Italy massively rejects constitutional reform; PM facing calls to resign - Polidicks

[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51478821]One hopes people realise this WAS about Italy's system solely and it doesn't lead to further anti-EU sentiment in Italy of all places.[/QUOTE] Only thing is: Northern League is primarily anti-EU. M5S is even doing messes in Rome and Turin.

[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;51478853]Only thing is: Northern League is primarily anti-EU. M5S is even doing messes in Rome and Turin.[/QUOTE] I wish you luck then, my friend. My dad goes over to Milan a lot for work, I hope this won't affect him or his collogues over there.

[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51478913]I wish you luck then, my friend. My dad goes over to Milan a lot for work, I hope this won't affect him or his collogues over there.[/QUOTE] I live near milan. Might we come out strong tho.

Euro's back up

[QUOTE=The Aussie;51478551]Going to live in Canada is stupidly fucking easy. Do it.[/QUOTE] It's not that easy, they actually have immigraton controls. I would imagine it be quite hard for an Italian.

To be honest, I would love if Europe could just go back to the point where we were all independent countries where not all of us were fucked whenever someone shat their pants. Yes, things were more difficult then, internationally, but people are just sick of the whole EU project and paying out the nose for the well being of people with low work ethics in a Mediterranean siesta paradise. It's the same as in the US, where the left ignored issues and waved away complainers as dumb, so the right are gaining a shitload of ground by taking advantage of it. The left have signed their own death warrant. The coming decade(s) will not be fun at all.

[QUOTE=V12US;51479453]To be honest, I would love if Europe could just go back to the point where we were all independent countries where not all of us were fucked whenever someone shat their pants. Yes, things were more difficult then, internationally, but people are just sick of the whole EU project and paying out the nose for the well being of people with low work ethics in a Mediterranean siesta paradise. It's the same as in the US, where the left ignored issues and waved away complainers as dumb, so the right are gaining a shitload of ground by taking advantage of it. The left have signed their own death warrant. The coming decade(s) will not be fun at all.[/QUOTE] I'd rather not return to a fully independent Europe that would have each country having its own resources for war, nor a Europe who's trade was restricted and freedom of movement impossible. Trust me: the EU project has so many benefits that the costs are, for the most part, irrelevant. It would be a disaster for the EU to fall now, particularly when things are going to get more difficult. Are there problems? Of course. But we can solve them by changing the EU - not getting rid of it. I think the tune will change once we see the full fallout of Brexit emerge.

[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51479520]I'd rather not return to a fully independent Europe that would have each country having its own resources for war, nor a Europe who's trade was restricted and freedom of movement impossible. Trust me: the EU project has so many benefits that the costs are, for the most part, irrelevant. It would be a disaster for the EU to fall now, particularly when things are going to get more difficult. Are there problems? Of course. But we can solve them by changing the EU - not getting rid of it. I think the tune will change once we see the full fallout of Brexit emerge.[/QUOTE] I agree the benefits outweigh the costs. But, I think one of the biggest issues that is sinking EU is the immigration politics, it gave a lot of fire to Brexit and I don't think that will be the only country leaving. If the EU had a sane immigration politic regarding the refugee waves then all of this could have been avoided.

Whats next? a brexito? or whatever... Italliexito? Is this the course italy is going at? any locals wanna clarify there has to be an o after it though... or an i.

[QUOTE=V12US;51479453] Yes, things were more difficult then, internationally, but people are just sick of the whole EU project and paying out the nose for the well being of people with low work ethics in a Mediterranean siesta paradise. [/QUOTE] What does this have to do with an internal referendum is beyond me. As for the [I]Mediterranean siesta paradise[/I], the Netherlands hold the dubious (at least if you were coherent, but you probably won't) record of working the shortest average hours in the entire developed world. The siesta paradises all work more than you by a large margin of several hundred hours (if not almost a thousand in case of Greece). Not to mention Italy is and has always been a net contributor to the EU budget, meaning we give more than we get back. The very idea of the EU came out of Italy (google Giuseppe Mazzini or the Ventotene Manifesto, god forbid you might learn something that doesn't reinforce your insufferable sanctimony).

