Obsidian Entertainment Caves to a Vocal Minority: Controversial Backer Tombstone Changed in Pillars - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Thlis;47453304]So complaining about the joke is fine but complaining about changing the joke isn't?[/QUOTE] That's the polar opposite of what I just said I'm a defender of complaining of all types

[QUOTE=GeneralSpecific;47453287]To be clear i have no problem with the original poem. I thought it was funny. I have a problem with people believing that a game company changing their own game is somehow a free speech catastrophe[/QUOTE] It isn't a "free speech" thing. It's that I don't believe we should be responding to vocal minorities complaining about literally nothing and acting like that's fine. Lets stop for a moment and think about where that trend could lead us. Lets make a collaborated effort to stop X game from having X subject in it. I mean hey, it's our right to change a product that other people have already bought, and paid for, that's already in their hands, it's OUR right to change that product so it suits US, isn't it? No, and I think letting it slide on small things like this just leads us to an environment where we don't have the ability to stop it with bigger things.

Eh, as long as the backer is okay with it, I don't see it as that big a deal. I didn't mind it being in the game, but I don't feel it's any worse a product for it's removal.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;47453288]People are taking offense to the notion that someone felt it necessary to kill themselves after finding out the person they slept with was transgender I'm not offended by it but the difference between me and a bunch of people here is apparently that I recognize different people have different lives and experiences and read into things differently than I do[/QUOTE] Do you not understand how it could bother a person if they prefer one sex as a partner, have sex with someone, then find out they were lied to about that person's sex? There's nothing remotely anti-transgender about that sentiment. It's anti-deception, not anti-transgender.

[QUOTE=Mellowbloom;47453306]it's not like you're supposed to read the poem and think he sounds like a nice guy offended the character was potentially transphobic? good news, he's dead[/QUOTE] Which is why I didn't find it offensive. It's an inspirational tale of introspection

[QUOTE=.Lain;47453085]no actually, not true at all you've been banned here a few times for various reasons. clearly Facepunch staff are breaching your freedom of speech. why don't you go talk to a government representative about it?[/QUOTE] It's their forum, they're the ones who own it and they're the ones who get to set the standards of what kind of content they do and do not allow. If there's a disagreement with those laws, and I get banned, I can post somewhere else, it's no biggie. The comparative situation would be these same people seeing that the game has a problematic joke, and simply not buying it. Like the mods here refuse to sponsor a comment they don't like, the consumer refuses to sponsor a game they don't like. But here's the thing--when I get banned, the mods don't tell me what I can and cannot post [I]on different forums[/I], unlike these asswipes, who are pressuring Obsidian to make a change not just for them, but for everyone else too.

[QUOTE=.Lain;47453165]the larger group didn't a. pay $500 for that specific quote nor do they hold any rights to the game[/QUOTE] Neither did the people complaining about it, what's your point? In fact, the larger group of people you mentioned are the ones who actually bought the game, while many of the people that complained didn't, so they should have more leverage in what happens than those who did complain.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47453312]It isn't a "free speech" thing. It's that I don't believe we should be responding to vocal minorities complaining about literally nothing and acting like that's fine. Lets stop for a moment and think about where that trend could lead us. Lets make a collaborated effort to stop X game from having X subject in it. I mean hey, it's our right to change a product that other people have already bought, and paid for, that's already in their hands, it's OUR right to change that product so it suits US, isn't it? No, and I think letting it slide on small things like this just leads us to an environment where we don't have the ability to stop it with bigger things.[/QUOTE] But look at where the opposite trend could lead. Artists should be able to change their mind based on feedback without having to fear mobs branding them cowards or sjw-collaborators or communist sympathizers or whatever the flavour of the decade is.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;47453288]People are taking offense to the notion that someone felt it necessary to kill themselves after finding out the person they slept with was transgender I'm not offended by it but the difference between me and a bunch of people here is apparently that I recognize different people have different lives and experiences and read into things differently than I do[/QUOTE] TBH - that's like saying I can complain and remove something because I am a veteran and I take offense to people killing people, and it's perfectly acceptable to remove it because a few people on twitter agree. Just because a few people are offended doesn't mean the developer should have shut it down. Importantly, from the developers perspective it was anti-transgender, but it's a joke. Jokes are offensive sometimes. Did the developer think it was a joke? No. But he really shouldn't have cared that much. Anyways, again, it's such a small, tiny thing, who cares THAT much to have it removed/it being removed? It shouldn't have blown up like this and the title is sensationalist, it's bad it happened but what is there to argue here? It's all about perspective, there's nothing really to complain about, what happened happened, it sucks and imo it shouldn't have, but it's really up to the developer and the backer, is the unfortunate truth. The community is 50/50 split so it's up to them. I'm gonna stop posting now, this thread is moving too fast and most people probably won't even read this. But know this - you are arguing over nothing and you [I]will [/I]go in circles.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47453312]It isn't a "free speech" thing. It's that I don't believe we should be responding to vocal minorities complaining about literally nothing and acting like that's fine. Lets stop for a moment and think about where that trend could lead us. Lets make a collaborated effort to stop X game from having X subject in it. I mean hey, it's our right to change a product that other people have already bought, and paid for, that's already in their hands, it's OUR right to change that product so it suits US, isn't it? No, and I think letting it slide on small things like this just leads us to an environment where we don't have the ability to stop it with bigger things.[/QUOTE] Slippery slope all up in this. In the end, I guess I just disagree with you and believe that the company that made the game has every right to change it how they like for any reason. If you think irs your game, read the steam subscrber agreement.

