[QUOTE=Tophat;47875080]As cold as you're being, I can see where you're coming from. You want the laws of nature to be enforced in a "survival of the fittest" sort of manner, right? Well there's a lot of problems with that, given the nature of present human society; if we were to do everything with that mindset, I suppose we'd kill off the elderly too right? I mean they're pretty much incompetent and useless by your standards, same with people who have mental and physical disorders, etc? You're really making a lot of assumptions without seeming to have observed and understood society and culture.[/QUOTE]
I'm afraid speaking coldly about these matters is a necessity if we're to deal with the scale of their effects.
As for social Darwinism, I am entirely against it.
The elderly have been previously productive citizens that would ideally have a part in shaping the next generation, they deserve respect as a result.
People with mental (depends on the kind) and physical disorders ideally have the help of their families, if not though, they still deserve care and respect in their unfortunate circumstances.
People who have made a stupid decision and are paying for it are quite different from the above groups.
[QUOTE=The golden;47875092]That's why we have trained professionals, counselling, psychiatrists, rehab, and medications to help with getting off addictions?
I think you've gotten it into your head that these facilities are the only help provided to addicts (they're not) and/or that getting off an addiction is something you do overnight.. I'm not going to repeat what these facilities are for, it's been said so many times already you should know by now.[/QUOTE]
You obviously don't think I believe that because it's a silly caricature of the position that opposes yours.
I think that normalizing drug addiction and use by bringing them into the public square and removing some of the significant personal consequences of engaging in them will not improve our society (and will instead encourage destructive behaviour).
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;47875102]I'm afraid speaking coldly about these matters is a necessity if we're to deal with the scale of their effects.
As for social Darwinism, I am entirely against it.
The elderly have been previously productive citizens that would ideally have a part in shaping the next generation, they deserve respect as a result.
People with mental (depends on the kind) and physical disorders ideally have the help of their families, if not though, they still deserve care and respect in their unfortunate circumstances.
People who have made a stupid decision and are paying for it are quite different from the above groups.[/QUOTE]
Okay, well then my mistake for making assumptions about your views on the issue. Although I still don't agree with what you're saying.
Some of these people didn't end up that way by choice (in the sense that they did it for fun as a brash decision). For example that methadone user I mentioned earlier shattered one of his leg bones playing football, and so he turned to heroin to numb the pain whenever it got out of hand. Sure there are probably better ways to deal with it, but that was his choice, he wasn't just doing it for fun. After that he moved over to methadone so that he could work his way towards stopping all-together, and now he's at the point where they just give him his "juice" and he's on his way. He's at the point where he want's to get the procedure done to stop it all-together.
All of this was happening while he was working hard and still remaining a functional person in society.
Had things been done your way he would have been much worse off.
[QUOTE=Tophat;47875125]Okay, well then my mistake for making assumptions about your views on the issue. Although I still don't agree with what you're saying.
Some of these people didn't end up that way by choice. For example that methadone user I mentioned earlier shattered one of his leg bones playing football, and so he turned to heroin to numb the pain whenever it got out of hand. Sure there are probably better ways to deal with it, but that was his choice, he wasn't just doing it for fun. After that he moved over to methadone so that he could work his way towards stopping all-together, and now he's at the point where they just give him his "juice" and he's on his way. He's at the point where he want's to get the procedure done to stop it all-together.
All of this was happening while he was working hard and still remaining a functional person in society.
Had things been done your way he would have been much worse off.[/QUOTE]
If most drug addicts were in a comparable situation, I'd be more inclined to change my views (that is if they are still productive members of society).
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;47874700]Why does it mean that tax money should be put towards allowing him to feed his addiction?[/QUOTE]
It's so these people can have it be done in a safe and controlled manner and eventually maybe even get them off the drugs.
If you do a stupid stunt that you know is dumb, get your leg broken, should Canada's healthcare not cover you? That's the same logic your using.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;47874762]My question remains. Just because a person's stupid decision has put their life at risk does not mean that official intervention is required.[/QUOTE]
For a christian it seems like you have a really hard time with the "compassion thing" to be honest. At the very least this takes needles off the streets.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;47875134]If most drug addicts were in a comparable situation, I'd be more inclined to change my views (that is if they are still productive members of society).[/QUOTE]
This whole 'assigning worth to people based on vague delusions about productivity' discourse is so fucking trite. Not everyone can be as cold and calculating as you. Some people are never given the opportunity to be your version of 'productive'. An overwhelming amount of people are raised in shitty situations, and a whole lot of them develop mental disorders that force them into drug addiction. There is no escaping that. It's ugly but it's real and it's everywhere, acknowledging and accomodating it is the only solution. Even if that means -shock horror- tainting your warped, blemish-free idea of what society is.
