Arizona at it again: New bill requires hospitals to check immigration status of uninsured patients - Polidicks

My whole thing on illegal immigration is that the process and immigration laws are set up for a reason, and while I may disagree with the way it is set up, that doesn't mean you don't adhere to it. While it may be an extreme example, but that's like saying, "oh there is this cool car, but the law says I can't steal it. Fuck it, I'll do it anyway". If Arizona passes this bill, it's because the people wanted it to pass. If I was trying to immigrate illegally, I would stay the fuck away from Arizona.

[QUOTE=Megafan;39396249]Presumably sales tax and payroll tax automatically deducted from any job you have (although illegal immigrants may have this done differently) don't exist?[/QUOTE] Sales tax is (usually with few exceptions) done at the point of sale- so illegal immigrants would pay this. Federal, state, local, various ss taxes are (again usually) deducted from a paycheck. Technically an illegal immigrant will never pay these because as an illegal they lack a social security card (or other form of legal visa). Realistically some percentage of illegal would pay these because they use a counterfeit card. A good percentage wouldn't pay as they typically work "under the table"/ meaning paid in cash, no benefits of labor law.

[QUOTE=italics560;39396379]My whole thing on illegal immigration is that the process and immigration laws are set up for a reason, and while I may disagree with the way it is set up, that doesn't mean you don't adhere to it. While it may be an extreme example, but that's like saying, "oh there is this cool car, but the law says I can't steal it. Fuck it, I'll do it anyway". If Arizona passes this bill, it's because the people wanted it to pass. If I was trying to immigrate illegally, I would stay the fuck away from Arizona.[/QUOTE] Not really. There's a super majority in their states congress and they can do anything they want, regardless of if the citizens want it or not.

[QUOTE=italics560;39396379]My whole thing on illegal immigration is that the process and immigration laws are set up for a reason, and while I may disagree with the way it is set up, that doesn't mean you don't adhere to it. While it may be an extreme example, but that's like saying, "oh there is this cool car, but the law says I can't steal it. Fuck it, I'll do it anyway". If Arizona passes this bill, it's because the people wanted it to pass. If I was trying to immigrate illegally, I would stay the fuck away from Arizona.[/QUOTE] im in arizona and i dont want this to pass

[QUOTE=italics560;39396379]My whole thing on illegal immigration is that the process and immigration laws are set up for a reason, and while I may disagree with the way it is set up, that doesn't mean you don't adhere to it. While it may be an extreme example, but that's like saying, "oh there is this cool car, but the law says I can't steal it. Fuck it, I'll do it anyway". If Arizona passes this bill, it's because the people wanted it to pass. If I was trying to immigrate illegally, I would stay the fuck away from Arizona.[/QUOTE] In all honesty all this bill will do will discourage illegal immigrants from seeking help when they are hurt, and harass legal people who are of minority. It isn't going to do anything helpful.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39395136]ye but who cares about illegal immigrants why is it even an issue. why go out of your way to send someone away from the country just because they entered "illegally"[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal[/url] why go out of your way to send criminals into prison for breaking the law I mean its not like doing anything illegal is bad, right? :downs: I mean, damn, I get you, immigrants made the USA THE USA, I agree with immigration myself, but, come on, this is just a weak argument. that being said, I agree with you that this shouldn't pass.

[QUOTE=J!NX;39396814][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal[/url] why go out of your way to send criminals into prison for breaking the law I mean its not like doing anything illegal is bad, right? :downs: I mean, damn, I get you, immigrants made the USA THE USA, I agree with immigration myself, but, come on, this is just a weak argument. that being said, I agree with you that this shouldn't pass.[/QUOTE] the point was not "why do we enforce laws" its "why should illegal immigration be met with deportation instead of assistance through the citizenship process"