SJWs get called a cult because they're blindly for any 'pro-progressiveness' thing without actually stopping to check if it's progressive or not. This has nothing to do with progressiveness, it was a pointless (and successful) attempt to bully a developer into doing what they wanted.

[QUOTE=hrak;47453314]Do you not understand how it could bother a person if they prefer one sex as a partner, have sex with someone, then find out they were lied to about that person's sex? There's nothing remotely anti-transgender about that sentiment. It's anti-deception, not anti-transgender.[/QUOTE] Of course I understand it and like I said two thousand times, I didn't find it offensive. My issue has never been with the poem and I haven't involved myself with this at all until Obsidian started taking flak for making the choice to remove it.

at the end of the day, videogames might not be art but they're sure as fuck made up of millions of pieces of it, and as long as you don't do shit with the intention of harassing and causing offence to people you should be allowed that freedom to depict what you want

[QUOTE=Zeke129;47453331]Of course I understand it and like I said two thousand times, I didn't find it offensive. My issue has never been with the poem and I haven't involved myself with this at all until Obsidian started taking flak for making the choice to remove it.[/QUOTE] Obsidian is receiving essentially no criticism for this, almost everyone is going 'grr those idiots made them change it'

[QUOTE=Te Great Skeeve;47453322]TBH - that's like saying I can complain and remove something because I am a veteran and I take offense to people killing people, and it's perfectly acceptable to remove it because a few people on twitter agree. Just because a few people are offended doesn't mean the developer should have shut it down.[/QUOTE] Very recently veterans and bystanders shamed a family for letting their children climb on a statue. What the children were doing was completely legal but someone took offense to it and complained. The family has very likely been pressured into making sure their children don't do it again. In that case, this forum overwhelmingly sided with the people complaining even though the "ruckus" they caused resulted in the suppression of legal activity through societal pressure. Why is this suddenly a huge deal when it happens in a video game? Second example: businesses boycotting Indiana over their recent religious freedom law

[QUOTE=Zeke129;47453347]Very recently veterans and bystanders shamed a family for letting their children climb on a statue. What the children were doing was completely legal but someone took offense to it and complained. The family has very likely been pressured into making sure their children don't do it again. In that case, this forum overwhelmingly sided with the people complaining even though the "ruckus" they caused resulted in the suppression of legal activity through societal pressure. Why is this suddenly a huge deal when it happens in a video game?[/QUOTE] Thanks for reading the whole post. God damn dude way to take it out of context. Anyways fangz imo this thread was a bad idea and the sensationalist / opinionated title did not help. [QUOTE=Zeke129;47453359]I never said that I disagree with you, I was quoting that sentence because it mentioned veterans and was relevant. [editline]3rd April 2015[/editline] Real life matters more. What's happening with Obsidian should matter less, no?[/QUOTE] You used my quote out of context to further your own point which I agree with some parts and disagree with others anyways. It overshadows my original point. Unless somebody misquotes me again I won't be posting, good luck to your "argument" for the next few days.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;47453347]Very recently veterans and bystanders shamed a family for letting their children climb on a statue. What the children were doing was completely legal but someone took offense to it and complained. The family has very likely been pressured into making sure their children don't do it again. In that case, this forum overwhelmingly sided with the people complaining even though the "ruckus" they caused resulted in the suppression of legal activity through societal pressure. Why is this suddenly a huge deal when it happens in a video game?[/QUOTE] probably because the ratio of shitty parents : videogame players here is just a little skewed

[QUOTE=Zeke129;47453347]Very recently veterans and bystanders shamed a family for letting their children climb on a statue. What the children were doing was completely legal but someone took offense to it and complained. The family has very likely been pressured into making sure their children don't do it again. In that case, this forum overwhelmingly sided with the people complaining even though the "ruckus" they caused resulted in the suppression of legal activity through societal pressure. Why is this suddenly a huge deal when it happens in a video game?[/QUOTE] because this is a gaming forum not a statue forum

[QUOTE=Zeke129;47453347]Very recently veterans and bystanders shamed a family for letting their children climb on a statue. What the children were doing was completely legal but someone took offense to it and complained. The family has very likely been pressured into making sure their children don't do it again. In that case, this forum overwhelmingly sided with the people complaining even though the "ruckus" they caused resulted in the suppression of legal activity through societal pressure. Why is this suddenly a huge deal when it happens in a video game? Second example: businesses boycotting Indiana over their recent religious freedom law[/QUOTE] There's a difference between video games and real life you know.