Ignoring disadvantaged people completely and focusing all available helpful resources on people who are already well off just worsens the divide in society. Equity means helping [I]everyone[/I] where it's possible, [I]especially[/I] those who actually need it and not just anyone who gets your backwards, hyper-capitalist award for being 'productive'.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;47873236]No, this is going to bolster support in Harper's base who sees drug users as a drain on society and thinks they should all be locked up.[/QUOTE]
As a humble Albertan I'll [B]drink[/B] to that. Hopefully addictive substances will be purged from our streets.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;47874829]I'm sure giving away free stuff would reduce burglaries too, the question is not so simple as keeping people from dying right now, the question is what our stance on drug use should be.
Injection centers, while keeping a portion of an already tiny amount of deaths from occurring, encourage normalization of drug use. This brings it into the public sphere and out of a more hidden underworld., where it should stay
If people do not have to fear the immediate effects of drug use or a negative social stigma attached to it, what reason is there to not use drugs (from a personal perspective)?[/QUOTE]
what? so if there was no stigma attached to heroin you'd start shooting up straight away?
this isn't how people work.
there are tonnes of reasons to not use drugs even if people dont treat you like a criminal for it,
number 1 being health obvsly.
why should drug use stay in a "more hidden underworld" i.e. on the streets of your cities and in impoverished neighbourhoods. drugs need to be normalized so that people can actually understand what they are, what they do and how to avoid getting their lives fucked up from them.
you dolt.
Education would stop a lot of the problems related to drugs, I know first hand.
Listing what most people said, these centres:
- Keep the drugs off the streets
- Keep the druggies off the streets while doing the deed
- Lower the crime rate, as there's less need for criminals dealing in drugs
- Show the people who have completely lost touch of society (as this is what I believe happens after a while) that there ARE people who care, and there ARE better places then that one alleyway or public toilet when shooting up
- Give those people another shot at LIFE.
How anyone can be against this because "MUH TAX MUNNY" and "THEY CHOSE THIS LIFE" is pretty inhumane and downright ignorant about the problems;
especially seeing what stupid shit tax money gets spent on from time to time.
To say that this will encourage more people to do drugs is unilkely, I'm not gonna feel like doing heroin because I know I can get my shot from an institution.
If anyone does, they would've most likely done it anyway.
I see some people in this thread would do great in the current political climate.
[QUOTE=wickedplayer494;47872669][B]And this bill will also be a nail in the coffin for the Conservatives in the election too. But there's already a whole bunch more ensuring the coffin's kept shut.[/B]
At this rate even though I'm not a fan of them even an NDP government would be good enough just to get Harper off the top. Too bad Trudeau's siding with Harper on topics like C-51.[/QUOTE]
Don't keep your hopes up. We said this about our own Tories before May.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;47875625]For a christian it seems like you have a really hard time with the "compassion thing" to be honest. At the very least this takes needles off the streets.[/QUOTE]
How do you propose the state should help people then, should it just be philanthropic to a fault, or should its primary directive in policy be to sustain the current society? I'm more inclined towards the latter, it's saner.
I don't mean to say that people need to be wealthy to be supported, they just need to be doing something with their lives that generates wealth. If most drug addicts are capable of sustain a position such as that in society I would have no issues with changing my opinions. At the moment though, I'm not sure that most drug addicts want help beyond getting their next fix.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;47876631]If most drug addicts are capable of sustain a position such as that in society I would have no issues with changing my opinions. At the moment though, I'm not sure that most drug addicts want help beyond getting their next fix.[/QUOTE]
But theres people that need help to GET to a position in society so they can "do their part".
If nothing gets done, as you propose (if I understand your point), they'll never get the help.
Maybe one in a thousand will get befriended by a nice person who tries to help them out.
And no, they won't actively go looking for help, or want it, perse.
Thats what I meant with
[quote=DatAsian]Show the people who have completely lost touch of society (as this is what I believe happens after a while) that there ARE people who care, and there ARE better places then that one alleyway or public toilet when shooting up[/quote]
They go to the clinic, just to get a cheap shot.
