College Campuses Are Scrambling to Remove Confederate Symbols - Polidicks

why do we get mad over flags and not that inner city kids rely on underfunded schools to feed them year-round. why are we getting upset that some place is selling a coffee cup with a confederate flag on it when there are people who cannot afford to even finish high school. how come we see mass moral outrage over a statue and not over the fact that a public education in an upper-class neighborhood and the public education in a lower-class neighborhood is incomparable, eapecially if the lower-class school is predominantly black. why is it that we as a nation only seem to get upset at symbols of the problem rather than the problem itself. many people say "yes well that is important as well but" but fucking nothing. you are wasting your outrage on a gesture that will be of little benefit. like, what the fuck? we're not even getting outraged at the actual shit that is causing these problems, the outrage is at some nebulous ideal the flag embodies. you're not going to change anything by just striking the idea out of the public sphere. this shit shouldn't be front and center, the actual issues should. there's a significant part of our population that is pretty much just written off educationally, and we focus our time on whether or not the flag of a dead rebellion means anything. it feels like we're complaining about the ugly drapes while the apocalypse is happening right outside the window. why can't we get outraged at the shit that [b]needs[/b] to be changed before any progress is made? [editline]26th June 2015[/editline] token gestures are being accepted as genuine more and more and it is frustrating me

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;48052526]That's not a good example when they took 13000 year old symbol of luck / peace and turned it into one of evil in less than 5. :v: We still scrub out Swastika's wherever we see them, even in products from Asia where it retains it's original meaning.[/QUOTE] Blatantly untrue when you have Nazi Cafe's in Thailand and factories in China still mass producing Nazi flags and memorabilia. [editline]26th June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Maegord;48052629]No, there is indeed speech that isn't protected and is prosecutable in certain cases. Hate speech is referred to as such because it's separate and potentially prosecutable. Typically it's whether or not the statement is likely to pose danger to any individual or individuals. Such instances include threats to harm another, or statement's whose intent is to encourage people to harm others, like a person at a rally calling for, or otherwise attempting to incite people to attack a certain group of people. All of this is irrelevant fear mongering, anyway. Public universities are well within their rights to moderate the symbols they display and fly on their campuses. No one is saying we should prosecute people for having Confederate flags, or other Civil War era items. No one is saying that museums should alter their collection, or that reenactments should change. This is just colleges taking down a few Confederate symbols they had, not 1984.[/QUOTE] Free speech ends where threats begin, a confederate flag is not a threat and doesn't qualify as one lol. Furthermore, "hate speech" is not necessarily making threats. "I think we should send all the Niggers from this premises back to Africa!" "I think we should kill all Niggers from this premises" Pick the threat out from those 2 very awful sentences. Again, freedom of speech is here to protect people with the minority opinion, and that extends to racist bigoted ass holes, but not violent racist bigoted ass holes. [editline]26th June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;48054767]why do we get mad over flags and not that inner city kids rely on underfunded schools to feed them year-round. why are we getting upset that some place is selling a coffee cup with a confederate flag on it when there are people who cannot afford to even finish high school. how come we see mass moral outrage over a statue and not over the fact that a public education in an upper-class neighborhood and the public education in a lower-class neighborhood is incomparable, eapecially if the lower-class school is predominantly black. why is it that we as a nation only seem to get upset at symbols of the problem rather than the problem itself. many people say "yes well that is important as well but" but fucking nothing. you are wasting your outrage on a gesture that will be of little benefit. like, what the fuck? we're not even getting outraged at the actual shit that is causing these problems, the outrage is at some nebulous ideal the flag embodies. you're not going to change anything by just striking the idea out of the public sphere. this shit shouldn't be front and center, the actual issues should. there's a significant part of our population that is pretty much just written off educationally, and we focus our time on whether or not the flag of a dead rebellion means anything. it feels like we're complaining about the ugly drapes while the apocalypse is happening right outside the window. why can't we get outraged at the shit that [b]needs[/b] to be changed before any progress is made? [editline]26th June 2015[/editline] token gestures are being accepted as genuine more and more and it is frustrating me[/QUOTE] It's easier to invoke aesthetic change rather than actual change. Welcome to politics son.

[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;48054870]It's easier to invoke aesthetic change rather than actual change. Welcome to politics son.[/QUOTE] thanks, dad i just wish that we could get in the nitty gritty and actuallly do shit

"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." Vice President Alexander Stephens, Confederate States of America. Your heritage. Why all the fuss. The first amendment has not been revoked last time I checked. All I see is private company's engaging in capitalism and choosing what they will and will not sell. Should they be forced to sell them against their will?