[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51479553]I agree the benefits outweigh the costs. But, I think one of the biggest issues that is sinking EU is the immigration politics, it gave a lot of fire to Brexit and I don't think that will be the only country leaving. If the EU had a sane immigration politic regarding the refugee waves then all of this could have been avoided.[/QUOTE] I can understand some of the grevences around the refugee crisis (The EU hasn't handled the resettling well at all) but Britain had no right to complain; they were barely affected by it, and most fears around it were irrational fears whipped up by Farage. I think they would have left anyway, even if the refugee crisis had not happened.

[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;51479571]I can understand some of the grevences around the refugee crisis (The EU hasn't handled the resettling well at all) but Britain had no right to complain; they were barely affected by it, and most fears around it were irrational fears whipped up by Farage. I think they would have left anyway, even if the refugee crisis had not happened.[/QUOTE] They looked at Sweden, France and Germany, and though "hell no, we ain't having any of that. Gotta leave before EU forces them on us in droves".

[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51479582]They looked at Sweden, France and Germany, and though "hell no, we ain't having any of that. Gotta leave before EU forces them on us in droves".[/QUOTE] When was any EU country forced to take in refugees? The UK very clearly resisted (despite being partly responsible for the destabilisation of the region!), many of the other countries have been able to resist. The only ones forced to do anything in this example is Italy and Greece - because they're on the front lines. Yet out of all of them I've heard the least complaints.

[QUOTE=Blizzerd;51479564]Whats next? a brexito? or whatever... Italliexito? Is this the course italy is going at? any locals wanna clarify there has to be an o after it though... or an i.[/QUOTE] It would be uscITA if it ever happened.

[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;51479596]It would be uscITA if it ever happened.[/QUOTE] i've seen exIT on facebook before

[QUOTE=uitham;51479677]i've seen exIT on facebook before[/QUOTE] In any case, might Italy get a similar referendum, we are going to be in a huge crisis.

[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;51479596]It would be uscITA if it ever happened.[/QUOTE] ItalyGress?

Can somebody explain to me this whole fuss about leaving the EU? I thought the entire matter was about changing the parliamentary system?

[QUOTE=uitham;51479677]i've seen exIT on facebook before[/QUOTE] ItaLeave

[QUOTE='[IT] Zodiac;51479565']What does this have to do with an internal referendum is beyond me. As for the [I]Mediterranean siesta paradise[/I], the Netherlands hold the dubious (at least if you were coherent, but you probably won't) record of working the shortest average hours in the entire developed world. The siesta paradises all work more than you by a large margin of several hundred hours (if not almost a thousand in case of Greece). Not to mention Italy is and has always been a net contributor to the EU budget, meaning we give more than we get back. The very idea of the EU came out of Italy (google Giuseppe Mazzini or the Ventotene Manifesto, god forbid you might learn something that doesn't reinforce your insufferable sanctimony).[/QUOTE] The Netherlands having the shortest average work week means nothing at all. In the Netherlands, it's popular for moms to get a part-time job. All these <1 FTE's pull down the average, which is why the average is absolutely meaningless. Our efficiency and productivity are much higher, which is what truly matters. Italian banks are on the brink of collapse, and when they need to get bailed out, the majority of the tab is going to end up in northern Europe.

[QUOTE=V12US;51479453]To be honest, I would love if Europe could just go back to the point where we were all independent countries where not all of us were fucked whenever someone shat their pants. Yes, things were more difficult then, internationally, but people are just sick of the whole EU project and paying out the nose for the well being of people with low work ethics in a Mediterranean siesta paradise. [/QUOTE] Well, you can say goodbye to a combined European effort to help stop climate change, good labor laws, being able to enforce those good labor laws in trade deals, good environmental laws, good standards for products, Europe being able to hold its own in the world, etc, then. Of course the EU has problems but we NEED it [editline]5th December 2016[/editline] not to mention the country we both live in relies massively on the EU for its prosperity

[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;51480905]Well, you can say goodbye to a combined European effort to help stop climate change, good labor laws, being able to enforce those good labor laws in trade deals, good environmental laws, good standards for products, Europe being able to hold its own in the world, etc, then. Of course the EU has problems but we NEED it[/QUOTE] We could try an alternative, such as keeping the dialogue between European countries, but to not leave as much to a centralised bureaucracy in Brussels which is notoriously out of touch with the citizens of Europe these days. If the EU wants to keep existing, it will need some drastic reforms and some of the most unpopular figureheads, especially those whining about national sovereignty and national democracies undermining their EU rule, to take the hint and fucking pack their bags already.

