Arizona at it again: New bill requires hospitals to check immigration status of uninsured patients - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39395651]explain to me how an influx of immigrants is any different from an influx of children being born in a country[/QUOTE] It's impossible to increase the percentage population through births at the rates immigration could. Your basically asking why do we allow citizens to have children when we don't allow unlimited immigration.

Immigration is fine and I support it. Open bordered immigration where you just try to come into a country and have nothing to offer, is a different thing though. Everyone has their place and if you want to become a resident of a country, you should expect to have a skill that needs to be demanded. Do you often see people who complain about Asian or Indian immigrants who fill technical and other positions requiring degrees?

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39395631]im sorry this is an issue with illegal immigration how? i literally have no fucking clue what you're trying to say lmao [/QUOTE] dude are you retarded

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;39395679]Because Children aren't instantly independent and try to get in on [B]opportunistic that they aren't prepared for, or qualified to obtain[/B].[/QUOTE] the fuck are you on about? they aren't prepared or qualified to do whatever job they can find and are willing to do? and no children aren't instantly a part of the workforce but either way they result in a population increase and an increased workforce at some point in time, their aging is completely irrelevant. there are no restrictions on how many children a person can have in america so if a few million kids are born one year, in a few years those kids will all enter the workforce at the same time creating the same effect as a large influx of immigrants

And I'm kind of laughing at how you don't see the difference between immigration vs birth rates. What's the difference between a singular birth, or whatever fucking amount comes out of a women, and a family crossing over, then reproducing? [editline]28th January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Kopimi;39395716]the fuck are you on about? they aren't prepared or qualified to do whatever job they can find and are willing to do? and no children aren't instantly a part of the workforce but either way they result in a population increase and an increased workforce at some point in time, their aging is completely irrelevant. there are no restrictions on how many children a person can have in america so if a few million kids are born one year, in a few years those kids will all enter the workforce at the same time creating the same effect as a large influx of immigrants[/QUOTE] Language is an important skill.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;39395706]dude are you retarded[/QUOTE] no im just not good at deciphering cryptic arguments from someone who seems to repeatedly join arguments they don't even disagree about just for the sake of arguing [editline]29th January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Paul McCartney;39395718]And I'm kind of laughing at how you don't see the difference between immigration vs birth rates. What's the difference between a singular birth, or whatever fucking amount comes out of a women, and a family crossing over, then reproducing? [editline]28th January 2013[/editline] Language is an important skill.[/QUOTE] ok

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39395722]no im just not good at deciphering cryptic arguments from someone who seems to repeatedly join arguments they don't even disagree about just for the sake of arguing [editline]29th January 2013[/editline] ok[/QUOTE] they're pretty simple and obvious arguments tbhi don't really see how someone can not understand

[QUOTE=Eltro102;39395734]they're pretty simple and obvious arguments tbhi don't really see how someone can not understand[/QUOTE] [quote]you seem to live in a deluded world view where "perfect open borders" is not a utopian unobtainable plan where everyone is exactly like you[/quote] ok cool well i dont know what this means soooo

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39395537]ok but saying "thats just how it is" doesn't really do much to explain WHY it is that way why should immigrants be put through the grinder to become american citizens, but you could be the most useless, lazy, unskilled person in the history of america and you're still considered more american than the immigrant just because you were lucky enough to be born there[/QUOTE] being "american" isn't some fucking trophy dude because they're doing it illegally I don't know???