[QUOTE=Mudbone;48055004]"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." Vice President Alexander Stephens, Confederate States of America. Your heritage. Why all the fuss. The first amendment has not been revoked last time I checked. All I see is private company's engaging in capitalism and choosing what they will and will not sell. Should they be forced to sell them against their will?[/QUOTE] It would be retarded to pretend that any other flag is representative of a morally clean country. Countless other countries have contributed to horrific events and we don't pretend that it's the only part of their heritage. I don't see anybody here saying that whoever flies the US flag supports torture because its government has perpetrated it. Likewise, to say that anybody who uses that flag agrees with ideals that are irrelevant since almost two centuries is stupid. The white of the French flag is supposed to represent the French monarchy, that doesn't make people who fly it royalists. To assume one's intent based on the symbolism they bear in spite of their actual behaviour is childish.

Why doesn't people feeling pride for the south instead fly the Bonnie Blue Flag? The only political connotations it has to my knowledge is increased autonomous rights for the south. [thumb]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Bonnieblue.svg/500px-Bonnieblue.svg.png[/thumb]

Could someone please explain why this is happening? I fear i missed a key piece of information.

[QUOTE=_Axel;48055695]It would be retarded to pretend that any other flag is representative of a morally clean country. Countless other countries have contributed to horrific events and we don't pretend that it's the only part of their heritage. I don't see anybody here saying that whoever flies the US flag supports torture because its government has perpetrated it. Likewise, to say that anybody who uses that flag agrees with ideals that are irrelevant since almost two centuries is stupid. The white of the French flag is supposed to represent the French monarchy, that doesn't make people who fly it royalists. To assume one's intent based on the symbolism they bear in spite of their actual behaviour is childish.[/QUOTE] Except other countries have long histories with tons of different events. Here's a list of events in CSA history: -CSA founded on the basis of keeping slavery alive -CSA fights a war on the basis of keeping slavery alive -CSA gets dissolved due to losing aforementioned slavery-inspired war If you fly an American flag today, it probably means you support most of America's current efforts, such as in the Middle East. It doesn't mean you probably support the subjugation of Native Americans and other such historical events, since the US has moved on as a country. The CSA never moved on from the issue of supporting slavery.

[QUOTE=Last or First;48056120]Except other countries have long histories with tons of different events. Here's a list of events in CSA history: -CSA founded on the basis of keeping slavery alive -CSA fights a war on the basis of keeping slavery alive -CSA gets dissolved due to losing aforementioned slavery-inspired war If you fly an American flag today, it probably means you support most of America's current efforts, such as in the Middle East. It doesn't mean you probably support the subjugation of Native Americans and other such historical events, since the US has moved on as a country. The CSA never moved on from the issue of supporting slavery.[/QUOTE] And yet to reduce that entity to those events is foolish. Some people fought for it without supporting those ideals, they merely thought the north was being imperialistic in the way they wanted to get their way through force. A lot of people use this flag because to them it represents independence and rebellion. Shit, maybe some people just like its design. You say that the American flag doesn't carry the negative connotations of the past (ignoring my example about torture which is still a legitimate concern to this day) because it has since moved on. But how can the symbolism around the confederate flag move on if people like you keep insisting on its meaning despite the intentions of those who sport it? Symbols and their meaning can change overtime, perhaps people can turn the confederate flag from something with racist connotations into something more modern and positive. But that's not going to happen if people like you keep on insisting it's a hateful symbol and making it keep its taboo status. [editline]26th June 2015[/editline] You people seem to consider that a symbol, such as the St George cross, can be sullied when bigots use it to promote their ideals. Why can't it work the other way around? Can't a symbol that's been used to support a hateful cause be reclaimed into something more positive?

What if people are just big fans of the Dukes of Hazard?