After a few times, they see there are people that care about them, and they see that not every corner of the world is as filthy as those dark alleways and nasty toilets, and they might see the "light" again.
If they don't get this chance, there's no way in hell these people will change their ways.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;47875058]My interest is in upholding a certain cultural standard of morality by discouraging destructive behaviour and dealing with human vice in the most productive way possible.[/QUOTE]
And my interest is in having less dead people on the street. The people who work in these Insite clinics help people to get off their addiction, AND they help prevent those people from getting AIDs or HIV.
The safe use of these drugs helps us spend less money on saving these peoples live
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;47876631]How do you propose the state should help people then, should it just be philanthropic to a fault, or should its primary directive in policy be to sustain the current society? I'm more inclined towards the latter, it's saner.
I don't mean to say that people need to be wealthy to be supported, they just need to be doing something with their lives that generates wealth. If most drug addicts are capable of sustain a position such as that in society I would have no issues with changing my opinions. At the moment though, I'm not sure that most drug addicts want help beyond getting their next fix.[/QUOTE]
It shouldn't demonize people who have enough issues to deal with.
Like what is the option here? Have you ever been through the lower east side of Vancouver? Do you understand how many of these people there are and how ignoring them just ISN'T an option? Do you get that by not helping them at all, you just breed an atmosphere and attitude where they will never be fixed.
I can't see how you justify your view to yourself.
Why don't drug users just not do drugs? It's not the tax payers responsibility to fund your life style.
[QUOTE=DestinyDstryr;47877625]Why don't drug users just not do drugs? It's not the tax payers responsibility to fund your life style.[/QUOTE]
If only it where that easy and honestly, insite has little to do with "Funding their lifestyle" and more with giving them a safe place to not get aids in.
Or do you want to be paying for the medical bills of saving them from aids, or do you care so little about their lives because of drug use that their deaths would never bother you?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47877631]If only it where that easy and honestly, insite has little to do with "Funding their lifestyle" and more with giving them a safe place to not get aids in.
Or do you want to be paying for the medical bills of saving them from aids, or do you care so little about their lives because of drug use that their deaths would never bother you?[/QUOTE]
Why should I care about people who don't even care about themselves or others? Society works because people contribute to it and we mutually benefit from it. Drug users and other criminals are just leaches who can honestly just die for all I care. They contribute nothing but death, disease and crime.
[QUOTE=DestinyDstryr;47877668]Why should I care about people who don't even care about themselves or others? Society works because people contribute to it and we mutually benefit from it. Drug users and other criminals are just leaches who can honestly just die for all I care. They contribute nothing but death, disease and crime.[/QUOTE]
You end up in a car accidents and they give you a painkiller that's also a drug and oh shit you developed an addiction without even knowing it, you're a fucking criminal now
These are people too and they deserve help
[QUOTE=DestinyDstryr;47877668]Why should I care about people who don't even care about themselves or others? Society works because people contribute to it and we mutually benefit from it. Drug users and other criminals are just leaches who can honestly just die for all I care. They contribute nothing but death, disease and crime.[/QUOTE]
so basically you don't know anything about society and you'd rather feign your ignorance in the form of aggressive and vile arrogance? Okay.
These people are people on the lowest rung of life. Do you, or anyone, REALLY fucking think for a second, these people choose to be useless and drugged up? Do you think they all had all the chances, choices, and opportunities you did?
They were kicked down by people with YOUR attitude, people like you have put them in this position, and people like you will basically put them into the grave with your attitude and utter childish mentality about what these people deserve.
Society is saving itself money, and human capital by saving these people from horrible diseases and the staff of Insite help get people to slowly kick their habbit as heroin withdrawl can kill you.
But no, you're a clearly not a 12 year old with a 12 year olds tenuous grasp on things.
[QUOTE=DestinyDstryr;47877668]Why should I care about people who don't even care about themselves or others? Society works because people contribute to it and we mutually benefit from it. Drug users and other criminals are just leaches who can honestly just die for all I care. They contribute nothing but death, disease and crime.[/QUOTE]
You're honestly writing some pretty insane shit here. Please consider changing your opinions, or you'll never get any friends in life.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47877689]so basically you don't know anything about society and you'd rather feign your ignorance in the form of aggressive and vile arrogance? Okay.
