College Campuses Are Scrambling to Remove Confederate Symbols - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Ownederd;48050035]freedom of speech doesn't imply that hate speech will be protected[/QUOTE] We don't prosecute people for thoughts last I checked. If you go "I believe in Slavery and the Confederacy and hate Balck people" that's free speech. And that's pritected, just like flying a god damn flag, or wearing it on a t- shirt or ruining your truck woth it. If you go and attack African Americans, that's a whole other ball game where you have actually committed a crime. If you tell others to go attack African Americans, or say "I'm going to go shoot up this church filled with African Americans" you are making active threats, and as such have committed a crime.

[QUOTE=Ownederd;48050035]freedom of speech doesn't imply that hate speech will be protected[/QUOTE] If flying the confederate flag is enough to be considered "hate speech" to ban it in your eyes, I'd hate to see what kind of Orwellian dystopia America would become if you were put in power.

[QUOTE=bdd458;48050152]We don't prosecute people for thoughts last I checked. If you go "I believe in Slavery and the Confederacy and hate Balck people" that's free speech. If you go and attack African Americans, that's a whole other ball game where you have actually committed a crime. If you tell others to go attack African Americans, or say "I'm going to go shoot up this church filled with African Americans" you are making active threats, and as such have committed a crime.[/QUOTE] i don't see how my argument is about persecuting people for having thoughts. it's just that strongly backwards opinions won't be protected by people and will be understandably put into question. [QUOTE=Helix Snake;48050165]If flying the confederate flag is enough to be considered "hate speech" to ban it in your eyes, I'd hate to see what kind of Orwellian dystopia America would become if you were put in power.[/QUOTE] what do comparisons to 1984 have to do with anything. are you *trying* to invoke Arken's Law?

[QUOTE=Ownederd;48050185] it's just that strongly backwards opinions won't be protected by people and will be understandably put into question.[/QUOTE] Most people in favor of free speech are quite fine with individuals judging them for what they say and private entities banning them from their establishments for what they say. However it seems to me that you want the government to straight up ban people from expressing certain ideas and using certain symbols. [QUOTE=Ownederd;48047159]it shouldn't be the job of the government to protect hate speech[/QUOTE] In response to somebody saying that public entities should not be allowed to ban certain symbols and the expressing of certain ideas.

i don't believe in explicit government intervention unless if it's absolutely mandatory for a situation like this, so w/e

[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;48047088]Two words: MUH HERITAGE!1!1!11!!111[/QUOTE] Honestly its completely understandable, the conflict wasn't anywhere near as black and white (god damnit) as people make it out to be. A lot of inidividuals who fly that flag are probably descended from men whom fought for the confederacy, it is a very real part of heritage in the south. Hell, my great great grandfather was a confederate senator, and my old as dirt military school actually had cadets who fought and died in the conflict. Part of it IS honoring the those who died fighting for the confederacy. I do not, cannot, and will not ever blame an individual for disliking the flag, or even being offended by its presence, but its complete removal is not proper either.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;48047073]That's a good message to spread. Want to change the world? Shoot up a public area.[/QUOTE] I wonder where it'll stop, though. If I paint the walls of my room red, write my manifesto in red ink, obsessing over the color, and shoot up a place with red crayons in my pockets.... Will the country demand to ban the color red? Will crayola go OH SHIT Change the name of the crayon immediately! National Outrage over these statues and flag didn't even exist, but now all of a sudden everyone cares and is scrambling. I don't know if it's over-sensitivity, white guilt, or if there's just something in the water. But scrambling to remove shit only because some crazy asshole decided to associate himself with it to do an evil deed seems disingenuous

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48048122]Meanwhile the various Axis reenactors who are connected with small town museums will still be able to bring their tanks, banners, signs and uniforms.[/QUOTE] I had a guy who reenactor Waffen SS call me a racist once while he was in his uniform and I was in mine at some historical timeline event. It was bizarre. [editline]25th June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=PolarEventide;48049589]The most disgusting instance of this was when a few years ago Washington and Lee University removed Confederate symbols [b]from General Lee's own crypt[/b]. What purpose does that serve?[/QUOTE] TBH General Lee never wanted those symbols on his crypt. Put them with Stonewall or Longstreet. They probably wouldn't have cared. [editline]25th June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=hexpunK;48048167]Re-enactment is a bit different to flying the flag any other time. One is a historical re-enactment, the other is endorsing the ideals behind a flag. Assuming the re-enactment groups aren't using their re-enactments to say "the south was the best shut up", because that's silly. You're probably fine.[/QUOTE] Probably but never underestimate how stupid and knee-jerky higher education can be.

[QUOTE=Ownederd;48047159]it shouldn't be the job of the government to protect hate speech[/QUOTE] No they should protect all speech, whether or not it's "hate" speech. The whole point of our right to free speech is to protect people in the minority, even if it's racist assholes.

