• Trump questioned who is really behind anti-Semitic threats and vandalism, official says
    75 replies, posted
[QUOTE=archangel125;51892013]sgman, I seem to recall in a previous conversation that you made the assertion that the police department and judiciary in Ferguson were not deliberately targeting African Americans.[/QUOTE] Then you totally misunderstood my argument. My entire point was the report made by the DOJ relied completely on the assumption that correlation = causation, and therefore failed to establish racism as the cause. It wasn't really scientific at all. Their argument came down to black people being overrepresented in various statistics and assuming that racism was the cause. This is clearly fallacious reasoning. Does this prove that there wasn't racism? Of course not. It just means that we don't know how much of a role racism played. [QUOTE]This time, I'm making you do the legwork. Let's see what you've got.[/QUOTE] You can try to shift the burden of proof all you want, but I'm not going to bite. You want to stand on that list, then you need to provide evidence of it's veracity.
[QUOTE=-nesto-;51892016]Well, for starters from the SPLC [url]http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/north-park-fabricated-notes-402556366.html[/url] [url]http://www.phillyvoice.com/police-no-official-report-ugly-racial-incident-del-gas-station/[/url] And high profile nationwide cases that turned out to be bullshit [url]http://people.com/crime/muslim-girl-charged-false-report/[/url] [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/11/10/women-in-hijabs-on-2-campuses-say-they-were-attacked-by-men-invoking-donald-trump/[/url] [url]http://www.mediaite.com/online/black-man-charged-with-arson-for-burning-of-african-american-church-spray-painted-with-vote-trump/[/url] Unrelated to Trump but nonetheless topical [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/10/30/suspect-arrested-for-arson-following-string-of-st-louis-church-fires/?utm_term=.182fb3c554d9[/url] Everyone thought those dirty nazis were going around burning black churches during Mike Brown and lo and behold it was a black dude doing it. The fact is, people fake attacks and damage to further their political goals. I'm not saying the JCC threats and the cemetery vandalism are false flags but it's entirely plausible that it could be.[/QUOTE] Six. All you've got is six cases? Come on. I posted a list of 1064. Let's cut out 50% of the hate crimes on that list, give you an easier time. Let's call it 532. I want you to find me proof that a considerable portion of those are being faked. Else the point I made about you at the very start, that you're ignoring the big picture deliberately, is true.
[QUOTE=archangel125;51892022]Six. All you've got is six cases? Come on. I posted a list of 1064. Let's cut out 50% of the hate crimes on that list, give you an easier time. Let's call it 532. I want you to find me proof that a considerable portion of those are being faked. Else the point I made about you at the very start, that you're ignoring the big picture deliberately, is true.[/QUOTE] No, you posted a biased website saying that they have 1,064 with only a few handpicked examples (that were still totally unverified).
[QUOTE=sgman91;51892020]Then you totally misunderstood my argument. My entire point was the report made by the DOJ relied completely on the assumption that correlation = causation, and therefore failed to establish racism as the cause. It wasn't really scientific at all. Their argument came down to black people being overrepresented in various statistics and assuming that racism was the cause. This is clearly fallacious reasoning. Does this prove that there wasn't racism? Of course not. It just means that we don't know how much of a role racism played. [/QUOTE] Again, you're misrepresenting what the report said, and I pointed this out to you. You ignored it because it was inconvenient. You've no intellectual integrity whatsoever. The investigation reached the conclusion it did not only because of the statistics, but because of memos, e-mails, correspondence internally within the courts and the police department there. How convenient that you forgot.
Your list is shit. They cite twitter and web submissions as proof. Try again.
[QUOTE=archangel125;51892030]Again, you're misrepresenting what the report said, and I pointed this out to you. You ignored it because it was inconvenient. You've no intellectual integrity whatsoever. The investigation reached the conclusion it did not only because of the statistics, but because of memos, e-mails, correspondence internally within the courts and the police department there. How convenient that you forgot.[/QUOTE] No, I very much remember, you're just entirely exaggerating what they found. There were a few racist jokes and statements made by a small number of specific individuals. To extrapolate those to the entire force and to all the statistics is hilariously unscientific. Just to be clear: they could even establish that an officer was undoubtedly racist, something that they didn't even come close to doing, and it STILL wouldn't prove that the overrepresentation of black people by that officer was caused by that racism.
