Wait so the guy had sex with the daughter and the only way it was rape was because she was underage. I can see how this would tick some people off the wrong way.
[QUOTE=Crabpeoples;42517176]Wait so the guy had sex with the daughter and the[B] only way it was rape was because she was underage[/B]. I can see how this would tick some people off the wrong way.[/QUOTE]
ok re read the story please
[QUOTE=Crabpeoples;42517176]Wait so the guy had sex with the daughter and the only way it was rape was because she was underage. I can see how this would tick some people off the wrong way.[/QUOTE]
She was also so drunk that she couldn't remember anything. The state they're in says that you can't give consent while intoxicated.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42516020]India, Saudi Arabia, Middle East; am I the only one who expected Pakistan?[/QUOTE]
Why is half the posts in this thread like this? You guys act like rape and ignorant victim blamers only exist in the middle east :V
[QUOTE=Gatsby;42517201]Why is half the posts in this thread like this? You guys act like rape and ignorant victim blamers only exist in the middle east :V[/QUOTE]
Not that it isn't, but threads on facepunch about victims of rape being harassed and punished are prevalently about the middle east.
if it wasnt for facepucnh i wouldnt even know rape existed.
Nuke the town plz
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42517218]Not that it isn't, but threads on facepunch about victims of rape being harassed and punished are prevalently about the middle east.[/QUOTE]
Yes it is certainly more common in the middle east, but we should be more worried that things like this are happening in our WORLD than it happening in a certain region, country, state or whatever.
[QUOTE=Gatsby;42517201]Why is half the posts in this thread like this? You guys act like rape and ignorant victim blamers only exist in the middle east :V[/QUOTE]
India, Saudi Arabia, Middle East and the US South.
[QUOTE=Gatsby;42517254]Yes it is certainly more common in the middle east, but we should be more worried that things like this are happening in our WORLD than it happening in a certain region, country, state or whatever.[/QUOTE]
My point wasn't it was more common there, my point was [I]facepunch threads[/I] are almost always about there.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42516881][t]http://media.edge-online.com/wp-content/uploads/edgeonline/2013/04/GTA-V-Trevor-9.jpg[/t][/QUOTE]
But Trevor isn't a hillbilly. "Hillbilly" doesn't apply to an average Canadian man.
All I can say is this: say what you will about Missouri but at least they have something of an appropriate punishment for the scum who did this. It's just a shame that their co-conspirators can't get the needle as well. I guess they'll have to settle for staying alive to rot in prison and be sued for everything they have.
And I hope the victim and their families do recover and sue them, the school, and the town for every single iota they do have to their miserable names. It will not make up for what happened, but unless this is some sort of fraud ala the Duke Lacrosse case (and I dobut it is) it should be a slam dunk.
Also: lay off India. I've been there, and they have incredible problems indeed, but that's also one of the reasons why they tend to crack down on tripe like this hard. And probably would have by the time we'd have heard about it. "Pakistan" would probably fit better with SA and the ME.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42516896]your guys' useless posts about how you expected this to come from a random country is not only symptomatic of your extreme ignorance and myopic view of other places in the world but also symptomatic of your extreme ignorance and myopic view of the issues that you face in your own countries[/QUOTE]
Your useless post about how you would not have known *Flipping Rape existed* without FP and attempt to claim some sort of moronic high ground because you are oh-so-sensitive and didn't jump to conclusions only exposes you are as ignorant and myopic as you accuse others of being.
Yes, I can guarantee you: this *is* the sort of stuff you would expect from the above, not the US. Not because I believe my fellow Americans are any better or more human than any other nationals or because I believe all Arabs/Muslims/ThirdWorlders/whathaveyou are rapist monsters (they clearly are not and never have been all).
It's just that I've also studied lovely things like slavery in the UAE and under Islamist law, and I can confirm that it is perfectly reasonable to believe that it is more typical of that then it is of the US, because *it is more typical of that then the State of Missouri* for various reasons I will not get into. There is *nothing* wrong with drawing conclusions or profiles, and in fact that is a reason why it helps to identify and crack down on tripe like this before it can spread.
It is wrong to browbeat people and play the high-and-mighty without reason.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42517260]India, Saudi Arabia, Middle East and the US South.[/QUOTE]
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggghhhtttt...
