Remember paid mods? They will come back! - Polidicks

I think the fact that quite a few modders became incredibly greedy is a minor point.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48927628]No one who wants paid mods ever wants to think about who the customer base is now, versus in a paid system. No one ever thinks about issues, they just blindly advocate it.[/QUOTE] Anyone who supports the current system of Bethesda releasing broken games and letting modders provide the unpaid labor to finish them isn't thinking about the issue- Oh wait that was totally a bullshit generalization wasn't it? Believe it or not there are people who have actually put some thought into it and aren't totally against paid mods. I'm willing to bet they're not posting here because this forum turns into a furious circlejerk every time the issue is brought up, and your 'if you disagree with me it's because you can't think' condescending bullshit probably doesn't change that. For starters, most of the problems you listed are licensing issues, something the software industry deals with all the time. Something as simple as attaching the GPL to mods would allow modders who wish to produce their work for free to ensure that other people can't cash in on it, while still allowing others to incorporate the mods in their own (also free) projects. (It's almost like people are [I]thinking[/I] through ways to try to address the real issues with Valve's prior attempt at implementing paid mods, instead of stopping at 'bad idea if you disagree it's because you can't think'???)

[QUOTE=catbarf;48928241]Anyone who supports the current system of Bethesda releasing broken games and letting modders provide the unpaid labor to finish them isn't thinking about the issue- Oh wait that was totally a bullshit generalization wasn't it?[/QUOTE] I don't think there's an easy answer for how Bethesda releases their games. They're often giant and I imagine bug testing them is quite the effort compared to what happens when the player base gets their hands on a game. Are mods "Fixing" a game by definition? I don't think so, there's a line there. [QUOTE]Believe it or not there are people who have actually put some thought into it and aren't totally against paid mods. I'm willing to bet they're not posting here because this forum turns into a furious circlejerk every time the issue is brought up, and your 'if you disagree with me it's because you can't think' condescending bullshit probably doesn't change that. [/QUOTE] I've heard all the arguments from major proponents, and I've heard counter arguments to their arguments! Oh my, what have we here. Again, you're going at it and saying "If you're not with me, you can't think" just like you're claiming i'm doing. [QUOTE]For starters, most of the problems you listed are licensing issues, something the software industry deals with all the time. Something as simple as attaching the GPL to mods would allow modders who wish to produce their work for free to ensure that other people can't cash in on it, while still allowing others to incorporate the mods in their own (also free) projects.[/QUOTE] And licensing issues can be complicated, especially when you involve the fans, the fans of other fans works, and you make complicated situations that result in people being put in bad situations. So if, say, SCSE(Skyrim Script Extender) wanted to be free, and seeing as mods literally rely on that, how would that work? [QUOTE](It's almost like people are [I]thinking[/I] through ways to try to address the real issues with Valve's prior attempt at implementing paid mods, instead of stopping at 'bad idea if you disagree it's because you can't think'???)[/QUOTE] It's almost like you're a hypocrite? I'm against the idea. But you're telling me I can't think because I'm not for the idea. Jesus. I'll admit I overstated "no one", but few people who do post worthwhile arguments are around, and they aren't air tight arguments either, neither side is really "right" it comes down to what you perceive you as a customer and as a hobbyist deserve.

[QUOTE=megafat;48928040]I think the fact that quite a few modders became incredibly greedy is a minor point.[/QUOTE] I think it's perhaps one of the most important points however. Consider that how a community based off of passion for the game could turn so sour so quickly should impress upon you the significance of how when money gets involved, people change drastically for the worse.