[QUOTE=Anteep;51479285]It's not that easy, they actually have immigraton controls. I would imagine it be quite hard for an Italian.[/QUOTE] Of course they do, but getting your foot in the door with a 2 year working visa is simple as shit, and then getting permanent residency relies on you having skills that Canada wants.

[QUOTE=The Aussie;51481117]Of course they do, but getting your foot in the door with a 2 year working visa is simple as shit, and then getting permanent residency relies on you having skills that Canada wants.[/QUOTE] Can we speak about the referendum instead of how hard getting a visa is in Canada? We are hijacking this thread. Also, luckily my curriculum and my skills can help me on this.

[QUOTE=V12US;51480683]The Netherlands having the shortest average work week means nothing at all. In the Netherlands, it's popular for moms to get a part-time job. All these <1 FTE's pull down the average, which is why the average is absolutely meaningless. Our efficiency and productivity are much higher, which is what truly matters. Italian banks are on the brink of collapse, and when they need to get bailed out, the majority of the tab is going to end up in northern Europe.[/QUOTE] Productivity and efficiency have nothing to do with the measure of one's work (or lack thereof). Productivity is inversely proportional to labour intensiveness: high tech industries and financial industries have very high productivity, while heavy manifacturing and agriculture have low productivity. This reasoning that since you have "high productivity" you need less hours to do the same thing because you're not lazy, unlike those [I]brrr...[/I] Southern Europeans, is complete bullshit and shows that you're talking completely out of your ass and using big words you don't really understand to justify your own prejudices. The quip on the italian banks just shows this even more: the bail out is [B]internal[/B], meaning it's done by the [B]the italian government[/B] with [B]italian taxpayer money[/B]. You saw that the EU and Italy were having a big argument on this, and just assumed that those lazy italians wanted your precious nordic euromonies. The reason the EU opposed the bail out wasn't because we were going to grab your money and go, but because state bail out qualifies as state aid and is no longer legal in the EU since last year. We should have done like your German and French banking brethren and just have the european taxpayer through the ECB pay for your adventurous financial undertakings in Greece. In short, if the Germans and Dutch and French banks feed an economy like Greece with gigantic amounts of unsustainable cheap debts and then I have to foot the bill, they're responsible and virtous, but if the Italian government wants to pay with his own funds a bailout for their own banks, we're the profligate and irresponsible. If american/canadian/australian etc users are wondering why the EU is not working, look no further than V12US: for him and for many like him there are countries that are aprioristically in the wrong. It will never work if half the union believes sincerely that [I]Mediterranean siesta paradise[/I] is a valid and perfectly acceptable way to refer to a group of countries.