[QUOTE=Ownederd;48047082]this really isn't all that different from the flag of the NSDAP being banned all over germany except for historical or educational reasons. i don't know why people are getting flustered over this being banned[/QUOTE] getting rid of it is cool and all but this is just yet another knee jerk reaction being focused on by businesses and politicians for easy points

[QUOTE=Ownederd;48047082]this really isn't all that different from the flag of the NSDAP being banned all over germany except for historical or educational reasons. i don't know why people are getting flustered over this being banned[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure the Nazi flag is banned everywhere in Germany including for historical or education reasons as well which is silly such as removing it from ww2 games and movies. Yes it's a terrible symbol but why remove it from historical games and movies?

[QUOTE=Tmaxx;48049489]I'm just glad these vitriolic rednecks down here in the south are finally being forced to grow up. Next is forcing them to adopt an accent that doesn't make them sound like autistic down syndrome children.[/QUOTE] *adjusts crotch and spits tobacco*

[QUOTE=proboardslol;48048155]Of terrorism, George Bush gave a speech after 9/11, in which he said I think this fits perfectly not only with islamic terrorism, but home grown racist terrorism in the united states. I think that confederate flags have their place in history; but like other things in history, they belong with the other symbols of totalitarianism: in a museum. Not on the back of your pickup truck[/QUOTE] I live in Canada and I saw a pickup truck with the confederate flag and shook my head.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;48047125]this is the dumbest thing i have ever read that's like saying if we want to pull down any nazi flags and saying "That's a good message to spread. Want to change the world? Kill six million Jews"[/QUOTE] That's not a good example when they took 13000 year old symbol of luck / peace and turned it into one of evil in less than 5. :v: We still scrub out Swastika's wherever we see them, even in products from Asia where it retains it's original meaning.

[QUOTE=Alxnotorious;48047506]Predicted headline a week from now: " Confederacy symbols removed from all history textbooks"[/QUOTE] Well, Oklahoma [I]did[/I] try to get AP History Classes removed from curriculum because it didn't show America in a super positive way.

This just happened last week, we need to back off a little, while understanding that to some groups that flag is offensive and hurtful while understanding the full history of that flag

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;48048045]i can't wrap my head around this this entire thread is hall of fame material two guys says this will encourage mass shooters one guy says this will lead to the confederate flag being wiped from history books and this one has no idea what the concept of a protest is[/QUOTE] Yeah, you're right, there's even this one guy who neither understands the concept of satire or a joke

[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;48051413]No they should protect all speech, whether or not it's "hate" speech. The whole point of our right to free speech is to protect people in the minority, even if it's racist assholes.[/QUOTE] No, there is indeed speech that isn't protected and is prosecutable in certain cases. Hate speech is referred to as such because it's separate and potentially prosecutable. Typically it's whether or not the statement is likely to pose danger to any individual or individuals. Such instances include threats to harm another, or statement's whose intent is to encourage people to harm others, like a person at a rally calling for, or otherwise attempting to incite people to attack a certain group of people. All of this is irrelevant fear mongering, anyway. Public universities are well within their rights to moderate the symbols they display and fly on their campuses. No one is saying we should prosecute people for having Confederate flags, or other Civil War era items. No one is saying that museums should alter their collection, or that reenactments should change. This is just colleges taking down a few Confederate symbols they had, not 1984.

[QUOTE=Maegord;48052629]No, there is indeed speech that isn't protected and is prosecutable in certain cases. Hate speech is referred to as such because it's separate and potentially prosecutable. Typically it's whether or not the statement is likely to pose danger to any individual or individuals. Such instances include threats to harm another, or statement's whose intent is to encourage people to harm others, like a person at a rally calling for, or otherwise attempting to incite people to attack a certain group of people. All of this is irrelevant fear mongering, anyway. Public universities are well within their rights to moderate the symbols they display and fly on their campuses. No one is saying we should prosecute people for having Confederate flags, or other Civil War era items. No one is saying that museums should alter their collection, or that reenactments should change. This is just colleges taking down a few Confederate symbols they had, not 1984.[/QUOTE] Legally in the US there is no "Hate Speech". There's Speech, and then there's intent to actually violate a law like saying to someone's face "I'm going to kill you". Here's an interesting article on it: [url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/07/no-theres-no-hate-speech-exception-to-the-first-amendment/[/url]