[QUOTE=-nesto-;51892035]Your list is shit. They cite twitter and web submissions as proof. Try again.[/QUOTE] I posted a list carried by CNN of 100 bomb threats against Jewish cultural centres and schools since January. You've only come up with six crimes that were faked. Shit, you couldn't even come up with as many that were fake as the SLPC themselves.
Just letting yall know the original source stems back to Buzzfeed news. [media]https://twitter.com/chrisgeidner/status/836665097313464320[/media] So you know treat it as you will.
[QUOTE=archangel125;51892047]I posted a list carried by CNN of 100 bomb threats against Jewish cultural centres and schools since January. You've only come up with six crimes that were faked. Shit, you couldn't even come up with as many that were fake as the SLPC themselves.[/QUOTE] ... and we have no idea where or who the threats came from. None at all. Your article even says that law enforcement agencies think that they may have come from outside the US. I'll be interested to see, but until then they aren't really support for anything. [editline]28th February 2017[/editline] As a side note, the SPLC didn't find those fake cases. They had those on their list as correct, but were informed that they were fake and had to remove them. If anything, it shows how little they do to verify the claims.
[QUOTE=sgman91;51892042]No, I very much remember, you're just entirely exaggerating what they found. There were a few racist jokes and statements made by a small number of specific individuals. To extrapolate those to the entire force and to all the statistics is hilariously unscientific. Just to be clear: they could even establish that an officer was undoubtedly racist, something that they didn't even come close to doing, and it STILL wouldn't prove that the overrepresentation of black people by that officer was caused by that racism.[/QUOTE] [url]https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/The-Gangsters-Of-Ferguson/386893/[/url] This is a pretty good analysis that goes into the individual cases and talks a little, if not enough, about what the statistics mean. On one hand, the misconduct of the Ferguson courts and police was revenue driven. On the other, the statistics of disproportionately targeting blacks, along with the correspondence and the statements about 'personal responsibility' from Ferguson officials, together constitute damning evidence - the very point I was making. You, too, are making the mistake of ignoring the big picture and choosing to pretend that the entire conclusion was drawn from one piece of the evidence - the very thing I accused Nesto of doing.
[QUOTE=archangel125;51892047]I posted a list carried by CNN of 100 bomb threats against Jewish cultural centres and schools since January. You've only come up with six crimes that were faked. Shit, you couldn't even come up with as many that were fake as the SLPC themselves.[/QUOTE] The JCC and headstone vandals are unknown.
Look, let me be clear, sgman, because you seem to be having trouble understanding my point. Nesto made the assertion that there have been 'a lot' of faked cases of hate crimes, to defend Trump's suggestion that the headstone attacks were a false flag. See, I never denied once that there would be a small number of faked cases. My argument has been that the number of faked cases is utterly insignificant and does not justify a defense of Trump's comments. I pointed out that unless he could prove that there were a significant number of faked cases, he was full of shit. If 1064 cases of racially motivated incidents have been reported, surely there'd be documentation of a significant number that were proven false. That is what you, and he, have to prove. Until you can do that, none of what you say holds water.
Until you can prove 1064 facebook posts, tweets, and web submissions are verified and not anecdotal(which the SPLC acknowledges they are) what you say holds no water. A Facepunch poll is about as credible as the shit your tryin to push bud. Surely you can find DoJ or FBI numbers to make your case.