Remind me again: where is Penn State University? Then again, you are the person who saw fit to do a witty one-liner about Operation Ajax while having No Bloody Idea what it was about, so this somehow does not surprise me.
The bottom line is that the problem isn't even Right or Left, or North or South, or Rural or Urban, or even ethnicity or culture (and if you doubt this I have pleeeeennnttty of case studies to show you). It's about basic human corruption and it being used in sickening ways.
So let's knock off the mud throwing except against the bastages who deserve it in this case. Otherwise it doesn't help the victims any.
[QUOTE=Turtler;42517424]Your useless post about how you would not have known *Flipping Rape existed* without FP and attempt to claim some sort of moronic high ground because you are oh-so-sensitive and didn't jump to conclusions only exposes you are as ignorant and myopic as you accuse others of being.[/QUOTE]
i dont see how my facetious post exposes me as ignorant or myopic, care to elaborate on that beyond a vain attempt at wit?
[QUOTE=Turtler;42517424]
It's just that I've also studied lovely things like slavery in the UAE[/QUOTE]
the relevance of that being
[QUOTE=Turtler;42517424] and I can confirm that it is perfectly reasonable to believe that it is more typical of that then it is of the US, because *it is more typical of that then the State of Missouri* for various reasons I will not get into. There is *nothing* wrong with drawing conclusions or profiles, and in fact that is a reason why it helps to identify and crack down on tripe like this before it can spread.[/QUOTE]
i dont see how any of those posts will help to identify or crack down on "tripe like this". perhaps im not as optimistic as you
[QUOTE=Turtler;42517424]It is wrong to browbeat people and play the high-and-mighty without reason.
[/QUOTE]
not playing high and mighty, i never claimed to not be ignorant. im just making an observation.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42517488]i dont see how my facetious post exposes me as ignorant or myopic, care to elaborate on that beyond a vain attempt at wit?[/QUOTE]
Of course I would care to. In your own words....
[QUOTE=thisispain;42517223]if it wasnt for facepucnh i wouldnt even know rape existed.[/QUOTE]
Please tell me how being utterly ignorant of one of the most major crimes imaginable outside of an internet forum does *not* reveal you as extremely ignorant and myopic. And no, that isn't just rhetoric. If you have an explanation, I would be willing to listen.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42517488]the relevance of that being[/QUOTE]
The relevance of that being that it is neither Stupid or Irresponsible to keep ears to the ground about lovely things like the Middle East. In fact, unless they go off the deep end and expect that thing to only happen in places and with people like that, it likely shows that the person in question has actually been paying attention more than the people browbeating them for drawing a reasonable hypothesis.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42517488]i dont see how any of those posts will help to identify or crack down on "tripe like this". perhaps im not as optimistic as you[/QUOTE]
Directly it does not help much, but you would be amazed at how useful drumming up outrage and [I]channeling it in the right direction [/I]can be to people like the victims here. Facepunch might not seem that important, but it has an audience and that can be used for all sorts of good. Like letter writing or- even cheaper- e-mailing.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42517488]not playing high and mighty, i never claimed to not be ignorant. im just making an observation.[/QUOTE]
Firstly, I just want to say that I do appreciate the honesty.
Well- and I mean this sincerely- finding a better way to make that observation would be better.
[QUOTE=Turtler;42517563]Please tell me how being utterly ignorant of one of the most major crimes imaginable outside of an internet forum does *not* reveal you as extremely ignorant and myopic. And no, that isn't just rhetoric. If you have an explanation, I would be willing to listen.[/QUOTE]
facetious, flippant, sardonic. i was making a joke in response to someone's post
[QUOTE=Turtler;42517563]The relevance of that being that it is neither Stupid or Irresponsible to keep ears to the ground about lovely things like the Middle East. In fact, unless they go off the deep end and expect that thing to only happen in places and with people like that, it likely shows that the person in question has actually been paying attention more than the people browbeating them for drawing a reasonable hypothesis.[/QUOTE]
im not browbeating anyone (not sure what that even means to communicate as a phrase), im criticizing the obvious lack of social awareness about rape in the United States from the posters in this thread
[QUOTE=Thomo_UK;42514189]I thought this would be in somewhere like India or an arabic state where this happens often, but not in america, I thought people knew better.[/QUOTE]
The areas in america are wayyyyyyy more diverse than say the UK when it comes to how developed they are. While we have extremely developed areas such as new york, we also have places such as the Appalachian mining towns.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42516485]They did technically join the confederacy. That makes them the South in my books.[/QUOTE]we got 13 stars on the confederate flag and ain't none of them for Missouri
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;42517636]The areas in america are wayyyyyyy more diverse than say the UK when it comes to how developed they are. While we have extremely developed areas such as new york, we also have places such as the Appalachian mining towns.[/QUOTE]
I'd cautiously agree in regards to that- though a lot of places in the UK do look like history has passed them by or are reverting back like the North- but I'm not sure the geography has too much effect on it. I don't think-say- New York City could get away by acting like this town, but cripe like this really does happen all over even if it might not happen evenly (and that is a biiig If).