The USA needs a new Federal law saying that no state can check anyone's immigration status without Federal permission. All Arizona stories will cease.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39395662]60 million people would also need to be fed, clothed, housed, electricity, and of course, all the various consumer products. Result? Industries expand to fill demand. We would see everything expand with a population expansion. Even illegal drug and weapons production would increase. The revenue taken in by the IRS would increase. Loads of other things happen too.[/QUOTE] Industries expand to fill demand? Clearly you don't live in the state I do where literally all the industry left. The jobs left. People want educated workers more than they want uneducated laborers, unless its a strictly labor-intensive job like construction, lawn care, etc. People don't just open up places of employment because there are people who don't have jobs there. That's not how it works, and if it did we'd see cities like where I live, with a thriving job market and industry. Having more people around doesn't garuntee a good economy, just like having more money printed doesn't either. In fact it can lead to inflation, especailly as 60 million people without jobs being added to a country will create a MASSIVE poor-class that never gets addressed, which means they are expensive to pay for tax/medical/welfare wise and we essentually create a massive deficit. China is a huge indicator that over-population doesn't equal success. Oh sure they are an economic superpower, but only in exports. They have little consumer impact themselves on the international markets beyond "port cities" like Hong Kong, the country is basically on a huge drive to aquire as much energy and food as possible to handle their population load, the quality of life is on average abysmal, etc. To assume that having 60million people show up will just mean new jobs and industry pop up to accomodate 60 million people, and that the economy will be boosted for everyone because there are more people, is extremely naieve. Illegal immigration -is- a problem. Should we treat the immigrants like trash and like criminals? No. But it is a problem, and to ignore it pretending like it has no negative impact on our industry, economy, and job market (it does) is a one way street to fucking over everybody. The real issue is that we need to work hard to make these illegal immigrants actually legal. Make it much easier to be an immigrant (i.e. don't fucking have to fill out history questionarres or anything like that) so we don't encourage everyone who immigrates to do so illegally. Make it so they can effectively adapt themselves to our society rather than being alienated and increasing the likelyhood of the immigrants joining gangs or turning to crime. Give incentives for immigrants to become citizens. Etc. Those are the types of things that will help. Open borders will not. Killing all immigrants on sight will not. Discrimination will not. Ignoring illegal immigration will not.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39396827]ughh stop postinggg the point was not "why do we enforce laws" its "why should illegal immigration be met with deportation instead of assistance through the citizenship process"[/QUOTE] Because they [B]GOT IN ILLEGALLY[/B] how hard is it to see "illegal". They didn't get a green card etc [url]http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/applying-for-us-citizenship-naturalization-30218.html[/url]

[QUOTE=J!NX;39396870]Because they [B]GOT IN ILLEGALLY[/B] how hard is it to see "illegal". They didn't get a green card etc [url]http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/applying-for-us-citizenship-naturalization-30218.html[/url][/QUOTE] i know making posts that don't involve stupid jokes or image macros is really tough for you but try to follow me here the question is why should illegal immigration be ILLEGAL, why it should be met with deportation instead of assistance through the citizenship process. "because its illegal" doesn't answer that question. please, please just try as hard as you can to form a coherent thought and answer this question or don't bother replying because nobody, including me, is interested in hearing you say "because its illegal" again and again

[QUOTE=J!NX;39396870]Because they [B]GOT IN ILLEGALLY[/B] how hard is it to see "illegal". They didn't get a green card etc [URL]http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/applying-for-us-citizenship-naturalization-30218.html[/URL][/QUOTE] Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it is wrong. The immigration laws are too restrictive and actually inhibit the United States, as the paper I linked earlier showed. We all understand that it is currently illegal, what is being said is that the fact that is illegal is wrong.