[QUOTE=-nesto-;51892134]Until you can prove 1064 facebook posts, tweets, and web submissions are verified and not anecdotal(which the SPLC acknowledges they are) what you say holds no water. A Facepunch poll is about as credible as the shit your tryin to push bud. Surely you can find DoJ or FBI numbers to make your case.[/QUOTE] Hey, I'm not the one who said there were a 'lot' of faked cases. Burden of proof is on you. The report I posted, whatever you think of it, supports my argument, and not yours. For the last time: Put up, or shut up. As for the DoJ and FBI reports, you know as well as I do that those statistics are only released for the previous year at the end of the current year. For example, the FBI reported in November 2016 the numbers for 2015. While hate crime had been falling up to 2014, it saw a huge spike in 2015, as you'll see in their report: [url]https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2015[/url]
[QUOTE=archangel125;51892083][URL]https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/The-Gangsters-Of-Ferguson/386893/[/URL] This is a pretty good analysis that goes into the individual cases and talks a little, if not enough, about what the statistics mean. On one hand, the misconduct of the Ferguson courts and police was revenue driven. On the other, the statistics of disproportionately targeting blacks, along with the correspondence and the statements about 'personal responsibility' from Ferguson officials, together constitute damning evidence - the very point I was making. You, too, are making the mistake of ignoring the big picture and choosing to pretend that the entire conclusion was drawn from one piece of the evidence - the very thing I accused Nesto of doing.[/QUOTE] I'll say that it's a lot more complex than you're pretending it is. For example, the stats that show an overrepresentation of blacks to whites in Ferguson are comparable to much of the country, and even less than some police departments like New York City (in which the majority of officers are black). This is the kind of discussion that was left totally out of the report, but would be necessary to make any real conclusions. With that said, this is off topic and will be my last response about Ferguson. [editline]28th February 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=archangel125;51892145]The report I posted, whatever you think of it, supports my argument, and not yours. For the last time:[/QUOTE] But it doesn't. It doesn't support any argument because it's not proof of anything.
[QUOTE=sgman91;51892161]Whether nesto can back up his point is a totally separate issue than whether your SPLC list supports your point.[/QUOTE] Sure it does. It supports my point, even if it doesn't prove it. Mathematically sound proof is not something you're going to find in anything but mathematics, as long as any room remains for doubt. What both of you have repeatedly failed to produce is a legitimate reason to believe that any significant number of these claims are faked. That is the pertinent point in my argument. [QUOTE=archangel125;51892113] Until you can do that, none of what you say holds water.[/QUOTE]
Whether nesto can back up his point is a totally separate issue than whether your SPLC list supports your point. You don't get to throw out stuff and force others to disprove it. That's not how burden of proof works. Why would there be documentation about them being false? Many of them don't have any documentation at all! That's part of the problem. [editline]28th February 2017[/editline] Other people don't need to prove them to be false when they were never proven to be true.
[QUOTE=sgman91;51892161]Whether nesto can back up his point is a totally separate issue than whether your SPLC list supports your point. You don't get to throw out stuff and force others to disprove it. That's not how burden of proof works. Why would there be documentation about them being false? Many of them don't have any documentation at all! That's part of the problem. [editline]28th February 2017[/editline] Other people don't need to prove them to be false when they were never proven to be true.[/QUOTE] I don't know why I have to keep repeating myself to you. I don't want proof that all these claims are false. I want reasonable evidence supporting the assertion that a significant number of these claims are false. And by significant, I mean ten percent or more. [QUOTE=archangel125;51892113] Until you can do that, none of what you say holds water.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=archangel125;51892176]I don't know why I have to keep repeating myself to you. I don't want proof that all these claims are false. I want reasonable evidence supporting the assertion that a significant number of these claims are false. And by significant, I mean ten percent or more.[/QUOTE] I don't know why I have to keep repeating myself to you: I want reasonable evidence that all 1064 are verified (your basic burden of proof) before anyone has to do anything about showing that any of them are false.
