• 12th Doctor is Peter Capaldi
    253 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Reimu;41725815]Um I'm an English student? One of the things I focus on is how narrative reflects its readers. Media is inherently charged with "politics" - from kid's shows to crime dramas, narratives inherently reflect their viewers' social and cultural beliefs. That's why one culture's mythological narrative is radically different from another's mythology. Ignoring society/culture's influence on storytelling is one of the most ignorant things you can do. Our culture is intertwined with the stories we want to tell. I'm not going to go any further than that, though, because this is a thread about Peter Capaldi's role as the Doctor - not if Doctor Who is biased or excluding others. If you want to have that conversation, let's have it in a PM or mass debate. I'm not turning this thread into a spiral about how media is generally geared towards certain social constructs.[/QUOTE] There's a difference between forwarding more progressive views and randomly changing characters for no reason.
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;41725863]There's a difference between forwarding more progressive views and randomly changing characters for no reason.[/QUOTE] We've already had a canon mention of a male time lord going female and vice versa in the current series.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;41725907]We've already had a canon mention of a male time lord going female and vice versa in the current series.[/QUOTE] The only time they considered a female doctor was back in the 1980s when Baker was hated by the fans. They didn't really think it would work because they thought people would see through the gimmick, so they got McCoy instead.
Acting skills should come before things like race and sex.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41725815]Um I'm an English student? One of the things I focus on is how narrative reflects its readers. Media is inherently charged with "politics" - from kid's shows to crime dramas, narratives inherently reflect their viewers' social and cultural beliefs. That's why one culture's mythological narrative is radically different from another's mythology. Ignoring society/culture's influence on storytelling is one of the most ignorant things you can do. Our culture is intertwined with the stories we want to tell. I'm not going to go any further than that, though, because this is a thread about Peter Capaldi's role as the Doctor - not if Doctor Who is biased or excluding others. If you want to have that conversation, let's have it in a PM or mass debate. I'm not turning this thread into a spiral about how media is generally geared towards certain social constructs.[/QUOTE] next you're going to tell me not having a woman or non white doctor suppresses people
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;41725863]There's a difference between forwarding more progressive views and randomly changing characters for no reason.[/QUOTE] I'm not trying to say that the Doctor should "randomly change for no reason." I'm just wondering - why does the Doctor constantly have to be a white male UKer? [QUOTE=Takuat;41726237]Acting skills should come before things like race and sex.[/QUOTE] Not what I'm suggesting. I said he's clearly a good choice. Cumberbatch was a great choice for Khan too - that doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't changed from Indian to white in the latest Star Trek.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41726758]I'm not trying to say that the Doctor should "randomly change for no reason." I'm just wondering - why does the Doctor constantly have to be a white male UKer?[/QUOTE] If the Doctor isn't British it's not Doctor who. You'd understand if you were British.
[QUOTE=Vasili;41726259]next you're going to tell me not having a woman or non white doctor suppresses people[/QUOTE] It contributes to a larger problem - where we have a lot of white males as main protagonists and very few poc women. Look at the world within Doctor Who, though. The Time Lord regeneration process purposefully creates a new character every time so a new actor can play the Doctor. Why is he always a white dude, then? The fact that people aren't willing to ask those questions is really stupid. It's a legitimate question - why is he constantly white? Even if you can create an in-universe answer for his sex & gender, there's nothing within Doctor Who that specifically calls for some white guy to play him. [editline]5th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Emperorconor;41726834]If the Doctor isn't British it's not Doctor who. You'd understand if you were British.[/QUOTE] Okay, why not a person of color? Why isn't he Arabic or black? There's 1,053,411 Indians, 977,285 Pakistanis, 677,117 Mixed Race, 565,876 Black Caribbean, 485,277 Black African, and 500,000 Asian people in the UK. There are a of British people who are not white folks.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41726758]I'm not trying to say that the Doctor should "randomly change for no reason." I'm just wondering - why does the Doctor constantly have to be a white male UKer?[/QUOTE] For me, you need a reason to justify a change; and there simply isn't one. It's not discriminatory to have a character consistently played by male actors. It might be interesting, and I'd not throw my PC at the wall or anything if the next doctor was a woman; but I just don't see the point. I'd liken it to James Bond. I know, James Bond is inarguably male, but the same could be said of the Doctor. He had a wife, and the fact that he referred to her as "his wife" rather than "his partner" indicates the sex is a set thing for Time Lords, if it could change, would not gender neutral pronouns be prevalent? There's the thing about the Corsair, but that could very easily be a unique thing about that particular Time Lord; which is strengthened by the fact that the Doctor pointed out that the Cosair had been both male and female, whereas he wouldn't have if that was normal.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41726842]Okay, why not a person of color? Why isn't he Arabic or black?[/QUOTE] Why should he be? Indians and Pakistanis are more common than Arabs or Blacks here.