It's illegal because the colored folk offend my white privilege

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39396895]i know making posts that don't involve stupid jokes or image macros is really tough for you but try to follow me here the question is why should illegal immigration be ILLEGAL, why it should be met with deportation instead of assistance through the citizenship process. "because its illegal" doesn't answer that question. please, please just try as hard as you can to form a coherent thought and answer this question or don't bother replying because nobody, including me, is interested in hearing you say "because its illegal" again and again[/QUOTE] Essentially that would be rewarding them for bad behaviour. We do not imprison them, it's kinda like a board game where we send them back to start and make them role again. If they try the legal route, then all is forgiven. I agree immigration laws need reworking, but just saying, "We don't care you broke the law, here is a gift." seems like rather illogical thing to do.

[QUOTE=Coppermoss;39396935]Essentially that would be rewarding them for bad behaviour. We do not imprison them, it's kinda like a board game where we send them back to start and make them role again. If they try the legal route, then all is forgiven. I agree immigration laws need reworking, but just saying, "We don't care you broke the law, here is a gift." seems like rather illogical thing to do.[/QUOTE] Why is it bad behavior?

[QUOTE=Coppermoss;39396935]Essentially that would be rewarding them for bad behaviour. We do not imprison them, it's kinda like a board game where we send them back to start and make them role again. If they try the legal route, then all is forgiven. I agree immigration laws need reworking, but just saying, "We don't care you broke the law, here is a gift." seems like rather illogical thing to do.[/QUOTE] its not rewarding them for bad behavior its helping someone who is desperate to become an american become an american. they wronged nobody and harmed nobody by breaking the law and its an asinine law in the first place.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39396533]im in arizona and i dont want this to pass[/QUOTE] Because everything revolves around you. Maybe the majority will.

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39396895]i know making posts that don't involve stupid jokes or image macros is really tough for you but try to follow me here the question is why should illegal immigration be ILLEGAL, why it should be met with deportation instead of assistance through the citizenship process. "because its illegal" doesn't answer that question. please, please just try as hard as you can to form a coherent thought and answer this question or don't bother replying because nobody, including me, is interested in hearing you say "because its illegal" again and again[/QUOTE] I've only said it twice and you're acting like I've said it 50 times. Plus, you've already been insulting twice. It's illegal because they didn't go through the citizenship and just decided they'd walk into the country without any say. With just letting any illegal immigrant in you have a heavy chance of getting run away criminals entering the states, that, as well as people who aren't even trying to actually get legal citizenship. Plus, its not like we are banning them from trying legal immigration or arresting/fining them. Yeah, I don't disagree it's pretty shitty and like I said, this law IS shitty but we can't just let every illegal immigrant in. I'm not saying hold down the fort with cannons, just, be lenient, but tough enough. really, all in all its like entering a building, quietly and minding yourself, but you need permission by signing something and registering for a card to enter the building first, and you didn't ask for that permission, or get that card. Ok, fair, you are peaceful, but that's hardly the point. You can't just let everyone trespass without some form of structure to stop them.

[QUOTE=J!NX;39397010]I've only said it twice and you're acting like I've said it 50 times. Plus, you've already been insulting twice. It's illegal because they didn't go through the citizenship and just decided they'd walk into the country without any say. [B]With just letting any illegal immigrant in you have a heavy chance of getting run away criminals entering the states, that, as well as people who aren't even trying to actually get legal citizenship.[/B] Plus, its not like we are banning them from trying legal immigration or arresting/fining them. Yeah, I don't disagree it's pretty shitty and like I said, this law IS shitty but we can't just let every illegal immigrant in. I'm not saying hold down the fort with cannons, just, be lenient, but tough enough.[/QUOTE] Would you please prove that. I ask this because legalizing illegal immigrants would completely destroy the smuggling industry which would reduce the criminal activity associated with immigration.

gee why don't those filthy job-stealing immigrants just come in legally??? [t]http://reason.com/assets/db/07cf533ddb1d06350cf1ddb5942ef5ad.jpg[/t]