[QUOTE=Te Great Skeeve;47453349]Thanks for reading the whole post. God damn dude way to take it out of context.[/QUOTE] I never said that I disagree with you, I was quoting that sentence because it mentioned veterans and was relevant. [editline]3rd April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Tetsmega;47453358]There's a difference between video games and real life you know.[/QUOTE] Real life matters more. What's happening with Obsidian should matter less, no? [editline]3rd April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Mellowbloom;47453352]probably because the ratio of shitty parents : videogame players here is just a little skewed[/QUOTE] But surely people can still see the inconsistency.

I bet we'll see many more cases like this in the future. Political correctness is spreading like wildfire.

[QUOTE=Hamaflavian;47453318]But here's the thing--when I get banned, the mods don't tell me what I can and cannot post [I]on different forums[/I], unlike these asswipes, who are pressuring Obsidian to make a change not just for them, but for everyone else too.[/QUOTE] Plus, isn't the thing where the backer stuff is stored a simple .xml file? That'd make it trivially easy to mod out what you don't like so that you're happy without affecting the rest of the world. Oh no, what Joe said in his backer thing offends me! Oh, wait, I can just mod it out to say something else, there, boom, done. Now I'm happy, and nobody else is affected.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47453153]If a larger group was being ignored, isn't it? Like, just be definition...?[/QUOTE] But games aren't a democracy? If Obsidian agreed that maybe the joke shouldn't be in the game, that's it. They don't have to listen to the larger group that want it because it's their game, and their choice. If they listened to both groups, but still decided that they didn't really want the joke any more, more power to them to remove it. It's their art. Or is it only freedom of expression when you agree with it? People removing things doesn't mean they are caving in to pressure, or self-censoring, or being censored in any form if they themselves agree with the concerns. The initial tweet to one of the developers wasn't met with a "huh? what's wrong with that?", it was met with "actually good catch, we'll look at that". That shows developers inside Obsidian were concerned themselves.

Obsidian adds limerick > SJWs complain about limerick addition > zeke: this is ok and it's their right to complain Obsidian removes limerick > everyone else complains about limerick removal > zeke: DON'T removal-shame obsidian you shitlords they can do what they want ???

[QUOTE=GeneralSpecific;47453268]It sure is good you literally wprk for obsidian and know exactly what you are talking about Lol[/QUOTE] You may want to calm down; you're getting too worked up over this.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;47453372] People removing things doesn't mean they are caving in to pressure, or self-censoring, or being censored in any form if they themselves agree with the concerns.[/quote] You are smart enough to know that a public statement saying 'we agree with these concerns and will remove the thing' doesn't actually mean 'we agree with these concerns' hopefully

[QUOTE=hrak;47453389]You are smart enough to know that a public statement saying 'we agree with these concerns and will remove the thing' doesn't actually mean 'we agree with these concerns' hopefully[/QUOTE] No sane company will say "We strongly disagree but to save face we are going to remove it" while being under fire for that same reason.

[QUOTE=hrak;47453389]You are smart enough to know that a public statement saying 'we agree with these concerns and will remove the thing' doesn't actually mean 'we agree with these concerns' hopefully[/QUOTE] But it can also mean "we agree with these concerns". Obsidian are going to make a more detailed statement when the patch goes out right? We'll find out then if they really did find something wrong with the joke or not in that I expect based on the language used. Besides, I think the replacement is much funnier really. The "guy has sex with dude and doesn't like it" is Adam Sandler tier humour. We can do better than him, surely.

[QUOTE=Eonart;47453424]I just want to point out that the first person that complained about it and triggered the shitstorm was someone that "unironically wanted to #KillAllMen" almost word for word. People who backed her up were either just as loony or didn't actually play the game to end up seeing it themselves. I find it's more important to listen to the majority of your sane customers and not a minority that probably don't even play the game.[/QUOTE] Unfortunately, these people have perfected the art of creating the illusion of PR damage I wish a big dev would get targeted with one of these attacks and just weather the storm for a couple months or however long it takes, maybe it would tucker them out and they'd quit this shit for good.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;47453415]But it can also mean "we agree with these concerns". Obsidian are going to make a more detailed statement when the patch goes out right? We'll find out then if they really did find something wrong with the joke or not in that I expect based on the language used. Besides, I think the replacement is much funnier really. The "guy has sex with dude and doesn't like it" is Adam Sandler tier humour. We can do better than him, surely.[/QUOTE] The patch has gone out (on Steam) and Obsidians' statement can be found in the OP. It's impossible to know if what Obsidian is saying is genuine or just a result of trying to cater to a specific demographic. I don't believe that demographic is their primary customer base, and something which Obsidian may have seen as innocent at first might have been coloured by people claiming it was 'transmysoginistic' or otherwise inappropriate. It's easier to see something as transphobic if somebody else tells you it is and you look at it in that light. Personally, I believe that Obsidian made their own decision to have the comment changed, but I think that decision was coloured by the way the comment was presented to them. However, if the backer is happy with the change,it seems like less of a problem, since he is the one who spent money for it. And I thought the replacement was funnier, too. But I don't think that they should have felt the need to change it in the first place. Kind of had a hard time saying what I was trying to say in this post, but hopefully you can understand what I mean.