[QUOTE=BldrGyMnGy;39395806]being "american" isn't some fucking trophy dude because they're doing it illegally I don't know???[/QUOTE] ok take a deep breath, count to 10 and try again this time try to say something coherent and meaningful in response to my question as to why some people are more deserving of american citizenship than others

because we want educated voters to improve our government and if someone doesn't know fuck all about our govt system then they won't be educated voters

[QUOTE=Meatpuppet;39395848]because we want educated voters to improve our government and if someone doesn't know fuck all about our govt system then they won't be educated voters[/QUOTE] are you implying all US citizens are educated voters rofl

[QUOTE=Meatpuppet;39395848]because we want educated voters to improve our government and if someone doesn't know fuck all about our govt system then they won't be educated voters[/QUOTE] illegal s aren't exactly gonna vote

[QUOTE=Meatpuppet;39395848]because we want educated voters to improve our government and if someone doesn't know fuck all about our govt system then they won't be educated voters[/QUOTE] you are aware illegal immigrants can't vote, right?

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39395854]are you implying all US citizens are educated voters rofl[/QUOTE] being born in america gives you the hereditary US Politics Gene™, which gives you more knowledge of the system over any silly immigrant!

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39395662]60 million people would also need to be fed, clothed, housed, electricity, and of course, all the various consumer products. Result? Industries expand to fill demand. We would see everything expand with a population expansion. Even illegal drug and weapons production would increase. The revenue taken in by the IRS would increase. Loads of other things happen too.[/QUOTE] This is standard boilerplate argument for unrestricted immigration. It is also entirely correct/ read about the westward expansion for proofs.....however The negative effects would be immediate and far reaching while the positive effects would take generations to outweigh the negatives. Immigrants of this westward expansion didn't live nice, comfortable lives. Many were essentially expendable workhorses. It's not exactly a shining example of something we should repeat. America then didn't have social programs we do today. America today doesn't have the "unrealized potential" of way back then (as in most of the country was unsettled) At the very least you have to take these two things into account.

[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;39395887]This is standard boilerplate argument for unrestricted immigration. It is also entirely correct/ read about the westward expansion for proofs.....however The negative effects would be immediate and far reaching while the positive effects would take generations to outweigh the negatives. Immigrants of this westward expansion didn't live nice, comfortable lives. Many were essentially expendable workhorses. It's not exactly a shining example of something we should repeat. America then didn't have social programs we do today. America today doesn't have the "unrealized potential" of way back then (as in most of the country was unsettled) At the very least you have to take these two things into account.[/QUOTE] all you did was bring up extremely general points about how immigrants lives won't be easy, that's not really "taking them into account"

[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;39395887]This is standard boilerplate argument for unrestricted immigration. It is also entirely correct/ read about the westward expansion for proofs.....however The negative effects would be immediate and far reaching while the positive effects would take generations to outweigh the negatives. Immigrants of this westward expansion didn't live nice, comfortable lives. Many were essentially expendable workhorses. It's not exactly a shining example of something we should repeat. America then didn't have social programs we do today. America today doesn't have the "unrealized potential" of way back then (as in most of the country was unsettled) At the very least you have to take these two things into account.[/QUOTE] And immigration doesn't happen all at once. If American became a dump, the illegal immigrants would be the first people out of the country.

[QUOTE=Bobie;39395871]being born in america gives you the hereditary US Politics Gene™, which gives you more knowledge of the system over any silly immigrant![/QUOTE] Maybe it's the fact that people go through an education system. [editline]28th January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;39395916]And immigration doesn't happen all at once. If American became a dump, the illegal immigrants would be the first people out of the country.[/QUOTE] I disagree. Say what you want. Northern Mexico is still worse then most places in Africa.

eltro102, btw they don't really crack down on expired visas someones i know has been on an expired student visa for like 20 years

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39395916]And immigration doesn't happen all at once. If American became a dump, the illegal immigrants would be the first people out of the country.[/QUOTE] Worst case scenario of yours is "if America does go down the drain we would all (illegally) immigrate elsewhere"? Well I'm sold- I for one won't mind the crushing negative effects now that I know there's greener grass elsewhere.