wow "pakis"
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41726926]Why should he be? Indians and [B]Pakis [/B]are more common than Arabs or Blacks here.[/QUOTE] Not only did you miss the point of the question, you used a racial slur. That's a FULL 10 on the tard-o-meter.
What? Pakis isn't a racial slur. It's short for Pakistani. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Racist" - verynicelady))[/highlight]
These doctor who threads are unstable
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41726944]What? Pakis isn't a racial slur. It's short for Pakistani.[/QUOTE] I've only ever heard it used as a slur. [editline]6th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Zeb Brown;41726947]These doctor who threads are unstable[/QUOTE] Should we reverse the polarity?
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;41726952]I've only ever heard it used as a slur.[/QUOTE] Well the term means "Somebody from Pakistan". The only difference is that -stan is removed to shorten the word.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41726842]It contributes to a larger problem - where we have a lot of white males as main protagonists and very few poc women. Look at the world within Doctor Who, though. The Time Lord regeneration process purposefully creates a new character every time so a new actor can play the Doctor. Why is he always a white dude, then? The fact that people aren't willing to ask those questions is really stupid. It's a legitimate question - why is he constantly white? Even if you can create an in-universe answer for his sex & gender, there's nothing within Doctor Who that specifically calls for some white guy to play him. [editline]5th August 2013[/editline] Okay, why not a person of color? Why isn't he Arabic or black? There's 1,053,411 Indians, 977,285 Pakistanis, 677,117 Mixed Race, 565,876 Black Caribbean, 485,277 Black African, and 500,000 Asian people in the UK. There are a of British people who are not white folks.[/QUOTE] I actually I strongly disagree that the doctor is always a new character. Overall the doctor is in fact the most static part of the setting. He doesn't change massively. he remains a certain fixture in the universe. Changes some, but not deeply. It's always the supporting cast that changes massively and has also the most influence on how the doctor is like. The doctor has always been an intrisically stereotypically english character. It doesn't matter that some 3 million out of sixty three million englanders aren't white. They still don't change what people consider stereotypes. For the record that is still less than five percent. A woman doesn't also really fit well considering how the character is build up. It would have to be a pretty big change to him. Also consider the places the doctor goes trough at times. Now a spinoff series with the thing you want wouldn't be so bad. The doctor's daughter fits well. And a gay has been promoted to the lead of his own spinoff show as well (Harkness)
[QUOTE=Reimu;41726842]Okay, why not a person of color? Why isn't he Arabic or black? There's 1,053,411 Indians, 977,285 Pakistanis, 677,117 Mixed Race, 565,876 Black Caribbean, 485,277 Black African, and 500,000 Asian people in the UK. There are a of British people who are not white folks.[/QUOTE] Because, like you said, Peter Capuldi is a great actor. If you had to choose between a mediocre poc actor and Peter Capuldi would you pick the poc? We don't even know if there have been any good poc actors who've auditioned. For example if someone like Idris Elba auditioned for the next Doctor and he had a good performance do you really think there would be that much of an outcry from the BBC or fans?