[QUOTE=thisispain;42517605]facetious, flippant, sardonic. i was making a joke in response to someone's post[/QUOTE]
In that case, I apologize. I was mistaken, and the sarcasm did not register.
So that much is a my bad on my end. But I think the other points still stand.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42517605]im not browbeating anyone (not sure what that even means to communicate as a phrase), im criticizing the obvious lack of social awareness about rape in the United States from the posters in this thread[/QUOTE]
My problem isn't the goal, because it is noble and damn important. But I'd respectfully argue it crossed the line from criticizing lack of awareness about rape being committed in the US to criticizing people who try and learn about rape abroad. Which I don't think helps either cause, to put it lightly indeed.
Still, thank you for clarifying. And I do hope that they make these scumbags pay for doing what they did.
Typical small town politics. I live in a small Michigan town and our quarterback + a few other star athletes were arrested for undersaged drinking (if charged you are forced to ,iss half your sport season) but before school started the charges were mysteriously dropped.
Why was the community outraged at the victims? It makes no sense. God people are fucking stupid sometimes.
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;42517715]Why was the community outraged at the victims? It makes no sense. God people are fucking stupid sometimes.[/QUOTE]
Because one of the rapists involved was a high school football player (hence a darling of the community), and another was the grandson of some well-known local with a long political history. This is how small towns work. It's a very clanish and simplistic environment that's oftentimes rife with corruption. If you know enough people, or at least the right people, and have a relevant enough reputation, you can get away with tons of shit. I'm actually surprised that this made it into the Kansas City papers, since so many of these little communities have gotten very good at hushing these kinds of affairs up.
There's also a been a longstanding, disgusting victim-blaming mentality here in rural Missouri. I noticed it when I was a young child and would come back here from Colorado to visit my grandparents, who were pretty well known in their town. If a guy beat his wife, she must have done something to deserve it. If a girl got raped, she shouldn't have been such a whore. Etc. It's just how these people have been brought up to believe, and they do believe it. They believe it unconditionally.
When I've got the resources together, I'm getting the hell out of here and going back to Boston. Honestly, I don't mind the part of my town I live in that much; I'm surrounded by old people who have lived well-traveled lives and don't think this way (for the most part). They like me, and I like them. But the rest of the town fits the drunken white-trash, conservative, Bible-beating, clanish stereotype perfectly. We've got more than 30 churches. I shit you not. There aren't even 5,000 people living in town anymore.
What is it with small towns worshiping their young footballers?
Where I come from, aspiring sport starts are treated the complete opposite, if they fuck up in the slightest they're dropped.
In the end they're probably going to have a better life as far away from those inbred hicks as possible.
[QUOTE=darcy010;42518071]What is it with small towns worshiping their young footballers?
Where I come from, aspiring sport starts are treated the complete opposite, if they fuck up in the slightest they're dropped.
In the end they're probably going to have a better life as far away from those inbred hicks as possible.[/QUOTE]
there are only two things to do in many of these small towns:
1) meth/heroin
2) football
Just another day in the middle east.
[quote]this northwest Missouri community[/quote]
Probably a good thing I wasn't drinking anything. Fucking WHAT?!
[QUOTE=darcy010;42518071]What is it with small towns worshiping their young footballers?
Where I come from, aspiring sport starts are treated the complete opposite, if they fuck up in the slightest they're dropped.
