2045: The Year Man Becomes Immortal - Polidicks

[QUOTE=jjsullivan;28141006]Okay, I draw the line at taking my brain out and putting it into a machine.[/QUOTE] How are you any different than someone who refuses to take medication then?

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141017]If people wanted to die at a "normal age" they wouldn't take any medical assistance and would kill themselves at 30. [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] So? It's your choice if you want to bash your head against a wall while chewing tin foil. It's still a stupid choice.[/QUOTE] No, it's a moral choice, it isn't. Morals are subjective, and while you may disagree with it, it's really only their judgement. While I do think it's short sighted not to consider that from a standpoint of immense processing power.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141033]How are you any different than someone who refuses to take medication then?[/QUOTE] What, I just said I'll take my meds. I just wont go as far as to turning into a machine.

Oh and as for obscenity being immediately recognizable, go watch Gone with the Wind. When the word damn is spoken, tell me if you're overcome with a sense of repulsion. Obscenity, quite like "humanity", is completely subjective.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141017] So? It's your choice if you want to bash your head against a wall while chewing tin foil. It's still a stupid choice.[/QUOTE] I believe it'd be better to compare this to DNR or other "do not let me live if this happens" kind of things. A step from the organic to mechanical is obviously a big one, and I believe everyone has a right to decide if they'd want to have it done to them.

[QUOTE=jjsullivan;28141006]Okay, I draw the line at taking my brain out and putting it into a machine.[/QUOTE] So steven hawking put his brain into a machine. Sure its still in a boney thing covered by tissue but everything else is machine.

[QUOTE=jjsullivan;28141061]What, I just said I'll take my meds. I just wont go as far as to turning into a machine.[/QUOTE] The point was that all you're doing is refusing medical attention for no reason in either case. But whatever. Go ahead. I don't want to be explaining every damn sentence I write for the rest of eternity anyway.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28141029]I think if humanity survives on in a metal shell, it'll still be pretty human. We'll find some way to be obscene.[/QUOTE] I would hope so. The thing here i'm questioning is how replacing what I think makes us human would affect how we think, act, and everything else that makes up our... humanness. Stupid word, such a hard thing to describe and it makes it so circular at times. [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141063]Oh and as for obscenity being immediately recognizable, go watch Gone with the Wind. When the word damn is spoken, tell me if you're overcome with a sense of repulsion. Obscenity, quite like "humanity", is completely subjective.[/QUOTE] It's a reference to the origin of the phrase "I know it when I see it" And yes it is subjective, that's pretty much the point of that. I never really thought it was objective and i've just been arguing from my perception of it. What I think is absurd is probably perfectly reasonable to someone else.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28140902]I tihnk you're very short sighted. We have problems coming down the road we don't want to address. The last thing we can really afford to do, is be conservative and not try and become as good as we can be. We're not perfect, you may take that objectively, but we're far from perfect, you may believe in some ideal human quality of the flesh, but I see nothing that special. I even want to hang onto it longer than most of the guys here jumping on you, but I still don't see that quality.[/QUOTE] I don't see anything special, I just know when we over stay our welcome. And if its short sighted, fine. But its not conservative, we can become as good as we can through un-aided triumph. We've done it since civilization has started and that's what has shaped our history. Its a long...and bloody history, but its ours. And I believe that through our combined imperfections and perfections, we actually are able to advance and critically think. My opinion on this will probably change as the thread goes along, mainly due to learned avoidance. For now though, I can see where those that cannot function in society without aid being able to use machines to full effect, but those who can function without, just abusing this.

[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;28141064]I believe it'd be better to compare this to DNR or other "do not let me live if this happens" kind of things.[/QUOTE] how is it anything like that at all? This isn't like being mortally injured by the Arachnids of Klendathu, this is just refusing medical attention for no reason other than the fact that you have a funny feeling. [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;28141098]I don't see anything special, I just know when we over stay our welcome.[/QUOTE] Yeah. Fucking Centenarians.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141017]If people wanted to die at a "normal age" they wouldn't take any medical assistance and would kill themselves at 30. [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] So? It's your choice if you want to bash your head against a wall while chewing tin foil. It's still a stupid choice.[/QUOTE] People must be allowed to make their own decisions on things like that. That much CAN be defined as ethical. As much as I disagree, people should have the right to decide how long they want to live, simply because it is a basic human right.