[QUOTE=Emperorconor;41726965]Well the term means "Somebody from Pakistan". The only difference is that -stan is removed to shorten the word.[/QUOTE] Well then, I guess this is similar to some people considering "damn" a swear word.
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;41726902]For me, you need a reason to justify a change; and there simply isn't one. It's not discriminatory to have a character consistently played by male actors.[/quote] There's a gigantic open frontier created by a woman Doctor. What kind of dynamic and relationships would she explore? Where would she go in time? How would she act compared to her predecessors? Gender equality is understanding that changing a character's gender is justifiable if a.) the universe allows it, and b.) it brings a lot of positive creative energy into a show. There are certain series that require men as leads for the sake of continuity, historical accuracy, or thematic interpretation. Metal Gear Solid constantly needs a David Hayter-esque voice actor because, in canon universe, Snake is always a man. Band of Brothers and The Pacific required men as leads because men were fighting on the frontlines. Doctor Who has a lot more flexibility about who can play the lead. Saying, "Things shouldn't change unless someone proves they should" is a pretty moot argument when it's clear that you could have a strong, viable female Doctor playing a part. The same thing happened with "Elementary" - there was no reason to turn Waston into a woman. But, "Elementary" created a female Waston anyway. And it turned out very well. Slamming your head against the wall and saying "I don't want things to change!" because you're opposed to change is shutting out good opportunities. [quote]I'd liken it to James Bond. I know, James Bond is inarguably male, but the same could be said of the Doctor. He had a wife, and the fact that he referred to her as "his wife" rather than "his partner" indicates the sex is a set thing for Time Lords, if it could change, would not gender neutral pronouns be prevalent?[/quote] The Doctor could be referencing his wife in the context of his current rendition; i.e. it would be "his wife" because he's currently a man. It's like transgender individuals. An individual who is born male, but hasn't fully realized their transgender characteristics would still refer to themselves as "he" before transitioning into a "she." Again, series like James Bond or MGS have male leads for obvious reasons - they both rely a lot more on modern gender roles in order to tell their stories (especially Bond, who sleeps with as many women as he does kill men). Doctor Who is a little bit more flexible, because the universe doesn't strictly define who the Doctor should be. He's an alien, after all.
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;41727006]Well then, I guess this is similar to some people considering "damn" a swear word.[/QUOTE] or the same way people consider the n-word to be offensive
The character of the doctor is still intrinsically male to be honest. He acts incredibly male and a change to a female just wouldn't make sense at all to me. A spinoff series with someone like his daughter would work very well but not the doctor himself.
[QUOTE=Takuat;41726990]Because, like you said, Peter Capuldi is a great actor. If you had to choose between a mediocre poc actor and Peter Capuldi would you pick the poc? We don't even know if there have been any good poc actors who've auditioned. For example if someone like Idris Elba auditioned for the next Doctor and he had a good performance do you really think there would be that much of an outcry from the BBC or fans?[/QUOTE] Are you trying to tell me that Peter Capaldi is greater than every poc actor who tried out for the Doctor? Even if he was better than many, there certainly would be poc actors who challenged his skills. We don't know who auditioned for Houdini, anyway. For all we know, there could've been a mixed bag of amazing poc actors and amazing white actors. Also, I'm not trying to suggest that fans would boycott the show. I'm just wondering why the casters constantly create a Doctor who is white.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41727062]Are you trying to tell me that Peter Capaldi is greater than every poc actor who tried out for the Doctor? Even if he was better than many, there certainly would be poc actors who challenged his skills. We don't know who auditioned for Houdini, anyway. For all we know, there could've been a mixed bag of amazing poc actors and amazing white actors. Also, I'm not trying to suggest that fans would boycott the show. I'm just wondering why the casters constantly create a Doctor who is white.[/QUOTE] Because the doctor = stereotypical middle to high class English male.Doctor who is already featuring a massive number of nonwhite characters. I'd gather a lot more than 5% of the named ones were not white even in the UK based episodes.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;41727044]The character of the doctor is still intrinsically male to be honest. He acts incredibly male and a change to a female just wouldn't make sense at all to me. A spinoff series with someone like his daughter would work very well but not the doctor himself.[/QUOTE] I like your spinoff idea, but the Doctor could also be a tomboy :v:
[QUOTE=Reimu;41726842]It contributes to a larger problem - where we have a lot of white males as main protagonists and very few poc women. Look at the world within Doctor Who, though. The Time Lord regeneration process purposefully creates a new character every time so a new actor can play the Doctor. Why is he always a white dude, then? The fact that people aren't willing to ask those questions is really stupid. It's a legitimate question - why is he constantly white? Even if you can create an in-universe answer for his sex & gender, there's nothing within Doctor Who that specifically calls for some white guy to play him. [editline]5th August 2013[/editline] Okay, why not a person of color? Why isn't he Arabic or black? There's 1,053,411 Indians, 977,285 Pakistanis, 677,117 Mixed Race, 565,876 Black Caribbean, 485,277 Black African, and 500,000 Asian people in the UK. There are a of British people who are not white folks.[/QUOTE] you care more about inserting your ideology into the show than the actual universe itself. why do you want him to be a woman or a non white, because somehow a white doctor who suppresses women and non whites? this is a pathetic grasp at straws.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41727095]I like your spinoff idea, but the Doctor could also be a tomboy :v:[/QUOTE] No. A tomboy still acts female in little things. Just like an effiminate man will often act like a guy in other small things. And if you had a doctor that was basically a guy with breasts and a vag why not make him a guy anyway? EDIT Look at your posts. Its obvious you want the character changed just because it fits into your personal ideology. Not because it would fit in with or improve the character. A change like that is always bad.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41727028]There's a gigantic open frontier created by a woman Doctor. What kind of dynamic and relationships would she explore? Where would she go in time? How would she act compared to her predecessors?[/quote] That would probably be better explored through a spin-off; the Doctor's shenanigans simply don't change enough between regenerations. [QUOTE=Reimu;41727028]Gender equality is understanding that changing a character's gender is justifiable if a.) the universe allows it, and b.) it brings a lot of positive creative energy into a show. There are certain series that require men as leads for the sake of continuity, historical accuracy, or thematic interpretation. Metal Gear Solid constantly needs a David Hayter-esque voice actor because, in canon universe, Snake is always a man. Band of Brothers and The Pacific required men as leads because men were fighting on the frontlines.[/quote] I would argue that the Doctor is always male. This is either his final or penultimate natural regeneration. If Time Lords changed sex, he almost certainly would have by now. [QUOTE=Reimu;41727028]Doctor Who has a lot more flexibility about who can play the lead. Saying, "Things shouldn't change unless someone proves they should" is a pretty moot argument when it's clear that you could have a strong, viable female Doctor playing a part. The same thing happened with "Elementary" - there was no reason to turn Waston into a woman. But, "Elementary" created a female Waston anyway. And it turned out very well. Slamming your head against the wall and saying "I don't want things to change!" because you're opposed to change is shutting out good opportunities.[/quote] I'm not opposed to change, I wouldn't give up on the show if a female doctor was announced, but I won't support that change until it is justified for me. I'm all for gender equality, but I'm against changing established characters in the name of it. [QUOTE=Reimu;41727028]The Doctor could be referencing his wife in the context of his current rendition; i.e. it would be "his wife" because he's currently a man. It's like transgender individuals. An individual who is born male, but hasn't fully realized their transgender characteristics would still refer to themselves as "he" before transitioning into a "she."[/quote] Surely though, someone who watched a transgender person transition would refer to them as a "he" before and a "she" after. The sex of the person using the pronoun doesn't effect the sex of the received pronoun; at least not in English.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41727095]I like your spinoff idea, but the Doctor could also be a tomboy :v:[/QUOTE] so you basically want a male with a vagina.
What would changing his gender achieve exactly?
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