[QUOTE=Maegord;48052629]No, there is indeed speech that isn't protected and is prosecutable in certain cases. Hate speech is referred to as such because it's separate and potentially prosecutable. Typically it's whether or not the statement is likely to pose danger to any individual or individuals. Such instances include threats to harm another, or statement's whose intent is to encourage people to harm others, like a person at a rally calling for, or otherwise attempting to incite people to attack a certain group of people.[/QUOTE] Speech is legal unless it is considered an imminent threat to peace, which includes everything from threatening harm to inciting a riot. Hate groups can get away with their speech because they say things like "down with ___" or "there's a race war coming", and not "lets kill ___" or "lets start a race war" which may lead to police investigations and court cases.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;48053047]Speech is legal unless it is considered an imminent threat to peace, which includes everything from threatening harm to inciting a riot. Hate groups can get away with their speech because they say things like "down with ___" or "there's a race war coming", and not "lets kill ___" or "lets start a race war" which may lead to police investigations and court cases.[/QUOTE] i don't think banning that kind of speech would ever have a positive effect, if anything it would cause more commotion than just social and public pressuring

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;48053150]i don't think banning that kind of speech would ever have a positive effect, if anything it would cause more commotion than just social and public pressuring[/QUOTE] Definitely, not to mention then the government gets to decide what people can and can not believe; and that's a road I'd rather the US not go down.

[QUOTE=TheJunction;48050541]Honestly its completely understandable, the conflict wasn't anywhere near as black and white (god damnit) as people make it out to be. A lot of inidividuals who fly that flag are probably descended from men whom fought for the confederacy, it is a very real part of heritage in the south. Hell, my great great grandfather was a confederate senator, and my old as dirt military school actually had cadets who fought and died in the conflict. Part of it IS honoring the those who died fighting for the confederacy. I do not, cannot, and will not ever blame an individual for disliking the flag, or even being offended by its presence, but its complete removal is not proper either.[/QUOTE] I hate the flag and everything it stands for but I will always stand by someone's right to fly it even if I hate their guts. Let the discourse and discussion prove old racists ways to be obsolete, not burying it under a rug like we have in the past.

Would removing the flag from everything change anything? No. So why is it an issue? Selective Outrage at its finest

[QUOTE=luverofJ!93;48047121]Whether or not you believe the flag represents slavery or oppression, it is undeniably a symbol of disunity and the wounds of racism will never be healed until we as a nation can come together and recognize that only United can we move forward and create a country where equality and justice reign, not disunity, conflict and prejudicial hate.[/QUOTE] And banning a flag is going to achieve that?

article: "guys, we are going to remove what many are referring to a symbol of racism out of respect and especially it would be inappropriate after a racism fueled shooting to fly this symbol in a place like chapels" fp: "FUCKING SJW ARE NAZIS AND BANNING THE FLAG, THE GOVERNMENT WILL CRACK DOWN ON FREE SPEECH AND WE CAN'T EVEN SEE THE FLAG IN HISTORY BOOKS"

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;48053863]article: "guys, we are going to remove what many are referring to a symbol of racism out of respect and especially it would be inappropriate after a racism fueled shooting to fly this symbol in a place like chapels" fp: "FUCKING SJW ARE NAZIS AND BANNING THE FLAG, THE GOVERNMENT WILL CRACK DOWN ON FREE SPEECH AND WE CAN'T EVEN SEE THE FLAG IN HISTORY BOOKS"[/QUOTE] please calm down

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;48053863]article: "guys, we are going to remove what many are referring to a symbol of racism out of respect and especially it would be inappropriate after a racism fueled shooting to fly this symbol in a place like chapels" fp: "FUCKING SJW ARE NAZIS AND BANNING THE FLAG, THE GOVERNMENT WILL CRACK DOWN ON FREE SPEECH AND WE CAN'T EVEN SEE THE FLAG IN HISTORY BOOKS"[/QUOTE] Mate they're trying to remove it from historical sites. They aren't doing anything out of respect. It's all about scoring some of that sweet, sweet PR.

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;48053863]article: "guys, we are going to remove what many are referring to a symbol of racism out of respect and especially it would be inappropriate after a racism fueled shooting to fly this symbol in a place like chapels" fp: "FUCKING SJW ARE NAZIS AND BANNING THE FLAG, THE GOVERNMENT WILL CRACK DOWN ON FREE SPEECH AND WE CAN'T EVEN SEE THE FLAG IN HISTORY BOOKS"[/QUOTE] you can phrase literally anything like this, this isn't arguing this is just noise

[QUOTE=Ownederd;48047082]this really isn't all that different from the flag of the NSDAP being banned all over germany except for historical or educational reasons. i don't know why people are getting flustered over this being banned[/QUOTE] This is dramatically and totally different. The Confederate flag removal is being done by companies and institutions in an effort to clean up public appearance. Germany's ban of Nazi paraphernalia is a violation of free speech, and would never fly in the US. Frankly, this whole debacle is a disgusting show of sensationalism. No single isolated incident should swing policy in a country of 320 million people.