The way I see it. You're in a country and living with the benefits, you should pay your taxes like everyone else. Illegal immigrants don't exist in the system and therefore pay less taxes, or none at all, aside from just the things taken out of their checks.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39395896]all you did was bring up extremely general points about how immigrants lives won't be easy, that's not really "taking them into account"[/QUOTE] You misread - in this case it means sobotniks argument must account for these. Unless you want me to argue both sides, which I'm willing to do but it will get confusing.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39395475]why don't we deport unskilled laborers that are american citizens, if the issue is about our need for a strong workforce?[/QUOTE] Deport them to where? America?

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;39396019]The way I see it. You're in a country and living with the benefits, you should pay your taxes like everyone else. Illegal immigrants don't exist in the system and therefore pay less taxes, or none at all, aside from just the things taken out of their checks.[/QUOTE] and the reason they don't exist in the system is because the immigration process is too exclusive/expensive/time consuming. if you were to make it easier they WOULD be paying taxes and contributing to the system [editline]29th January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=T553412;39396089]Deport them to where? America?[/QUOTE] it wasn't a serious question..

[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;39395990]Worst case scenario of yours is "if America does go down the drain we would all (illegally) immigrate elsewhere"? Well I'm sold- I for one won't mind the crushing negative effects now that I know there's greener grass elsewhere.[/QUOTE] no i'm saying that immigrants would stop coming if america became a dump for some reason, immigrants have been going into the country for the past 237 years and it hasn't collapsed yet

Here is a paper from the Center for Risk and Economic Analysis of Terrorism Events that asserts that "legalization of low-skilled immigrant workers would yield significant income gains for American workers and households". [URL="http://research.create.usc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1054&context=nonpublished_reports&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fstart%3D10%26q%3Dbenefits%2Bof%2Billegal%2Bimmigration%26hl%3Den%26as_sdt%3D0%2C44%26as_ylo%3D2009#search="]http://research.create.usc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1054&context=nonpublished_reports&sei-redir=1[/URL] It is an interesting paper that basically says that a much less restrictive immigration policy would help out the country significantly.

[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;39396019]The way I see it. You're in a country and living with the benefits, you should pay your taxes like everyone else. Illegal immigrants don't exist in the system and therefore pay less taxes, or none at all, aside from just the things taken out of their checks.[/QUOTE] Presumably sales tax and payroll tax automatically deducted from any job you have (although illegal immigrants may have this done differently) don't exist?

I love immigrants. Both of my grandmothers immigrated here legally, one from Mexico and the other from Germany. I think we should try our hardest to preserve the lives of people who are in danger of losing them, like victims of traumatic injuries, regardless of whether or not they can pay for it. That's why this is a confederation of people and states, not just a mass of individuals working for themselves. If it was, we'd all have fucked ourselves over at some point and died like neanderthals. That being said, in our current situation we simply can't support massive influxes of immigrants. Everything has a balance; infants are born but elders die. Large and unprecedented amounts of people entering the system, legally or otherwise, would upset that balance. That was is why immigration laws are so strict and exclusive. Maybe its true that they are a bit too exclusive, but that doesn't change the fact that they're necessary in some form. It's not like we're all over here saying "damn those Mexicans, we hate them so they shouldn't be allowed to be here!" (although some Arizonans might be saying that.) We just want America to be as great as it can possibly be, and that means that some people get to come in and some people don't. Maybe I'm just talking out my ass, but it makes some sense to me. [editline]28th January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Megafan;39396249]Presumably sales tax and payroll tax automatically deducted from any job you have (although illegal immigrants may have this done differently) don't exist?[/QUOTE] If I understand you right, I think that actually exists in the form of a W2, if you're familiar with work/tax forms. Strictly speaking I'm not, though, so I could be wrong.

[QUOTE=Most wanteD;39396290]If I understand you right, I think that actually exists in the form of a W2, if you're familiar with work/tax forms. Strictly speaking I'm not, though, so I could be wrong.[/QUOTE] I'm familiar with them to a pretty normal extent, although I'm not sure exactly how it works if you are an illegal immigrant working under the radar, so to speak.