So i made two blog posts about this when it all went down, I strongly believe that paid mods should be a thing, I just think Valve went about it very poorly. The first article is about paid mods in general: [url]http://zachary.nawar.org/blog/paid-mods-and-the-steam-workshop[/url] The second article is about what Valve did wrong: [url]http://zachary.nawar.org/blog/where-i-think-valve-went-wrong[/url]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48928294]I've heard all the arguments from major proponents, and I've heard counter arguments to their arguments! Oh my, what have we here. Again, you're going at it and saying "If you're not with me, you can't think" just like you're claiming i'm doing. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48928294]It's almost like you're a hypocrite? I'm against the idea. But you're telling me I can't think because I'm not for the idea. Jesus.[/QUOTE] The notion that calling you out for your stupid generalizations is actually me telling you you must not be thinking so that you can pretend I'm doing the same thing as you is laughable. No, I never said 'if you're not with me, you can't think'. That was 100% you. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48928294]And licensing issues can be complicated, especially when you involve the fans, the fans of other fans works, and you make complicated situations that result in people being put in bad situations. So if, say, SCSE(Skyrim Script Extender) wanted to be free, and seeing as mods literally rely on that, how would that work? [/QUOTE] We're not talking about Skyrim anymore so throw that completely out the window, we're talking about the overarching idea of paid mods that you and others keep naysaying on principle. We're talking about a new game, a blank slate, starting with paid mods from the outset. If someone wanted to make an SCSE equivalent for another game for free they could release it with something akin to the GPL, stipulating that anything that derives from it has to implement the same license and also be free. Or they could stipulate that it's free and can be included in for-sale mods. Or they could make it paid and deny reproduction in other mods. All these issues of dependencies have been something the FOSS community has dealt with for decades so it's not like we're in uncharted territory. A more legitimate issue is how mods are going to handle dependencies and game updates breaking a paid product, because there needs to be some system in place for how to handle it when an update to the game breaks a mod that was paid for. But I don't buy the 'licensing is too difficult' argument.

Aren't TF2 and CSGO cosmetics basically paid mods? They are community-made content that you can buy.

[QUOTE=VintageCat;48929718]Aren't TF2 and CSGO cosmetics basically paid mods? They are community-made content that you can buy.[/QUOTE] Except you can mostly get them for free, trade for them, invest in them, etc. And none of them do any difference. TF2 is also free. And the mods that people care about are the ones with a major impact, like those huge graphical packs, overhauls, new areas and more. not really a good comparison

Spoilers: this will be a fucking mess

[QUOTE=Atlascore;48927433]ONE company gave permission to sell mods for ONE Game, which backfired hard, and also caused many game devs and pretty much the entire gaming community to speak out against monetized mods.[/QUOTE] We talked about paid mods back when this system came out at Blind Mind Studios and we pretty much unilaterally agreed 'this would be a good thing so long as it's moderated'. If there's somebody doing moderation for us, we'd be all for it. Unfortunately, it was a bad thing because it wasn't really moderated or handled well at all. I say this as a developer and a modder: There's a lot of people who'd be interested in rewarding the people in their community who make amazing content with money,etc. but which don't have the time to moderate and/or broker such things. Also, a lot of developers didn't speak up because people were so vitriolic about it; some guy removed me from his friends list after I gave him my honest opinion on the whole thing (the above) - it was obv. more emotional than logical. There's a lot of developers out there who're still willing to pursue that model and see what happened with Skyrim as what it was: A poorly executed transition without real announcement which was managed badly on every level and which prompted extreme emotional responses and horrendous amounts of abuse (e.g. content theft, 'early access mods', etc.).

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;48930562]We talked about paid mods back when this system came out at Blind Mind Studios and we pretty much unilaterally agreed 'this would be a good thing so long as it's moderated'. If there's somebody doing moderation for us, we'd be all for it. Unfortunately, it was a bad thing because it wasn't really moderated or handled well at all. I say this as a developer and a modder: There's a lot of people who'd be interested in rewarding the people in their community who make amazing content with money,etc. but which don't have the time to moderate and/or broker such things. Also, a lot of developers didn't speak up because people were so vitriolic about it; some guy removed me from his friends list after I gave him my honest opinion on the whole thing (the above) - it was obv. more emotional than logical. There's a lot of developers out there who're still willing to pursue that model and see what happened with Skyrim as what it was: A poorly executed transition without real announcement which was managed badly on every level and which prompted extreme emotional responses.[/QUOTE] Why do you think paid mods are good idea? How would they benefit the community?

