What change? Obama personally signs PATRIOT ACT extension. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=N0 WAR;30091752]Oh look, another idiot who thinks that lack of freedom in every regard is fascism.[/QUOTE] when you put it like that it does sound kinda like fascism

[QUOTE=Lambeth;30092014]when you put it like that it does sound kinda like fascism[/QUOTE] He doesn't mean a lack of freedom entirely, he means a lack of freedom in a few specific instances, which of course is nowhere near fascism. People throw words like that around to incite a reaction, although being outspoken doesn't make you correct.

"Herp derp state sponsored facism. Big Brother Herp Herp" It's not like the Government spies on you, unless they have reason to suspect you as a terrorist than the Patriot Act will never effect you. The Patriot Act was basically just a Law Enforcement wish list anyway.

[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;30092205]It's not like the Government spies on you, unless they have reason to suspect you as a terrorist than the Patriot Act will never effect you. The Patriot Act was basically just a Law Enforcement wish list anyway.[/QUOTE] I don't want the government to even have the ability to spy on me without warrant.

[QUOTE=Pepin;30092834]I don't want the government to even have the ability to spy on me without warrant.[/QUOTE] Because they're soooo good at keeping it under wraps.

[QUOTE=LunchboxOfDoom;30088351] Are you seriously trying to suggest that the United States government and the Bush Adminstration were directly responsible for 9/11? That's what I gather from your little bit about "Hint: No it's not because a group of brown people hate amerikay and their way of life". Good god man your head is up in the clouds. This is going up on FSTDT. So certain of your "brilliance"? Hilarious, given that this remark is coming from someone who apparently buys into the whole "9/11 WAS DONE BY THE GUVMENT" conspiracy...[/QUOTE] Well good job I believe you missed the entire point of what Jaeger monster has just said. At any rate I'd like to point you toward operation Northwood which I believe was posted earlier in this thread. While I myself don't believe 9/11 was a government Op I'm not blind enough to completely discount its possibility, regardless of how small the chance. We will find out in 40 or so years.

[QUOTE=s0beit;30091185]We have the most prisoners in the known universe, I'd say that term fits nicely.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_China[/url]

[QUOTE=Jake Nukem;30115066]Well good job I believe you missed the entire point of what Jaeger monster has just said. At any rate I'd like to point you toward operation Northwood which I believe was posted earlier in this thread. While I myself don't believe 9/11 was a government Op I'm not blind enough to completely discount its possibility, regardless of how small the chance. We will find out in 40 or so years.[/QUOTE] Except that out of all shit the government would purposely bomb to gain sympathy, from the symbolic White House, baseball stadiums, or whatever, the World Trade Centers was hit. Out of all targets, that'd be the last place you would ever hit unless you wanted a 50/50 chance of putting your economy back into stone age. Look at the stock market when the second plane hit and we were that close to being economically crippled. Our government would pull shit like Watergate, not bomb an economic-important building.

All I'm gonna say is: I'm fucking glad I'm not the person who has to make decisions that effect an entire country. It can't be a fucking easy job, and I don't think it's really fair to suddenly jump on the bandwagon against a decision made by a president/prime minister/whatever without knowing ALL of the information they knew when they made the decision. I'm not American, but the patriot act seems fucking retarded and like a huge violation of certain freedoms, and Obama seems like the kind of man who would have loved to get rid of such a thing. I doubt this was an easy decision for him to make, or something he'll have enjoyed doing, he probably has huge doubts about it, but in the end he probably realises that because of a metric-fuck-tonne of factors that most of us here aren't aware of: it was the best decision he could make at the time.

I hope everyone realizes that it's not Obama making the bill happen. It's the lobbyists and campaign contributers, members of Congress, and special interest groups. With election season coming up, he's going to have to appeal to a lot of very rich people and businesses in order to fund his campaign. And that means doing things that aren't necessarily for the benefit of the people. Also, this is the problem with bi-partisan voting. Both parties are essentially the same.

[QUOTE=Ultra Violence;30115892]Both parties are essentially the same.[/QUOTE] Really, this [I]again?[/I]

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;30116024]Really, this [I]again?[/I][/QUOTE] On the essential policies, yes, they are incredibly similar. War on Terrorism - supported by both parties War on Drugs - supported by both parties De-regulation of industry - supported by both parties The only difference is in regard to civil and social rights, which, while important, pales in comparison to the huge problems we're facing right now.

[QUOTE=Ultra Violence;30116063]On the essential policies, yes, they are incredibly similar. War on Terrorism - supported by both parties War on Drugs - supported by both parties De-regulation of industry - supported by both parties The only difference is in regard to civil and social rights, which, while important, pales in comparison to the huge problems we're facing right now.[/QUOTE] I guess that's why the Democrats are the ones who introduced Social Security, opposed the Bush tax cuts, and were in favor of health care reform.

[QUOTE=Pepin;30092834]I don't want the government to even have the ability to spy on me without warrant.[/QUOTE] Both of the provisions require a warrant, and the lone wolf one only applies if you are not a US citizen.

[QUOTE=Ultra Violence;30116063]War on Terrorism - supported by both parties War on Drugs - supported by both parties De-regulation of industry - supported by both parties[/QUOTE] [citation needed x3]

[QUOTE=JDK721;30091234]:wtc: do you seriously think Bush was better or just as good as president as Obama is?[/QUOTE] Nah, Obama is just as bad as Bush was.