In the end they're probably going to have a better life as far away from those inbred hicks as possible.[/QUOTE]
In small town highschool sports are the only entertainment, football being the most populr results in football stars getting treated like clebs becuase in their towns they are.
"There is no patriarchy"
"Feminism is pointless"
"Discrimination against men :("
[QUOTE=demoguy08;42519050]"There is no patriarchy"
"Feminism is pointless"
"Discrimination against men :("[/QUOTE]
don't you even start
Avoiding the issues at hand doesn't make them go away buddy
Preaching feminism in a place like that would be about as welcome as a Gay Atheists for Satan parade.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42514605]sickening.
its funny because in that thunderfoot "teach people not to rape" thread everyone was going "OH BUT WE DO TEACH PEOPLE RAPE IS BAD WHAT MORE CAN WE DO?"
obviously we fucking don't because an entire high school basically said a drugged 14 year old was a skank who was asking for it.[/quote]
After reading the article there was nothing to suggest that the people, who were not there for the crime but were taking the side of the alleged rapists, thought rape was justifiable or not bad; merely that they didn't think this particular instance of rape was rape.
To be perfectly fair, the only people who really know whether it was rape or not were those who were there to witness it or were involved in it; the girl's family had reason to think it was rape because of the way she was left after the night was over and her reaction to what had happened. I haven't seen the video and probably will never see it because it is not exactly the kind of thing that will be released, it probably sheds a bit more light on the matter but I don't know. It seems likely it was rape to me but I've only read the one source from the OP and I in no way know the whole story.
To me I identify three problems and neither of them are that people think rape is good or okay.
The first problem is supposed small town corruption which allowed a strong case with decent evidence to slip through the cracks because of alleged tinkering with the legal process.
The second problem is that people take sides in a matter of which they have absolutely no understanding or knowledge of, no one should really be supportive of the family or the opposite because it isn't a matter that concerns them. It's a dispute between a few people and it should have never been taken past that; it's too easy to deliver only your side of the story to someone and have them rabidly defend you without even knowing if you deserve to be defended. You let this happen on a larger scale and you get what happened in this case.
The third problem is the assumption that just because a case has been dismissed or has went a certain way, that it serves to be an objective judgement of whether or not a crime has been committed. It's almost impossible, sans extremely clear video and audio footage that captures the entire event and all the context, to actually know if a crime has been committed or not. You usually don't get to know exactly what happened, only if you know enough that it makes sense to charge someone with an offense. If you're found guilty, you may still be innocent; if you're found innocent, you may still be guilty.
When the case was dismissed, I imagine a lot of people probably thought, "Oh, so she didn't get raped, she's just a slut." Which probably is not at all true, and is wrong to think unless you actually know what happened. But this problem wouldn't even be a problem if the former problem wasn't an issue.
[quote]"but women should be taking precautions!!" shit that was being flung around in the other thread. fuck this gay earth.[/QUOTE]
Everyone should take precautions for as many eventualities as possible, you can't always take precautions and in these situations you're off the hook, but the blanket statement that a woman never has to ensure her own safety because rape is terrible is akin to saying you should never have to lock your doors because theft is terrible.
It ignores the terrible reality that rape happens and is common, when you treat wanting to better prepare and empower women so they can protect themselves as victim blaming and blasphemous, you help to ensure that of those women who could have done something to prevent it, none of them will.
To say something like, "You shouldn't have gotten so drunk, or taken drinks from people you don't really know too well or trust." You're not blaming the fact that someone has been raped on that, you're still blaming the rapist, you're just trying to point out why the rape was possible so that anyone else who is reading can learn from the mistake.
In this particular instance, the two girls left the relative safety of the house they were in and were drove some place they couldn't have been sure was safe and drank alcohol they couldn't have been sure wasn't drugged or they could handle. If this was anything but a rape case, you'd probably be pointing out how idiotic this is on their behalf; granted they are 13 year olds as far as I can see, but even still, if you can teach your child the dangers of running across the road without looking twice, why can't you teach them the dangers of wolves in sheep's clothing?
What can be learned from what happened? Don't go out without your parent's permission in the middle of the night with boys much older than you that you're not sure you can trust. Don't let them drive you far away from your home. Don't accept their drinks, alcoholic or not, unless you're in an environment where you know someone can keep you safe should you lose control of yourself.