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;48930574]Why do you think paid mods are good idea? How would they benefit the community?[/QUOTE] I think GMod was a great idea and it benefited the whole of the Source community greatly - and still does. It brought innovation, more community, and interesting content to Source. It certainly has driven adoption of the engine to smaller scale developers (Nuclear Dawn, etc.) - so it also has fed back into powering up the Source engine's standing in the developer community. I don't think all mods should be paid - and I don't think it should be something you can just click a box and get into (or be exempt from scrutiny from the point you gain access to selling stuff) - but I do think on the whole it's a good idea so long as it's handled and moderated professionally.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;48930589]I think GMod was a great idea and it benefited the whole of the Source community greatly - and still does. It brought innovation, more community, and interesting content to Source. It certainly has driven adoption of the engine to smaller scale developers (Nuclear Dawn, etc.) - so it also has fed back into powering up the Source engine's standing in the developer community. I don't think all mods should be paid - and I don't think it should be something you can just click a box and get into (or be exempt from scrutiny from the point you gain access to selling stuff) - but I do think on the whole it's a good idea so long as it's handled and moderated professionally.[/QUOTE] But GMod isn't a Half-Life 2 mod anymore. It's a Source engine game.

I never really understood the outrage to begin with. Okay, mod makers can choose to put their mods on sale for some passive income on the side, and they got a 20% cut. Considering that the mod makers are using somebody else's game engine, and distribution and payment is all sorted out for them, and considering that in other industries like film and music cuts like that are usually 10% for 90% of the work instead of 20% for 10% of the work, that's a ridiculously good deal. Why should I be mad about that again?

[QUOTE=catbarf;48929682]The notion that calling you out for your stupid generalizations is actually me telling you you must not be thinking so that you can pretend I'm doing the same thing as you is laughable. No, I never said 'if you're not with me, you can't think'. That was 100% you. [/QUOTE] You're certainly not leaving ANY room for anyone to not want this. You're argument is that there's nothing wrong with this if it's implemented well, so I'm not sure how you would be leaving room for the other opinion to exist? [QUOTE]We're not talking about Skyrim anymore so throw that completely out the window, we're talking about the overarching idea of paid mods that you and others keep naysaying on principle. We're talking about a new game, a blank slate, starting with paid mods from the outset. If someone wanted to make an SCSE equivalent for another game for free they could release it with something akin to the GPL, stipulating that anything that derives from it has to implement the same license and also be free. Or they could stipulate that it's free and can be included in for-sale mods. Or they could make it paid and deny reproduction in other mods. All these issues of dependencies have been something the FOSS community has dealt with for decades so it's not like we're in uncharted territory.[/QUOTE] I was using Skyrim as an example, but fair enough, certainly, lets run with a hypothetical. If such a mod, similar to SCSE was made, and the creators said "Nah, I don't want anyone making money from my work"(I bring this up because FO4 is likely to be our next title) then how is the rest of the market going to deal with that? And then how does this deal with the size of the market, and the cost of the products IN the market? I don't know about you, but I don't support 10$ swords. I don't want to buy that shit. And yet, that will, was, and will continue to be, the bread and butter of the modders who seek to monetize it. Cheap crap sold at a high cost in a high volume to deal with the limited market they have access to, who have a limited patience for being nickle and dimed. [QUOTE] A more legitimate issue is how mods are going to handle dependencies and game updates breaking a paid product, because there needs to be some system in place for how to handle it when an update to the game breaks a mod that was paid for. But I don't buy the 'licensing is too difficult' argument.[/QUOTE] Yes that is a very serious issue. How are you going to deal with a customer who now has a broken mod but that modders done supporting it? That persons spent money, and lost out on it. That's an eventuality that will happen with just about every mod, and every game. So I don't understand how on that front, you can support it.

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;48930618]But GMod isn't a Half-Life 2 mod anymore. It's a Source engine game.[/QUOTE] I have a response to that as well, but unfortunately don't have time to write it up right now. I'll pick this thread back up when I'm back from the game.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;48930628]I have a response to that as well, but unfortunately don't have time to write it up right now. I'll pick this thread back up when I'm back from the game.[/QUOTE] I'll wait for your rebuttal then, because I'm curious what a developer who supports paid mods thinks.