These people are people on the lowest rung of life. Do you, or anyone, REALLY fucking think for a second, these people choose to be useless and drugged up? Do you think they all had all the chances, choices, and opportunities you did?
They were kicked down by people with YOUR attitude, people like you have put them in this position, and people like you will basically put them into the grave with your attitude and utter childish mentality about what these people deserve.
Society is saving itself money, and human capital by saving these people from horrible diseases and the staff of Insite help get people to slowly kick their habbit as heroin withdrawl can kill you.
But no, you're a clearly not a 12 year old with a 12 year olds tenuous grasp on things.[/QUOTE]
Lol what BS. Please learn about the world before pretending these poor down trodden souls aren't responsible in anyway for their shitty situation. If you do drugs, just die, save us all the trouble please.
[QUOTE=The golden;47877718]He's clearly trolling. Report and move on.[/QUOTE]
"No one could ever possibly be against drugs~!!"
Fuck off to your weed patch hippy.
[highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Gimmick" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=DestinyDstryr;47877709]Lol what BS. Please learn about the world before pretending these poor down trodden souls aren't responsible in anyway for their shitty situation. If you do drugs, just die, save us all the trouble please.[/QUOTE]
And what do you know about the world exactly? From this you're showing you don't get even basic human decency let alone the complicated events that lead people to bad situations in life.
So explain to me how the fuck you've come to that conclusion?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47877725]And what do you know about the world exactly? From this you're showing you don't get even basic human decency let alone the complicated events that lead people to bad situations in life.
So explain to me how the fuck you've come to that conclusion?[/QUOTE]
Drug user detected. Kill yourself. Nvm, you will sooner or later, LOL.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;47874700]Why does it mean that tax money should be put towards allowing him to feed his addiction?[/QUOTE]
Can I just ask, what the fuck is with these kinds of people and tax money?
More important than God, more sanctimonious than marriage, God forbid tax money be 'wasted'. Especially on anything that might help someone else.
[QUOTE=bIgFaTwOrM12;47874643]Are we going to address the fact that maybe a lot of people are addicted because they made a stupid decision too?[/QUOTE]
Nyet. People do not know if they have underlying initiators for addiction unless they have has experience with viewing the effects that drugs have on their family members. Whether you wish to accept this reasoning is up to you, but drug addiction is different kicks for different folk, and always has been.
[QUOTE=DestinyDstryr;47877739]Drug user detected. Kill yourself. Nvm, you will sooner or later, LOL.[/QUOTE]
Ok, just from the way you're posting right now (combined with your avatar) I'm going to assume you're a young teenager, especially because I used to think the exact same way. In which case, (even if I'm wrong) chill the fuck out.The world is not black and white like you seem to think it is. People turn to drugs for many reasons, and a lot of them are fucked up, because that's how their lives are. Not everyone is a drug addict because they're morons who wanted to get high and party. These people know harder lives than you likely ever will, so show some fucking compassion.
Also, don't use hippy as an insult. It makes you sound ridiculous, and the hippies were awesome anyway.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;47877819]Ok, just from the way you're posting right now (combined with your avatar) I'm going to assume you're a young teenager, especially because I used to think the exact same way. In which case, (even if I'm wrong) chill the fuck out.The world is not black and white like you seem to think it is. People turn to drugs for many reasons, and a lot of them are fucked up, because that's how their lives are. Not everyone is a drug addict because they're morons who wanted to get high and party. These people know harder lives than you likely ever will, so show some fucking compassion.
Also, don't use hippy as an insult. It makes you sound ridiculous, and the hippies were awesome anyway.[/QUOTE]
BooHoo it's sooo hard living in a first world country like canada~~
First world problems.
[QUOTE=DestinyDstryr;47877832]BooHoo it's sooo hard living in a first world country like canada~~
First world problems.[/QUOTE]
yeah because living in a first world country means you ALWAYS wake up in a bed, under a roof, means you ALWAYS have something to eat, means you ALWAYS have a job to go to, means you ALWAYS have the respect of your countrymen and don't have to face racism, discrimination, or the changing tide of public opinion.
Oh wait, living in a first world country [B]doesn't mean any of those things and people can still have perfectly valid problems.[/B]
But hey, any problem in your life, any problem what so ever? "First world problems" and no one should ever help you.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