[QUOTE=5killer;30123808]Both of the provisions require a warrant, and the lone wolf one only applies if you are not a US citizen.[/QUOTE] You fail to realize is that the warrants are self signed by authorities, there is no judiciary review. In other words, a FBI agent can write his own warrant to enter your house without probable cause. I'd describe this as allowing the executive branch to make warrant-less warrants with no oversight. I don't know why you are bringing up the lone wolf amendment. Does it somehow change all of the other provisions? It is also a piece that I disagree with, but not on the basis that it endangers my rights. What also needs to be understood is that the interpretation of The Patriot Act is unknown and secret, which was what was being complained about in the senate.

[QUOTE=Ridge;30125132]Nah, Obama is just as bad as Bush was.[/QUOTE] Ah, you do make me laugh.

[QUOTE=Ridge;30125132]Nah, Obama is just as bad as Bush was.[/QUOTE] :psyboom: how

I would of said I was too busy playing The Witcher 2 to sign it.

[QUOTE=JDK721;30129300]:psyboom: how[/QUOTE] Bad handling of the economy, worse foreign policy. Plenty of differences of course, especially in their views, but how they are handling a lot of issues in similar fashions.

[QUOTE=Pepin;30129793]Bad handling of the economy, worse foreign policy. Plenty of differences of course, especially in their views, but how they are handling a lot of issues in similar fashions.[/QUOTE] elaborate and please explain how "obama is just as bad as bush was"

[QUOTE=Pepin;30129793]worse foreign policy.[/QUOTE] Worse foreign policy? [I]Worse[/I] foreign policy than [B]Bush?[/B] [I][B]Are you fucking kidding me?[/B][/I]

I don't expect to be able to make my point in a single post, so I just google'd some articles that make the case better than I could. There have been many articles on this, so if you're interested in challenging your position, look into it even past the couple of links I'm giving. [url]http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1950827,00.html[/url] [url]http://articles.cnn.com/2008-10-13/politics/wall.bush-obama_1_obama-affirmative-action-teaching-abstinence?_s=PM:POLITICS[/url] [url]http://www.usnews.com/news/obama/articles/2009/03/16/obama-like-bush-uses-crisis-to-expand-presidential-power[/url] [url]http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-embraces-his-inner-bush-2011-5[/url] It's understandable as to why people don't want to believe he is anything like Bush. It's logical to want to assume the person you are supporting is the exact opposite of the person you oppose. But you have to look at actions and policies to get an accurate depiction of the person you support. I encourage you to ask yourself "would Bush do this?" when evaluating many of Obama's actions. I'm not saying that you have to dislike him or dislike his policy, but I am saying it is more realistic to admit that he is a lot like Bush.

[QUOTE=JDK721;30129811]elaborate and please explain how "obama is just as bad as bush was"[/QUOTE] Patriot Act Guantanamo Bay Assassinations Trampling state's rights Entered into a war without Congressional approval Makes the country look bad on the world stage with awful things like giving the Queen a damned iPod. [editline]29th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Megafanx13;30129932]Worse foreign policy? [I]Worse[/I] foreign policy than [B]Bush?[/B] [I][B]Are you fucking kidding me?[/B][/I][/QUOTE] Obama has been a pushover on the global stage. Bush at least stuck to his guns when dealing with foreign governments.

[QUOTE=Pepin;30126569]You fail to realize is that the warrants are self signed by authorities, there is no judiciary review. In other words, a FBI agent can write his own warrant to enter your house without probable cause. I'd describe this as allowing the executive branch to make warrant-less warrants with no oversight. I don't know why you are bringing up the lone wolf amendment. Does it somehow change all of the other provisions? It is also a piece that I disagree with, but not on the basis that it endangers my rights. What also needs to be understood is that the interpretation of The Patriot Act is unknown and secret, which was what was being complained about in the senate.[/QUOTE] You have to go to a judge to get a warrant.

[QUOTE=Ridge;30130294]Patriot Act[/QUOTE] It would have been political suicide to oppose it at this point. I doubt it was something he actively wanted to do. [QUOTE=Ridge;30130294]Guantanamo Bay[/QUOTE] Also kind of unsolvable. If we closed Guantanamo, where would we put the prisoners? I doubt Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, etc. want them back. [QUOTE=Ridge;30130294]Assassinations[/QUOTE] Who? [QUOTE=Ridge;30130294]Trampling state's rights[/QUOTE] Yeah, how dare he try to get healthcare to more people! [QUOTE=Ridge;30130294]Entered into a war without Congressional approval[/QUOTE] You know just as well as I do it was the right thing to do. He had the approval of the UN and the rest of NATO, and was extremely cautious in going into to doing anything in Libya. [QUOTE=Ridge;30130294]Makes the country look bad on the world stage with awful things like giving the Queen a damned iPod.[/QUOTE] Oh no, however will we live down the shame of giving someone an iPod? [QUOTE=Ridge;30130294]Obama has been a pushover on the global stage. Bush at least stuck to his guns when dealing with foreign governments.[/QUOTE] If by a pushover, you mean not doing things recklessly and being modest, than I'd rather he be a pushover. Do not kid yourself. Obama is far better than Bush.

[QUOTE=5killer;30131236]You have to go to a judge to get a warrant.[/QUOTE] No you don't. Have you been paying attention at? This is what the huge controversy is about.

lol at the obama apologists obama is a bad president just for this signature at the very least not to mention all the other stupid shit he has done

[QUOTE=yawmwen;30131589]lol at the obama apologists obama is a bad president just for this signature at the very least not to mention all the other stupid shit he has done[/QUOTE] "Obama apologists"? You act as if I'm defending some war criminal. This is a bad policy and should not have been signed, but you've got to be out of your mind to think he's worse than Bush.