[QUOTE=J!NX;39397010]I've only said it twice and you're acting like I've said it 50 times. Plus, you've already been insulting twice. It's illegal because they didn't go through the citizenship and just decided they'd walk into the country without any say. With just letting any illegal immigrant in you have a heavy chance of getting run away criminals entering the states, that, as well as people who aren't even trying to actually get legal citizenship. Plus, its not like we are banning them from trying legal immigration or arresting/fining them. Yeah, I don't disagree it's pretty shitty and like I said, this law IS shitty but we can't just let every illegal immigrant in. I'm not saying hold down the fort with cannons, just, be lenient, but tough enough.[/QUOTE] giving you literally one more chance to reply before i just give up and ignore you "It's illegal because they didn't go through the citizenship and just decided they'd walk into the country without any say" ie its illegal because they broke the law/its illegal there's no stated reason why walking into the country without any say is bad or why it should be illegal, only a reminder that it IS illegal which nobody gives a shit abouttttttttttttt the point here is why can someone not walk in, say "hey lemme fill out those papers and oop here we are im an american thanks"? instead of deporting illegal immigrants on the assumption that they're inherently bad and they've done something wrong, help them become citizens and functioning members of american society. check for warrants if you're so worried about criminals flooding over the border (which they already do because they're already criminals with a motive to enter the country without ID). if someone refuses to become a citizen then yes obviously deport them [editline]29th January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;39397010]really, all in all its like entering a building, quietly and minding yourself, but you need permission by signing something and registering for a card to enter the building first, and you didn't ask for that permission, or get that card. Ok, fair, you are peaceful, but that's hardly the point. You can't just let everyone trespass without some form of structure to stop them.[/QUOTE] and my point is instead of throwing them out of the building take them to the front office and SIGN THEM IN

[QUOTE=Valnar;39397030]Would you please prove that.[/QUOTE] [url]http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-10-18/deportations-criminals-homeland-security/50807532/1[/url] [QUOTE=Valnar;39397030]I ask this because legalizing illegal immigrants would completely destroy the smuggling industry which would reduce the criminal activity associated with immigration.[/QUOTE] I really don't understand what your saying. Would you please prove THAT? wouldn't they just be allowed to smuggle legally then? [QUOTE=Kopimi;39397042]giving you literally one more chance to reply before i just give up and ignore you "It's illegal because they didn't go through the citizenship and just decided they'd walk into the country without any say" ie its illegal because they broke the law/its illegal there's no stated reason why walking into the country without any say is bad or why it should be illegal, only a reminder that it IS illegal which nobody gives a shit abouttttttttttttt the point here is why can someone not walk in, say "hey lemme fill out those papers and oop here we are im an american thanks"? instead of deporting illegal immigrants on the assumption that they're inherently bad and they've done something wrong, help them become citizens and functioning members of american society. check for warrants if you're so worried about criminals flooding over the border (which they already do because they're already criminals with a motive to enter the country without ID). if someone refuses to become a citizen then yes obviously deport them [editline]29th January 2013[/editline] and my point is instead of throwing them out of the building take them to the front office and SIGN THEM IN[/QUOTE] "giving you literally one more chance to reply before i just give up and ignore you" You truly do deserve that title. You might as well be caps locking "HEY MY OPINION IS BETTER THAN YOURS YOUR OPINION IS WROOONNGGGG" "the point here is why can someone not walk in, say "hey lemme fill out those papers and oop here we are im an american thanks"? instead of deporting illegal immigrants on the assumption that they're inherently bad and they've done something wrong, help them become citizens and functioning members of american society. check for warrants if you're so worried about criminals flooding over the border (which they already do because they're already criminals with a motive to enter the country without ID). if someone refuses to become a citizen then yes obviously deport them" [url]http://www.pogueimmigrationlaw.com/removal___deportation[/url] they don't just instantly kick you out and say "lol fuck you XD", they have a process for this. When you are placed in deportation proceedings, [B]you have the right to challenge being removed from the country. [/B]You should never appear for a deportation hearing without an attorney because of the complexity of these hearings and the long term consequences of being deported. At your hearing, the attorney for the Department of Homeland Security presents the case for having you removed from the United States and your attorney argues against this. Much like a criminal trial, each side has the opportunity to evidence in the form of witnesses and documents. After all of the evidence has been presented, each side has the opportunity to make closing arguments about their case to the judge. and, like I said, again, I disagree with this law. I only think illegal immigrants should be deported if they act out/commit crimes/etc. Just removing people because they hated their shitty country is wrong, unless they're actually doing something wrong. On top of that, yes, I do agree they SHOULD give you a chance at the needed paperwork, unless you're committing solid crimes.