People want stuff for free and are going to complain about paid mods. It's pretty difficult to introduce paid mods to a community that has enjoyed them for free ever since they became a thing. Imagine removing free to play games from the mobile market, or payment for youtube videos. Impossible. I think what would be best for modders is try something like patreon to fund their projects and work on them full time. Problem is, it may not work so well in an environment like steam workshop.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48930626]You're certainly not leaving ANY room for anyone to not want this. You're argument is that there's nothing wrong with this if it's implemented well, so I'm not sure how you would be leaving room for the other opinion to exist?[/QUOTE] Please, calm down and quit being so defensive. You've made good arguments, I only take issue with your unfair generalizations, and trying to twist my 'I think you're wrong' into 'I'm right, and if you disagree you're a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal who can't appreciate my genius' is just ridiculous. I recognize that people can have well-reasoned arguments that I disagree with and I never implied otherwise. I didn't suggest that if anyone disagrees with me it's because they can't think, you did. If you truly can't recognize the difference between expressing a belief and calling everyone who disagrees with those beliefs an idiot, I don't know what to tell you. I suspect you can. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48930626]I was using Skyrim as an example, but fair enough, certainly, lets run with a hypothetical. If such a mod, similar to SCSE was made, and the creators said "Nah, I don't want anyone making money from my work"(I bring this up because FO4 is likely to be our next title) then how is the rest of the market going to deal with that? [/QUOTE] Serious mods that build off this SCSE equivalent will be required to release as free mods, and modders who want to charge for their work will have to build it independently. Sounds like the best of both worlds; modders who build an extensive mod from the ground up can charge for it, but someone who wants to cheaply cash in on the hard work of others can't, and those who want to preserve the much-lauded spirit of cooperation can do so. Is there a problem with that? [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48930626]And then how does this deal with the size of the market, and the cost of the products IN the market? I don't know about you, but I don't support 10$ swords. I don't want to buy that shit. And yet, that will, was, and will continue to be, the bread and butter of the modders who seek to monetize it. Cheap crap sold at a high cost in a high volume to deal with the limited market they have access to, who have a limited patience for being nickle and dimed.[/QUOTE] Will users support $10 swords? If people are willing to pay for it then I don't see how you have any authority to tell them they can't. All the same, somehow I doubt that that will be a more lucrative market than actual, substantial mods at a lower price point making up for it with volume. And somehow I doubt that anyone's going to corner the market on $10 swords, when anyone else can produce a free alternative. Have you spent much time with the Apple or Android app libraries? It's interesting how it plays out from a market perspective- if you make an extensive, content-rich app you can charge a few bucks for it and make a killing. If you make a simple, basic app and try to charge a significant amount for it, someone else duplicates your product and uploads it for less, or even for free. The way to avoid being undercut is to make a comprehensive, quality product that people are willing to pay for. Flash-in-the-pan successes like Flappy Bird are more the exception than the rule, and they don't sell for $10. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48930626]Yes that is a very serious issue. How are you going to deal with a customer who now has a broken mod but that modders done supporting it? That persons spent money, and lost out on it. That's an eventuality that will happen with just about every mod, and every game. So I don't understand how on that front, you can support it.[/QUOTE] Yep, like I said, that's a legitimate issue. This is something that could be addressed within Steam, such as allowing refunds if a mod isn't updated to be compatible, the same way you can refund a game that doesn't work from day 1. But that's not an intrinsic issue to paid mods, it's an issue for implementation, and it's not hard to come up with a solution, even if it's as blunt as 'if you don't fix your mod people can get it refunded'.

Oh how the mighty have fallen.

