (I never actually saw it in a single consumer advert before and after launch, but whatever). It was an exceptionally niche feature included in the console largely because it was the first production model Cell BE system to hit the market. It didn't really set the console apart from the others as support was still fucking terrible. It probably saw more advertising for Linux in other countries to be honest, where home computers were still fairly uncommon. But it wasn't a main advertising point and Sony just straight up dropped it after a few years. We were warned about the OtherOS removal as far as I recall. As Sony announced the PS3 Slim, they explained "ye that shit getting dropped" without saying why (everyone knew why, it was used as an attack vector against the PS3 security systems before that point already).

[QUOTE=Map in a box;49440774]I'd still give the furthest to WiiU, and Sony in 2nd place based on how well the programs were. IIRC the main reason OtherOS was used for piracy was because Sony removed it without warning AFTER ADVERTISING THEIR CONSOLE HAD SUPPORT FOR IT. That made so many people angry who bought the device -for- otheros. All the consoles I have unlocked/exploited I've personally used for homebrew and homebrew dev so I can't say much for other people(nor can really anyone without true statistics), but allowing for third party development with ease as easy as XNA was for example but allowing easier distribution would decrease the levels of piracy because people wouldn't need to pirate games to have fun on their console.[/QUOTE] Actually, as someone pointed out earlier, OtherOS was used at first for things like super computers and such but overtime it was used more and more for piracy. The crack through using OtherOS was the final nail in the coffin.