[QUOTE=J!NX;39397126]"giving you literally one more chance to reply before i just give up and ignore you" You truly do deserve that title. You might as well be caps locking "HEY MY OPINION IS BETTER THAN YOURS YOUR OPINION IS WROOONNGGGG"[/quote] no its more like saying you're incapable of making a coherent point that doesn't involve simply restating "its illegal" over and over in different wording. [QUOTE=J!NX;39397126]"the point here is why can someone not walk in, say "hey lemme fill out those papers and oop here we are im an american thanks"? instead of deporting illegal immigrants on the assumption that they're inherently bad and they've done something wrong, help them become citizens and functioning members of american society. check for warrants if you're so worried about criminals flooding over the border (which they already do because they're already criminals with a motive to enter the country without ID). if someone refuses to become a citizen then yes obviously deport them" [url]http://www.pogueimmigrationlaw.com/removal___deportation[/url] they don't just instantly kick you out and say "lol fuck you XD", they have a process for this.[/quote] yup and if you had read the link you posted instead of just fervently googling "deportation process" you would realize that "process" just means determining if someone is deportable or not, then deporting them. being in the country illegally is grounds for deportion sooo [QUOTE=J!NX;39397126]When you are placed in deportation proceedings, [B]you have the right to challenge being removed from the country. [/B]You should never appear for a deportation hearing without an attorney because of the complexity of these hearings and the long term consequences of being deported. At your hearing, the attorney for the Department of Homeland Security presents the case for having you removed from the United States and your attorney argues against this. Much like a criminal trial, each side has the opportunity to evidence in the form of witnesses and documents. After all of the evidence has been presented, each side has the opportunity to make closing arguments about their case to the judge.[/quote] and? that means literally nothing. you can challenge your deportation but in the end you'll still be deported. you can challenge a murder charge but if the judge hits the gavel you still go to prison. [QUOTE=J!NX;39397126]and, like I said, again, I disagree with this law. I only think illegal immigrants should be deported if they act out/commit crimes/etc.[/QUOTE] cool so you're just arguing to argue

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;39397041]gee why don't those filthy job-stealing immigrants just come in legally??? [t]http://reason.com/assets/db/07cf533ddb1d06350cf1ddb5942ef5ad.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] it sounds as though it would be literally easier for me to just fly to canada and go over the border and steal some dead guys social security number

[QUOTE=J!NX;39397126][URL]http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-10-18/deportations-criminals-homeland-security/50807532/1[/URL] [/QUOTE] What exactly does that prove? Yes of course some illegal immigrants will be criminal, but how does that show that there is an disproportionally large amount of illegal immigrants are criminals, and if there is a disproportion could it be explained through some other reason such as poverty? [Quote] "giving you literally one more chance to reply before i just give up and ignore you" You truly do deserve that title. You might as well be caps locking "HEY MY OPINION IS BETTER THAN YOURS YOUR OPINION IS WROOONNGGGG" "the point here is why can someone not walk in, say "hey lemme fill out those papers and oop here we are im an american thanks"? instead of deporting illegal immigrants on the assumption that they're inherently bad and they've done something wrong, help them become citizens and functioning members of american society. check for warrants if you're so worried about criminals flooding over the border (which they already do because they're already criminals with a motive to enter the country without ID). if someone refuses to become a citizen then yes obviously deport them" [URL]http://www.pogueimmigrationlaw.com/removal___deportation[/URL] they don't just instantly kick you out and say "lol fuck you XD", they have a process for this. When you are placed in deportation proceedings, [B]you have the right to challenge being removed from the country. [/B]You should never appear for a deportation hearing without an attorney because of the complexity of these hearings and the long term consequences of being deported. At your hearing, the attorney for the Department of Homeland Security presents the case for having you removed from the United States and your attorney argues against this. Much like a criminal trial, each side has the opportunity to evidence in the form of witnesses and documents. After all of the evidence has been presented, each side has the opportunity to make closing arguments about their case to the judge. and, like I said, again, I disagree with this law. I only think illegal immigrants should be deported if they act out/commit crimes/etc.[/Quote] You are missing the point of what he is saying. Why should what is currently classified as illegal immigration be illegal?

