[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;36716965]It's the principles behind it, not the actions/products.[/QUOTE]
the principles behind it dictate that everyone gets to vote and no one shall be impeded.
don't fucking lecture me on principles. you have no idea how voting even fucking works.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36716959]and why is it necessary
you just admitted voter fraud is statistically insignificant.
so why the fuck would you make voting more difficult[/QUOTE]
"When you vote you are voting for the people who will directly influence your city/state/country's policies, and it should be of the utmost importance to ensure that it is done in an honest and secure manner"
The current system is pretty secure, but each little measure you take makes it even more so.
[editline]11th July 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lankist;36716976]the principles behind it dictate that everyone gets to vote and no one shall be impeded.
don't fucking lecture me on principles. you have no idea how voting even fucking works.[/QUOTE]
And everyone still gets to vote, the only difference is they're ensuring you are you at the poll. Getting a registration card is about as difficult as getting a state ID (aside from the 3 hour DMV lines). They won't let you vote if you don't have a registration card, so what difference does it make if you don't have a state ID? You go through a fairly similar process to get both. Both are good for certain periods of time, some state ID's don't expire for 50 years +.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;36716984]And everyone still gets to vote, the only difference is they're ensuring you are you at the poll.[/QUOTE]
yes because that worked out so well in the past. It's not like the voting rights act abolished that practice for a reason or anything.
I can't do this with you right now.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36717088]yes because that worked out so well in the past. It's not like the voting rights act abolished that practice for a reason or anything.
I can't do this with you right now.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, I have work in 4 hours.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;36716965]It's the principles behind it, not the actions/products.[/QUOTE]
Ah so you agree that the notion that voter fraud is a non issue but you want to obstruct people's right to vote on principle anyway? Is this the american way? Putting what sounds good in front of what makes sense?
[QUOTE=Lankist;36715010]You don't understand history, then.
Why should we?
What would that accomplish, aside from further stamping numbers on people's heads in an individualistic culture and opening the door to a lot of potential discrimination?
Americans don't like that sort of thing, and it has not worked all that well for us in the past.
[/QUOTE]
Because it makes stuff for people generally easier and safer as well. Need to set up a new account - you get a nice, relatively secure ID whcih isn't as easy to fake.
Want to vote - you don't have to deal with voter registration but just go vote and ID yourself at the votes.
Need to go outside the country - no need to deal with passports, but as long as the countries have a treaty, all you need is an ID.
There's a huge load of small areas where a mandated ID are hugely beneficial. Plus it ensures an ID access even to people who won't get a driving license and similar situations.
Essentially from what I understand, the US has the biggest issue in disenfranching voters during voter registration. Or perhaps not even intentionally disenfranchising, but more of an issue of someone making cash on the side. A mandated ID would essentially be able to fully do away with voter registration with the only ones who would have to register, be people who live outside of their permanent residence and wish to vote in their current residence.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;36718043]Ah so you agree that the notion that voter fraud is a non issue but you want to obstruct people's right to vote on principle anyway? Is this the american way? Putting what sounds good in front of what makes sense?[/QUOTE]
It's as much of an obstruction as registering to vote. This isn't 1900-1950. There's no poll tax, no literacy or competency test. There's no longer segregation, there isn't a huge gap in literacy rates. You simply are showing a state ID with a registration card. To place it simply it's like registering twice, once with your county and once with your state. The only way you could be barred from voting were if you forgot your registration card or your state ID.
[QUOTE=prooboo;36714579]It's to disenfranchise minorities without Photo IDs. Not everybody has a driver's license.[/QUOTE]
Yep, so instead I have a State ID I paid 12 dollars for, and it's good for 7 years.
[QUOTE=Ardosos;36714849]Remind me again how photo ID = white?[/QUOTE]
Look at statistics regarding lack of photo ID by race.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;36720593]It's as much of an obstruction as registering to vote.[/QUOTE]
Except as you keep ignoring, registering to vote isn't an obstruction to voting as it occurs well in advance, someone is helping you do it, and the result of not being able to register that particular day is doing it the next, whereas inability to vote on election day means inability to fucking vote.