[QUOTE=sgman91;51892184]I don't know why I have to keep repeating myself to you: I want reasonable evidence that all 1064 are verified before anyone has to do anything about showing that they're false.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't call that a reasonable request. I am not about to fly to the United States, track down each one of those claimants, and investigate the legitimacy of their claims individually to feed your ego. If you want verified crime statistics, wait for the 2016 hate crime list published by the FBI at the end of this year. My request is perfectly reasonable. I want you to find supporting evidence that makes it appear probable that even ten percent of the reports in there are faked. I'll help you out a bit. Look up previous hate crime statistics. Find out if you can how many were faked, what percentage of them. If, as nesto pretends, faking reports of hate crime is a serious problem, there must be a reputable list out there on the internet. Don't act like a child and demand what you know is impossible. I assert that the SLPC report is just fine as a source. You're the one claiming otherwise, you back up your claim. I don't need to prove a damn, because I never once pretended that all 1064 of those reports are necessarily true. I am, however, saying that the number of false claims will be insignificant - there is no evidence that I know of that contradicts that particular claim. Now. It's nearly 3 AM, and I have to be up early to start work. I'll check back tomorrow and see if you could find *anything* to back up your ridiculous claim, and Nesto's. Remember: You said the SLPC's list was 'total shit'. Fucking prove it. Good luck.
[QUOTE=archangel125;51892204] Fucking prove it. Good luck.[/QUOTE] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/k5KNAzt.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=-nesto-;51892222][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/k5KNAzt.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] Nope. Not proof. It proves that they received reports, and is perfectly honest that not all those reports are verifiable. You need to prove, or at least find evidence supporting the claim, that at least 10 percent were faked. That's 100. Get to work. You know what, I feel bad for you, so let's make it 53. You know, to go with the number I gave you of 532. That's just 5% of the list.
[QUOTE=archangel125;51892204]I wouldn't call that a reasonable request. I am not about to fly to the United States, track down each one of those claimants, and investigate the legitimacy of their claims individually to feed your ego.[/QUOTE] I assume the SPLC already did the work, right? If you can't prove it, then don't make the claim. That's not my problem. Also, I called it "absolute crap," not "total shit." Secondly, my reasoning for doing so is that it's not a verified list with any evidence to back it up.
[QUOTE=sgman91;51892233]I assume the SPLC already did the work, right? If you can't prove it, then don't make the claim. That's not my problem. Also, I called it "absolute crap," not "total shit." Secondly, my reasoning for doing so is that it's not a verified list with any evidence to back it up.[/QUOTE] What, my claim that there were 1064 reported cases of hate crime, and that not many of those were demonstrably false? I knew that you didn't have ground to stand on.
[QUOTE=archangel125;51892238]What, my claim that there were 1064 reported cases of hate crime, and that not many of those were demonstrably false? I knew that you didn't have ground to stand on.[/QUOTE] I think your total inability to fulfill any burden of proof for your claim is clear. So I'll go ahead and bow out at this point. You're welcome to have the last word.
[QUOTE=sgman91;51892245]I think your total failure to provide any burden of proof for your claim is clear. So I'll go ahead and bow out at this point. You're welcome to have the last word.[/QUOTE] What I have already provided is supporting evidence. Now, you've got to find evidence to discredit mine if you wish to dismiss it, evidence that supports your claim that the report is, and allow me to correct my earlier mistake, "absolute crap." You've failed to produce that. And continue to refuse to do so. The best you've come up with is to point out that not all the reports are verified - which I've totally agreed with, and so does not help you at all. The simple fact of the matter, and the basis of my argument, is that there will not be enough falsified hate crime reports to discredit the majority of the list. Buh-bye now. Have yourself a good night. :smile:
[url]https://www.google.com/search?q=nypd+hate+crime+spike[/url] Are you suggesting that someone is on a massive scale faking hate crimes in an insidious reptilian scheme because i wholeheartedly am a lizard
[QUOTE=sgman91;51892245]I think your total inability to fulfill any burden of proof for your claim is clear. So I'll go ahead and bow out at this point. You're welcome to have the last word.[/QUOTE] hahaha what a load of shit archangel's source is taken to with surgical detail (and no counter-evidence from you), but nesto's conjecture based on 6 news articles is given a free pass and when you're taken to task for being a snake, you "bow out" what a joke and what an atrocious post
[url]http://www.sltrib.com/news/2683196-155/reported-hate-crimes-were-done-by[/url] [url]http://denver.cbslocal.com/2015/06/30/suspect-arrested-after-racist-message-discovered-outside-church/[/url] [url]http://www.cotwa.info/2015/10/another-fraternity-is-falsely-accused.html?m=1[/url] [url]http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2015/11/student_charged_in_yik_yak_thr.html[/url] [url]http://newjersey.news12.com/news/kean-university-student-kayla-mckelvey-sentenced-for-sending-threatening-tweets-1.11931222[/url] [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/12/30/suspect-in-houston-mosque-fire-claims-to-have-prayed-there-five-times-a-day-police-say/[/url] [url]http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/East-Palo-Alto-Man-Arrested-for-Falsely-Reporting-Hate-Crime-365063461.html#comments[/url] [url]http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/02/us/new-york-albany-bus-attack/index.html[/url] [url]http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2013/08/the_black_st_peters_prep_student_who_received_racist_text_during_his_run_for_student_council_sent_th.html[/url] [url]http://college.usatoday.com/2016/04/27/black-students-connected-in-su-racist-drawing/[/url] [url]http://www.kcrg.com/content/news/FBI-Assault-near-University-of-Iowa-campus-not-hate-crime-379744061.html[/url] [url]http://www.businessinsider.com/pastor-drops-lawsuit-against-whole-foods-2016-5[/url] [url]https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/nyregion/racism-charges-in-bus-incident-and-their-unraveling-upset-u-of-albany.html[/url] [url]http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/naperville-sun/news/ct-naperville-student-beating-iowa-20160517-story.html[/url] [url]http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/07/20/calum-mcswiggan-summoned-to-court-over-fake-hate-crime-claims/[/url] [url]http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2016/09/29/online-personality-charged-with-felony-vandalism-after-being-accused-of-filing-false-police-report/[/url] [url]http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/05/black-man-arrested-after-pro-trump-racist-graffiti-spree-in-philadelphia.html[/url] [url]http://patch.com/massachusetts/arlington/racist-text-messages-ottoson-fabricated-police[/url] [url]http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=8116&CFID=8047611&CFTOKEN=17889701[/url] [url]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/14/muslim-woman-set-fire-no-bias-other-victims-police[/url] [url]http://www.itv.com/news/central/update/2016-01-08/woman-who-lied-about-being-attacked-for-wearing-a-hijab-fined/[/url] [url]http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/24331/[/url] [url]http://www.ktxs.com/news/abilene/acu-students-and-faculty-wear-white-to-stand-against-racism/12207610[/url] [url]http://6abc.com/politics/man-charged-with-post-election-vandalism-in-south-philly/1634629/[/url] [url]http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/more-mainstream-media-mess-ups-the-muslim-olympian-detained-because-of-president-trumps-travel-ban-was-detained-under-obama/article/2614645#[/url]! [url]http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-vandalizes-truck-blames-black-lives-matter-article-1.2366871[/url] [url]http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_coverage/2016/11/man_admits_to_faking_hate_crime_in_malden[/url] [url]http://www.13abc.com/content/news/BG-police-say-student-lied-about-politically-driven-attack-401814426.html[/url] [url]http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/31355/[/url] [url]http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/north-park-harassment-trump-note-401408916.html[/url] [url]http://www.phillyvoice.com/more-racist-donald-trump-vandalism-found-south-philly/[/url] [url]http://www.phillyvoice.com/