[QUOTE=_Axel;48056328]And yet to reduce that entity to those events is foolish. Some people fought for it without supporting those ideals, they merely thought the north was being imperialistic in the way they wanted to get their way through force. A lot of people use this flag because to them it represents independence and rebellion. Shit, maybe some people just like its design. You say that the American flag doesn't carry the negative connotations of the past (ignoring my example about torture which is still a legitimate concern to this day) because it has since moved on. But how can the symbolism around the confederate flag move on if people like you keep insisting on its meaning despite the intentions of those who sport it? Symbols and their meaning can change overtime, perhaps people can turn the confederate flag from something with racist connotations into something more modern and positive. But that's not going to happen if people like you keep on insisting it's a hateful symbol and making it keep its taboo status. [editline]26th June 2015[/editline] You people seem to consider that a symbol, such as the St George cross, can be sullied when bigots use it to promote their ideals. Why can't it work the other way around? Can't a symbol that's been used to support a hateful cause be reclaimed into something more positive?[/QUOTE] Sure, some people fighting for the CSA didn't like slavery. And some people fighting for Nazis didn't like the termination of Jews. Does that mean the Nazi flag doesn't represent the termination of Jews, but rather "Germans coming together to fight the unfair punishments of losing WWI"? The point isn't "some people fighting for the country don't support everything it does", the point is [I]what the country itself[/I] does. When a country has a lot of stuff going on, there's a lot of different things to support. By flying that country's flag, it's implied you support the majority of, most recent, and most important actions that country takes and beliefs it espouses. If someone is flying the American flag today, then yeah, you could probably ask them about the torture ordeal. They could turn around and say "no, I dislike that, but I like the Bill of Rights, the economy, our culture, etc." But asking them "do you support the Trail of Tears" would be ridiculous, as the country has done so much since then. (This point and the one in my last post are also somewhat about your French flag point, I should've clarified.) On the other hand, the CSA barely has any history outside of the civil war. It was founded on "We're the US, but with slavery", and the only actions it's taken have been in defense of slavery. Someone can't logically say "I support the [I]other[/I] things", because there ARE no other things. "State rights!" Well, those state rights were specifically for slavery. "The northern states weren't cooperating with us!" They weren't cooperating with slavery. "The north is being aggressive to us, and the south needs to band together!" Being aggressive against slavery. Banding together to protect slavery. It's not like the flag in question is a simple symbol, either. Sure, it's not too complicated, but it's not as simple as a swastika or a thin red +. Its ONLY use has been for the CSA or to refer to the CSA. And with the St George cross, that was just [I]part[/I] of England's government using it for nationalism, not the entire government. The government barely uses it for nationalism anymore, it's mostly non-government agencies. So now you have to look at other things when someone is waving the St George cross. Are they holding a sign saying "Go back"? Nationalist. Holding a sign saying "Go team"? Probably just happy about sports.

[QUOTE=Black;48055764]Why doesn't people feeling pride for the south instead fly the Bonnie Blue Flag? The only political connotations it has to my knowledge is increased autonomous rights for the south. [thumb]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Bonnieblue.svg/500px-Bonnieblue.svg.png[/thumb][/QUOTE] I'm not Somalian bro.

My great great great grandpa fought in the civil war, he fought for the Union. So you're telling me if he had fought for the Confederacy, I am not allowed to celebrate the honor and dedication to his allegiance and his beliefs because some completely unrelated dude (for the war) from almost two centuries in the future shot up a church? I am allowed to wave the Union flag because that is the side that won? Enemies are relevant, but I guess people living in 2015 thinks we are in 1861.

[QUOTE=Lanopo;48056897]My great great great grandpa fought in the civil war, he fought for the Union. So you're telling me if he had fought for the Confederacy, I am not allowed to celebrate the honor and dedication to his allegiance and his beliefs because some completely unrelated dude (for the war) from almost two centuries in the future shot up a church? I am allowed to wave the Union flag because that is the side that won? Enemies are relevant, but I guess people living in 2015 thinks we are in 1861.[/QUOTE] Man the amount of times I've read treasonous scum in the past week or two has really been like time traveling.

[QUOTE=Last or First;48056812]And with the St George cross, that was just [I]part[/I] of England's government using it for nationalism, not the entire government. The government barely uses it for nationalism anymore, it's mostly non-government agencies. So now you have to look at other things when someone is waving the St George cross. Are they holding a sign saying "Go back"? Nationalist. Holding a sign saying "Go team"? Probably just happy about sports.[/QUOTE] So with the St Georges cross you give people who use it the benefit of the doubt, but with the CSA flag you directly assume they're horrible racists even though it's often used for other purposes than KKK meetings? You didn't answer my question, by the way. If people using certain symbols can turn those into ambassadors for hatred, what's to stop people from doing the exact opposite other than psychorigid people refusing to see them any other way?

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;48054900]thanks, dad i just wish that we could get in the nitty gritty and actuallly do shit[/QUOTE] Short of forcing everyone in congress out for a day and passing legislation that makes lobbying illegal and restructure the punishments for congressmen found in violation of rules and laws, you can't fix shit on your own.