[QUOTE=Valnar;39397193]What exactly does that prove? Yes of course some illegal immigrants will be criminal, but how does that show that there is an disproportionaly large amount of illegal immigrants are criminals? You are missing the point of what he is saying. Why should what is currently classified as illegal immigration be illegal?[/QUOTE] because theyre breaking the law! duh!!

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39397167]no its more like saying you're incapable of making a coherent point that doesn't involve simply restating "its illegal" over and over in different wording. [B]really because being incoherent is common with you[/B] yup and if you had read the link you posted instead of just fervently googling "deportation process" you would realize that "process" just means determining if someone is deportable or not, then deporting them. being in the country illegally is grounds for deportion sooo [B]Fair enough, then.[/B] and? that means literally nothing. you can challenge your deportation but in the end you'll still be deported. you can challenge a murder charge but if the judge hits the gavel you still go to prison. [B]"Innocent until proven guilty"[/B] cool so you're just arguing to argue [B]and you aren't?[/B][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Valnar;39397193]What exactly does that prove? Yes of course some illegal immigrants will be criminal, but how does that show that there is an disproportionally large amount of illegal immigrants are criminals, and if there is a disproportion could it be explained through some other reason such as poverty? You are missing the point of what he is saying. Why should what is currently classified as illegal immigration be illegal?[/QUOTE] As for [I]why [/I]it should be, is because they [I]should [/I]go through a legal process in order to enter, rather than just hopping the border and entering. Obviously they should allow more people to legally enter. But removing the legal process is stupid and removes the fact that they get a fair background check. I don't disagree that legal immigration looks hard, but its there for a reason. Not that I'm saying either of you want to remove the process, if anything we're probably agreeing with each other in a way anyways.

[QUOTE=J!NX;39397259]"Innocent until proven guilty"[/QUOTE] what do you mean by this? the deportee is found guilty as soon as they are within the country without a visa. so, proven guilty

[QUOTE=Kopimi;39395164]yes why are illegal immigrants less deserving of a life in america than a child born to american citizens [editline]28th January 2013[/editline] if anything immigrants work harder to be american than children born in america so the fact that we send people away for not being "real americans" is kinda confusing to me[/QUOTE] You think so? A lot of these "hard working people" get scholarships, free school, etc all the while being here illegally. On top of that they can get free medical care. They pay zero taxes besides sale tax. A lot of these poor immigrants steal SSN's so they can falsely obtain jobs, etc, etc. I can go on and on, not all of them are bad. But it is hardly the sob story your saying. I work a minimum wage job, have to pay bills, pay for school and all this other shit while paying stupid amount of taxes (which just went up...yay). Medical care for basic needs is retarded expensive, and soon to come if I don't get health insurance (which my jobs offers but it is 260 dollars a month without co-pay added in to it) i'll be fined. Not saying there needs to be reform, but it is a bit ridiculous how law abiding citizens who pay taxes get less and illegals get a lot of help just for the sake of being politically correct.

[QUOTE=MR-X;39397301] A lot of these "hard working people" get scholarships, free school, etc all the while being here illegally.[/QUOTE] idk how theyd manage that i have to show my green card anytime i do anything