[QUOTE=thisispain;36716701]a requirement to vote?
there should be no requirement to vote, that's like saying freedom of speech has requirements.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure being a Citizen of the place you're voting is a reasonable requirement.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;36720772]Look at statistics regarding lack of photo ID by race.[/QUOTE]
You are unable to vote on voting day if you don't have/forgot your registration card. The difference here between registering to vote and getting a state ID is instead of the government looking for all the stuff for you if you don't have it you have to find it yourself. You've got plenty of time prior to voting to get a state ID. If you bring a state ID and registration card the date of voting there's no issue. The only way there would be is if you forgot to bring an ID, or were too lazy to go out and get one. With the amount of time given before an election (presidential for that matter) you are given more than enough time to get a state ID, and those state ID's usually last through the next election if not longer.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;36720772]Look at statistics regarding lack of photo ID by race..[/QUOTE]
You are just as unable to vote if you don't bring your registration card!
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;36720772]Look at statistics regarding lack of photo ID by race.
Except as you keep ignoring, registering to vote isn't an obstruction to voting as it occurs well in advance, someone is helping you do it, and the result of not being able to register that particular day is doing it the next, whereas inability to vote on election day means inability to fucking vote.[/QUOTE]
To be honest the statistics can tell you two different things.
a) either it's much harder to get an ID for certain races and as such certain races are less likely to have one.
b) Certain races put much less measure into having an ID and as such are less likely to have one.
The statistic would have to also cite reasons as to why. If it's the second option, this law can be seen as a government push to get people from those races with less ID's to actually get those ID's.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;36728743]To be honest the statistics can tell you two different things.
a) either it's much harder to get an ID for certain races and as such certain races are less likely to have one.
b) Certain races put much less measure into having an ID and as such are less likely to have one.
The statistic would have to also cite reasons as to why. If it's the second option, this law can be seen as a government push to get people from those races with less ID's to actually get those ID's.[/QUOTE]
...did you just argue there's possibly a racial factor that makes people just not want ID?
[QUOTE=wraithcat;36728743]To be honest the statistics can tell you two different things.
a) either it's much harder to get an ID for certain races and as such certain races are less likely to have one.
b) Certain races put much less measure into having an ID and as such are less likely to have one.
The statistic would have to also cite reasons as to why. If it's the second option, this law can be seen as a government push to get people from those races with less ID's to actually get those ID's.[/QUOTE]
you do realize we already have voter ID cards. most have photos, and are produced with the same security measures as driver's licenses.
why not push to have photos put on all state voter ID cards?
Lankist, I've been thinking about it and I believe the best solution is to include photos on voter registration cards. That satisfies my idea that people need to prove who they are at the voting booths, but also isn't easily abusable by causing undo headaches on potential voters with them being unprepared.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;36728989]...did you just argue there's possibly a racial factor that makes people just not want ID?[/QUOTE]
More of a cultural actually. Certain societies inside of a state do view certain things differently - generally because they did not have to view them in a different light for a long time.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;36729094]Lankist, I've been thinking about it and I believe the best solution is to include photos on voter registration cards. That satisfies my idea that people need to prove who they are at the voting booths, but also isn't easily abusable by causing undo headaches on potential voters with them being unprepared.[/QUOTE]
Most states already do that anyway.
Texas doesn't, because Texas would rather reenact the Jim Crow laws than do what everyone else has already done.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;36729971]More of a cultural actually. Certain societies inside of a state do view certain things differently - generally because they did not have to view them in a different light for a long time.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.brennancenter.org/content/section/category/voter_id/"]There's evidence photo ID is hard to get for multiple groups.[/URL]
There is no evidence of some culture that makes people not want photo IDs.
Glad we cleared that up.
[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;36730435][URL="http://www.brennancenter.org/content/section/category/voter_id/"]There's evidence photo ID is hard to get for multiple groups.[/URL]
There is no evidence of some culture that makes people not want photo IDs.
Glad we cleared that up.[/QUOTE]
What I don't fully understand though, is why stuff like birth certificates are hard to come by in the US. Just seems odd to me - european.
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