[QUOTE='[IT] Zodiac;51481305']Productivity and efficiency have nothing to do with the measure of one's work (or lack thereof). Productivity is inversely proportional to labour intensiveness: high tech industries and financial industries have very high productivity, while heavy manifacturing and agriculture have low productivity. This reasoning that since you have "high productivity" you need less hours to do the same thing because you're not lazy, unlike those [I]brrr...[/I] Southern Europeans, is complete bullshit and shows that you're talking completely out of your ass and using big words you don't really understand to justify your own prejudices.[/quote] Hahaha, did you even read what I said? Do you understand what "average" means? [QUOTE='[IT] Zodiac;51481305']The quip on the italian banks just shows this even more: the bail out is [B]internal[/B], meaning it's done by the [B]the italian government[/B] with [B]italian taxpayer money[/B]. You saw that the EU and Italy were having a big argument on this, and just assumed that those lazy italians wanted your precious nordic euromonies. The reason the EU opposed the bail out wasn't because we were going to grab your money and go, but because state bail out qualifies as state aid and is no longer legal in the EU since last year. We should have done like your German and French banking brethren and just have the european taxpayer through the ECB pay for your adventurous financial undertakings in Greece. In short, if the Germans and Dutch and French banks feed an economy like Greece with gigantic amounts of unsustainable cheap debts and then I have to foot the bill, they're responsible and virtous, but if the Italian government wants to pay with his own funds a bailout for their own banks, we're the profligate and irresponsible.[/quote] Like I said, when the banks are going to need to be bailed out, the billions are going to start flowing into Italy. [QUOTE='[IT] Zodiac;51481305']If american/canadian/australian etc users are wondering why the EU is not working, look no further than V12US: for him and for many like him there are countries that are aprioristically in the wrong. It will never work if half the union believes sincerely that [I]Mediterranean siesta paradise[/I] is a valid and perfectly acceptable way to refer to a group of countries.[/QUOTE] Said the dude who put his country in his username. I think the EU would have been a lot better off without the PIGS countries.

PIGS countries?

[QUOTE='[IT] Zodiac;51481305']Productivity and efficiency have nothing to do with the measure of one's work (or lack thereof). Productivity is inversely proportional to labour intensiveness: high tech industries and financial industries have very high productivity, while heavy manifacturing and agriculture have low productivity. This reasoning that since you have "high productivity" you need less hours to do the same thing because you're not lazy, unlike those [I]brrr...[/I] Southern Europeans, is complete bullshit and shows that you're talking completely out of your ass and using big words you don't really understand to justify your own prejudices. The quip on the italian banks just shows this even more: the bail out is [B]internal[/B], meaning it's done by the [B]the italian government[/B] with [B]italian taxpayer money[/B]. You saw that the EU and Italy were having a big argument on this, and just assumed that those lazy italians wanted your precious nordic euromonies. The reason the EU opposed the bail out wasn't because we were going to grab your money and go, but because state bail out qualifies as state aid and is no longer legal in the EU since last year. We should have done like your German and French banking brethren and just have the european taxpayer through the ECB pay for your adventurous financial undertakings in Greece. In short, if the Germans and Dutch and French banks feed an economy like Greece with gigantic amounts of unsustainable cheap debts and then I have to foot the bill, they're responsible and virtous, but if the Italian government wants to pay with his own funds a bailout for their own banks, we're the profligate and irresponsible. If american/canadian/australian etc users are wondering why the EU is not working, look no further than V12US: for him and for many like him there are countries that are aprioristically in the wrong. It will never work if half the union believes sincerely that [I]Mediterranean siesta paradise[/I] is a valid and perfectly acceptable way to refer to a group of countries.[/QUOTE] You can claim that its not the countries fault, but it is, the EU got greedy and kept feeding you guys money but in reality your government should have stepped in 20 years ago but it didnt because $$$$$$ Thats what you get, living in a pigs country.

What in goda name is a PIGS country and why is Italy one?

Ah, I see. Funny. Nevermind that Spain and Italy are both important economics (both bigger than the Netherlands - Italy is the third biggest in the Eurozone), or that tons of US businesses have their European headquarters stationed in Ireland. Clearly they should be kicked out of the EU, I can't see any economic problems with that, especially as Britain has left. Yes let's kick out Greece too, it's not as if they're feeling the brunt of the refugee crisis and yet I have heard not a peep - not a fucking peep! - out of them about it. Oh and let's shit on Portugal for no reason too. Nevermind that Ireland now [URL="http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ireland-contributes-more-money-than-it-gets-to-eu-for-first-time-34815450.html"]contributes more to the EU than it takes for the first time[/URL] after using that money. I can really only speak for Ireland, but I'll say it here, people who think they're clever using "PIGS" or whatever: we paid our debt, we did what we were asked, and whether you like it or not, we are the English speaking capital of the EU now and American companies love us. You need us just about as much as we need you.