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;28141093]I would hope so. The thing here i'm questioning is how replacing what I think makes us human would affect how we think, act, and everything else that makes up our... humanness. Stupid word, such a hard thing to describe and it makes it so circular at times.[/QUOTE] I take meds for social anxiety, does that make me less human too? I mean they effect how I act(IE; not anti socially). [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=froztshock;28141113]People must be allowed to make their own decisions on things like that. That much CAN be defined as ethical. As much as I disagree, people should have the right to decide how long they want to live, simply because it is a basic human right.[/QUOTE] Christ, do I keep having to say I didn't say anything you people are implying I said? Yeah, it's his right to make his decision. It's also my right o point out that it's a stupid superstitious decision.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141129]I take meds for social anxiety, does that make me less human too? I mean they effect how I act(IE; not anti socially).[/QUOTE] They don't change your entire basic interface with the world, so I would say no. Someone might say otherwise, which I would think is weird, but that's the problem with this whole damn thing.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141102]how is it anything like that at all? This isn't like being mortally injured by the Arachnids of Klendathu, this is just refusing medical attention for no reason other than the fact that you have a funny feeling. [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] Yeah. Fucking Centenarians.[/QUOTE] Funny, because that's exactly what I do say :colbert:

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;28141156]They don't change your basic interface with the world, so I would say no. Someone might say otherwise, which I would think is weird, but that's the problem with this whole damn thing.[/QUOTE] The problem being that both you and this imaginary person are just blowing hot air. First you say it would affect your "humanness" because it would change the way you think, then you say it affects your "humanness" because it would affect the way you interact with the world. You know what, you aren't human if you're black, because dark skin changes your humanity. How? Why? Fuck if I'll ever explain it to you, but I know it to be true.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141129]I take meds for social anxiety, does that make me less human too? I mean they effect how I act(IE; not anti socially). [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] Christ, do I keep having to say I didn't say anything you people are implying I said? Yeah, it's his right to make his decision. It's also my right o point out that it's a stupid superstitious decision.[/QUOTE] Its also pretentious and douchebaggy, like most posts you seem to make. But I don't see that happening any time soon.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141129]I take meds for social anxiety, does that make me less human too? I mean they effect how I act(IE; not anti socially). [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] Christ, do I keep having to say I didn't say anything you people are implying I said? Yeah, it's his right to make his decision. It's also my right o point out that it's a stupid superstitious decision.[/QUOTE]. I never implied that you said they didn't have the right to make that decision. What I'm basically trying to say is that pointing out that it is a stupid decision probably won't get anyone anywhere, so I don't really think it's worth it to do so, as much as [b]I agree with you on everything else[/b]

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141203]The problem being that both you and this imaginary person are just blowing hot air. First you say it would affect your "humanness" because it would change the way you think, then you say it affects your "humanness" because it would affect the way you interact with the world. You know what, you aren't human if you're black, because dark skin changes your humanity. How? Why? Fuck if I'll ever explain it to you, but I know it to be true.[/QUOTE] Hey, i'm being consistent. I think changing every aspect of your body and how you interface with the world would change deeply how you would think and what your experiences would be and would affect that quality called humanness. I'm not taking some position as simplistic or stupid as the one you came up with.

[QUOTE=Swilly;28141196]Funny, because that's exactly what I do say :colbert:[/QUOTE] Unless you're trying to say that Centenarians aren't "out staying their welcome", yeah. Because if you aren't then I really don't understand what the world is in your mind. The closest analogue I can imagine is a race, and you have to stop living when you finish the race, and if you augment yourself in some way to run for longer that's cheating. As decided by a Time Lord from Dr. Who or something.

Well, I'm guessing this is still all "hypothetical" and "could happen". But our bodies are a part of our culture, our expression, which would also mean our humanity. How apt would a robot be to dancing? To singing? How would we have the same satisfactions the same ways of touch, smell, hearing, taste, sight? Would we just get zapped in the right spots in the brain? Would we all run on vocaloid or something? I just think with all of our concepts of technology and digital media, I don't think we can make these things to the same as our bodies. Call me a downer, but I don't see it being feasible.