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;48925007]The problem I have with paid mods, along with another myriad of problems, is that it's fucking over the consumer over even more, and it would drive the community apart. In an industry where we're already nickle and dimed the fuck out of DLC, paid mods are literally DLC without any of the quality control that comes from the studios themselves. Not to mention the adding of money turns the community from a very cooperative group to a very competitive group causing shit tons of problems. [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1476771&p=48246713&viewfull=1#post48246713]I actually wrote a relatively coherent rant on this on a whole back during the actual paid mods being released.[/url] [editline]17th October 2015[/editline] Just don't forget that it will take the already pretty bad copyright system in America and make it even worse.[/QUOTE] In regards to the link you posted, yes. Exactly that. That's why [B]as a modder[/B] I think paid mods a horrible idea. Throwing money into the mix will not just encourage really shitty practices in a modding community, it'll [i]monetarily incentivize[/i] them. Hell, it won't even be a community anymore, it'll be competition, and when money is involved, it'll never be a friendly competition. It'll be the Unity Asset Store, and its effect on Unity developers in general, all over again. Why would you ever share any information on how you did anything if somebody can just turn around and use it for their own monetary gain? I can't say enough about how modding works on the principle of "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Modding is a collaborative effort. I'm not even getting into how this screws over the people who download and play mods, who will have endure the results of such a fractured and hostile mess. That's the main reason why [B]as a modder[/B], paid mods scare me. Nobody benefits from paid mods other than Valve and whoever the company that made the game is.

Ffffffffffffffppbt "It went really poorly last time, but I'm sure if we try again everyone will love it!"

[quote]But GMod isn't a Half-Life 2 mod anymore. It's a Source engine game.[/quote] Alright, let's define two limitations so we can discuss this issue with a little more clarity. First: "GM isn't a mod anymore." It's still valid to talk about in this context because at the time it was first sold it [i]was[/i] a mod and that's the area most people care about with paid mods: Unpolished, unfinished content which requires other content to function. Second: "When is a mod no longer a mod?" Very few mods are 'total conversions' - which is where I'd say the grey area of 'not a mod' begins. For the sake of this debate, we'll ignore total conversions as that's a less interesting area of debate I feel than less-than-total modifications. [quote]Why do you think paid mods are good idea? How would they benefit the community?[/quote] Alright, so firstly: [I]I could write about this topic for hours[/I]. No, really, I've had to revise this several times just to get it down to what's below (which is enormous itself) and I feel like I still wasn't able to quite 'strike the heart of what I think'. I think it's an interesting topic with a lot of nuance and, having been a modder myself before I was a developer, I'm pretty passionate about it too. In the interest of everyone's time [sp]and sanity[/sp] I've put the bulk of my musings onto pastebin if you want to read them in depth - and put a summary of my thoughts beneath the link for those who'd rather I just get to the point. [url=http://pastebin.com/jFcPDxVy]Abandon hope, ye who click here.[/url] I think paid mods are good when done well: When the mods which are being paid for are being firmly curated and who is being paid and how they're being paid is being tightly controlled and considered. I feel if [I]anyone[/I] from your fanbase is to be rewarded for the work they've done to help support your game's 'fun' it should be the pillars of your community's 'mod leadership' and keeping it to that circle [I]should[/I] keep the amount of mods you're committing to the support of as a developer to a rational, not-insane, number. And by the gods [U]you should be ready to support those mods as a developer[/U]. If you can't commit to that you shouldn't even open that can of worms. Any case, if all the above in that paragraph applies: It should reward your community with a merging of that mod with the official engine, which can result in tools and stuff opening up for the author as well as likely optimizations which should make it run better/faster - so the people playing the mod should draw benefit. The author draws benefit because they gain support staff and some real recognition for their work; like, that stuff could legitimately go on a resume especially because money changed hands. The developers draw benefit because more people may buy their product and people will speak positively of the move. In short, almost everyone wins. Will we ever be able to (responsibly) do steam workshop like mod-sales? I dunno. I don't see a bright future there just because I can't imagine how anyone could actively support such a free for all - it's just too much. For now, the vague picture above is the best I can imagine despite my enthusiasm. It works - but it's definitely not perfect and certainly not perfectly applicable.