Does any of this change that it's the fault of the rapists that the rape happened? None of it does.
Do you understand how a situation like this could have occurred however? The girls didn't understand how much danger what they did put them in. Now you can't take the rape back by telling them how irresponsible they were, but you can inform others of what not to do by bringing light to what they did to endanger themselves. That isn't victim blaming, it's learning from the mistakes of others.
[QUOTE=Riutet;42519531]After reading the article there was nothing to suggest that the people, who were not there for the crime but were taking the side of the alleged rapists, thought rape was justifiable or not bad; merely that they didn't think this particular instance of rape was rape.
To be perfectly fair, the only people who really know whether it was rape or not were those who were there to witness it or were involved in it; the girl's family had reason to think it was rape because of the way she was left after the night was over and her reaction to what had happened. I haven't seen the video and probably will never see it because it is not exactly the kind of thing that will be released, it probably sheds a bit more light on the matter but I don't know. It seems likely it was rape to me but I've only read the one source from the OP and I in no way know the whole story.
To me I identify three problems and neither of them are that people think rape is good or okay.
The first problem is supposed small town corruption which allowed a strong case with decent evidence to slip through the cracks because of alleged tinkering with the legal process.
The second problem is that people take sides in a matter of which they have absolutely no understanding or knowledge of, no one should really be supportive of the family or the opposite because it isn't a matter that concerns them. It's a dispute between a few people and it should have never been taken past that; it's too easy to deliver only your side of the story to someone and have them rabidly defend you without even knowing if you deserve to be defended. You let this happen on a larger scale and you get what happened in this case.
The third problem is the assumption that just because a case has been dismissed or has went a certain way, that it serves to be an objective judgement of whether or not a crime has been committed. It's almost impossible, sans extremely clear video and audio footage that captures the entire event and all the context, to actually know if a crime has been committed or not. You usually don't get to know exactly what happened, only if you know enough that it makes sense to charge someone with an offense. If you're found guilty, you may still be innocent; if you're found innocent, you may still be guilty.
When the case was dismissed, I imagine a lot of people probably thought, "Oh, so she didn't get raped, she's just a slut." Which probably is not at all true, and is wrong to think unless you actually know what happened. But this problem wouldn't even be a problem if the former problem wasn't an issue.
Everyone should take precautions for as many eventualities as possible, you can't always take precautions and in these situations you're off the hook, but the blanket statement that a woman never has to ensure her own safety because rape is terrible is akin to saying you should never have to lock your doors because theft is terrible.
It ignores the terrible reality that rape happens and is common, when you treat wanting to better prepare and empower women so they can protect themselves as victim blaming and blasphemous, you help to ensure that of those women who could have done something to prevent it, none of them will.
To say something like, "You shouldn't have gotten so drunk, or taken drinks from people you don't really know too well or trust." You're not blaming the fact that someone has been raped on that, you're still blaming the rapist, you're just trying to point out why the rape was possible so that anyone else who is reading can learn from the mistake.
In this particular instance, the two girls left the relative safety of the house they were in and were drove some place they couldn't have been sure was safe and drank alcohol they couldn't have been sure wasn't drugged or they could handle. If this was anything but a rape case, you'd probably be pointing out how idiotic this is on their behalf; granted they are 13 year olds as far as I can see, but even still, if you can teach your child the dangers of running across the road without looking twice, why can't you teach them the dangers of wolves in sheep's clothing?
What can be learned from what happened? Don't go out without your parent's permission in the middle of the night with boys much older than you that you're not sure you can trust. Don't let them drive you far away from your home. Don't accept their drinks, alcoholic or not, unless you're in an environment where you know someone can keep you safe should you lose control of yourself.
Does any of this change that it's the fault of the rapists that the rape happened? None of it does.
Do you understand how a situation like this could have occurred however? The girls didn't understand how much danger what they did put them in. Now you can't take the rape back by telling them how irresponsible they were, but you can inform others of what not to do by bringing light to what they did to endanger themselves. That isn't victim blaming, it's learning from the mistakes of others.[/QUOTE]
How long did it take you to write all that Jesus Christ man.
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