police-no-official-report-ugly-racial-incident-del-gas-station/[/url] [url]http://www.philly.com/philly/education/20161203_Villanova_U__ends_probe_into_report_of_post_election_incident.html?mobi=true[/url] [url]http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-fake-hate-crime-arson-20161212-story.html[/url] [url]http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/29937/[/url] [url]http://www.wxyz.com/news/u-m-student-made-up-story-about-man-threatening-to-set-her-hijab-on-fire-police-say[/url] [url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4064080/White-husband-confesses-wife-setting-cars-fire-painting-racial-slur-garage-door-staged-hate-crime.html[/url] [url]http://m.timesunion.com/local/article/Boy-arrested-in-Esperance-swastika-graffiti-spree-10840736.php[/url] [url]http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/01/11/police-cite-student-for-threat-made-at-arundel-high-school/[/url] [url]http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/SDSU-Police-Attack-on-Muslim-Student-Unfounded-410296485.html[/url] [url]http://www.mystateline.com/news/fake-hate-crime-report-at-beloit-college-leads-to-arrest/648472553[/url] [url]http://cuchimes.com/02/2017/campus-police-determine-reported-hate-crimes-fabricated/[/url] [url]http://wtop.com/loudoun-county/2017/02/lawyer-racist-note-loudoun-co-restaurant-bill-fake/[/url] [url]http://www.mndaily.com/article/2016/11/umpd-not-involved-in-handcuffed-university-student[/url] [url]http://www.elonnewsnetwork.com/article/2016/11/note-found-whiteboard-kivette-bye-bye-latinos[/url] [url]http://www.wsaw.com/content/news/Reports-of-racial-vandalism-post-election-at-UWSP-400895111.html[/url] [url]http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/25/taylor-volk-north-park-university-student-fabricat/[/url] [url]http://williamsrecord.com/2016/11/16/two-students-admit-to-vandalizing-griffin-hall-on-saturday/[/url] [url]http://www.toledoblade.com/Police-Fire/2016/11/19/BGSU-Second-report-of-slur-attack-false-too.html[/url] [url]http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=8430[/url] [url]http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/12/19/pro-trump-babson-students-cleared-wellesley-victory-incident/RsIfPd27sNxqiXvnwOrhTJ/story.html[/url] [url]http://www.floppingaces.net/2016/12/21/muslim-hoaxter-burns-delta-airlines-in-self-promotion/[/url] [url]http://abc7ny.com/news/man-charged-after-swastikas-found-at-long-island-college/1666228/[/url] Here's a small list of [B]verified[/B] hoaxes. The JCC bomb threats and graveyard vandalism cases are [B]ongoing[/B] and we have no idea who perpetrated them. It very well could be white supremacists or Trump supporters. It could also be Jews doing it. Or black supremacists doing it. Or Islamists doing it. Or kids/pol.
[QUOTE=-nesto-;51892570] --snipped list-- Here's a small list of [B]verified[/B] hoaxes. The JCC bomb threats and graveyard vandalism cases are [B]ongoing[/B] and we have no idea who perpetrated them. It very well could be white supremacists or Trump supporters. It could also be Jews doing it. Or black supremacists doing it. Or Islamists doing it. Or kids/pol.[/QUOTE] Mate, I clicked only one [URL="http://www.phillyvoice.com/more-racist-donald-trump-vandalism-found-south-philly/"]link[/URL] randomly in your list. Nowhere in that article is there any suggestion that these three incidents were hoaxes. I think the self-victimization people have been subjecting themselves to is pretty fucking retarded, but if you're going to hand-wring over false reports you better not post shit in error yourself. Maybe the rest of your articles are legit, but am I now supposed to hold your stack of evidence to the same standards you've been trying to hold other people's evidence to? You're looking at a failure rate of ~2% yourself with your list after [I]one click[/I]. Incidents are at least up for Nov 2015 based on the FBI report, and the SLPC data at least weakly suggests that trend is continuing. It might be easy to ignore and discount this shit if you don't have any connection with the people actually getting threatened and harassed. [URL="http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2017/02/27/bomb-threat-closes-jewish-community-center-indianapolis/98475346/"]Indy's JCC[/URL] was one of the 11 threatened. I used to fence there as a kid. It's a community center utilized by more than jews. The White House ought to be looking for ways to calm people down and heal the divide instead of trying to point fingers.
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