[quote=Firgof Umbra;48934511]I think mods like Deus Ex: Revision should be given real recognition for what they've done to enhance the base product. If all things were fair, I'd say they'd earn some royalties for content like that - since they are, after all, directly driving sales. But - all that said - [i][U]I don't think it should be solely up to the authors of a modification as to whether they should be able to sell their work - or even for how much they're allowed to sell it for[/U][/i].[/quote] Mods like Deus Ex: Revision are so far and few that they are exceptions to the rule. They require teams composed of people with a variety of skills. Mods of that caliber are built from passion of the source material, and at best offer a donation link, which is usually just for server hosting fees. They know that by introducing a paywall, group dynamic instantly shatters as everyone wants a piece of the pie. It's not about whether they should be financially rewarded for it, it's about if they would even accept the money. Building on their favorite game is their reward. Money isn't a consideration for them. [quote=Firgof Umbra;48934511]I think Egosoft's got the best grip on it with the X series having expansion packs and 'approved DLCs' which include and reward community content. This has spurred significant positive change and improvement for their games through mods and has on the whole been a very positive experience for that community in general - I immediately would like to caveat that with 'this approach might not work for every community or every game'.[/quote] It's funny you mention Egosoft, because I think the exact opposite: Egosoft is why paid mods would be a bad idea. Egosoft is notorious for releasing horribly bugging games, and relying on the community to mod their game to make it playable. The worst part is that it has become accepted. That is the de facto case study for modders having the fix the developer's game.

[QUOTE=Ogopogo;48927295]That's not to mention a good modding scene for a game generally increases sales. I've bought several games due in part to modding (such as skyrim) and others solely for the mod (such as battlefield 2 for Project Reality).[/QUOTE] Which is why a cut for the dev is bs. They are getting something out of it. Taking 50% of the profit is almost nothing for the dev, while for the modder its a huge part of the profit gone. 75% for the modder should be minimum. [editline]19th October 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48927628]Mods are at best a hobby, monetizing them gives people the incentive to turn it into a "job" or income source. The issue being that no one wants to actually spend enough money on mods for anyone to make a wage out of it. Either a modder diversifies and does 100 mods at 5-10$ each, or a few really large mods for a lot more. Then you know what? Those large projects literally ALWAYS rely on a piece some one else developed. You now have an issue, because what if that mod is being sold too? Do you bundle it? Hope the buyer has the mod? Expect them to go buy a companion mod to aid they're already buying? Do you just put it in and hope for the best? How do you effectively price your mod if it relies on other mods? No one who wants paid mods ever wants to think about who the customer base is now, versus in a paid system. No one ever thinks about issues, they just blindly advocate it.[/QUOTE] Good point. The "philantrophical" nature of the modding scene is just plainly incompatible with the competetiveness of business.

Well Garry's mod never became free again so... Kinda irrelevant at this point. :v:

[QUOTE=Yummy Pie;48923978]Yes because Todd Howard never lies.[/QUOTE] "Radiant AI"

As someone who makes script mods for GTAV, I understand why people would rather do paid mods, but I still think it's stupid. I've received two total donations and I've been doing this for a while. Other people have also said that they've gotten very little. But we aren't really doing it for money we're doing it because we like to. Then you have the people who are just seeing dollar signs and release a half-assed product and expect $10 for it.

I just want to throw out that Valve themselves never explicitly said they were bringing paid mods back, from what I read of the dialouge they were musing about how they could've done the original launch better. Of course, I wasn't there for the interview, so I can't say for sure, but if you cut out everything Kotaku and The Escapist tried to imply and just read what they actually said, it sure doesn't seem to me that they're revving up to do this again.

The original way they went about the paid mods was the wrong way of doing it -- complete wrong way. There's a lot of factors, legal and quality-related, that would prevent this from actually making any real difference in the whole scheme of things. The idea was there, but it was executed way the fuck wrong. I'd imagine if it worked less as a required payment and more as a donation where you can throw the modder a few bucks or so if you want, that would work better in case their mod is good and you think they deserve the money. Plus, you don't really have a really shaky legal issue that could blow up in your face if you do the wrong thing. Might be a bit of a biased opinion of mine, though.