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;28141229]Hey, i'm being consistent. I think changing every aspect of your body and how you interface with the world would change deeply how you would think and what your experiences would be and would affect that quality called humanness. I'm not taking some position as simplistic or stupid as the one you came up with.[/QUOTE] It's not as if you've defined what humanness is either, so I don't see how your position is smarter than that of my imaginary racist.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141203]The problem being that both you and this imaginary person are just blowing hot air. First you say it would affect your "humanness" because it would change the way you think, then you say it affects your "humanness" because it would affect the way you interact with the world. You know what, you aren't human if you're black, because dark skin changes your humanity. How? Why? Fuck if I'll ever explain it to you, but I know it to be true.[/QUOTE] Humanity is the idea that through our imperfections and through every tiny mistake, mishap, miscalculation, we learn and better ourselves. Its a slow process that has spanned since the beginning of our civilizations and will continue to be a slow process. Even with mechanical enhancement we'll still make mistakes, mishaps and misjudgements. The machine does not aid, all it does abide and through that we lose our humanity. We may use machines through our finger tips, but we're able to pull away if we're forced to. If we are to replace pieces of our organic material with machine, we can no longer pull away. If something horrible were to happen and repair became unavailable, the machine would become just a sustainable to failure as the organ portion it replaced. At least with the organic, it can naturally heal. I can't say that much for a mechanical replacement.

[QUOTE=jjsullivan;28141240]Well, I'm guessing this is still all "hypothetical" and "could happen". But our bodies are a part of our culture, our expression, which would also mean our humanity. How apt would a robot be to dancing? To singing? How would we have the same satisfactions the same ways of touch, smell, hearing, taste, sight? Would we just get zapped in the right spots in the brain? Would we all run on vocaloid or something? I just think with all of our concepts of technology and digital media, I don't think we can make these things to the same as our bodies. Call me a downer, but I don't see it being feasible.[/QUOTE] This is pretty much what I think, maybe beyond the feasibility thing. I'm not saying it would be better to be more than human, worse to be more than human, anything like that, I just don't think that you can deny that it would be [I]different[/I] and so much so that calling it human seems not quite right. [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141249]It's not as if you've defined what humanness is either, so I don't see how your position is smarter than that of my imaginary racist.[/QUOTE] Ok fine, humanness is the quality we acquire through socialization, culture, and all those sort of things as experienced through the construct that is the human body. Eliminating the body I think would change that those experiences and the quality. It's not a perfect definition and doesn't encompass everything but if you're gonna keep bitching about it ok. It's the interface with the world that I think is a key piece of it.

[QUOTE=jjsullivan;28141240]Well, I'm guessing this is still all "hypothetical" and "could happen". But our bodies are a part of our culture, our expression, which would also mean our humanity. How apt would a robot be to dancing? To singing? How would we have the same satisfactions the same ways of touch, smell, hearing, taste, sight? Would we just get zapped in the right spots in the brain? Would we all run on vocaloid or something? I just think with all of our concepts of technology and digital media, I don't think we can make these things to the same as our bodies. Call me a downer, but I don't see it being feasible.[/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qJ7cI2ETak[/media] [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;28141261]Humanity is the idea that through our imperfections and through every tiny mistake, mishap, miscalculation, we learn and better ourselves. Its a slow process that has spanned since the beginning of our civilizations and will continue to be a slow process. Even with mechanical enhancement we'll still make mistakes, mishaps and misjudgements. The machine does not aid, all it does abide and through that we lose our humanity. We may use machines through our finger tips, but we're able to pull away if we're forced to. If we are to replace pieces of our organic material with machine, we can no longer pull away. If something horrible were to happen and repair became unavailable, the machine would become just a sustainable to failure as the organ portion it replaced. At least with the organic, it can naturally heal. I can't say that much for a mechanical replacement.[/QUOTE] 1. Someone augmented with cybernetics would still learn, that's kind of a fundemental limit of all non omnipotent beings. 2. How is the fact that robots are fallible make them make us less human? What does that have to do with anything? How is that any different than a normal, home grown organic body afflicted with an inoperable tumor? Yeah, I don't see how you could have forgotten fucking cancer.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141272][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qJ7cI2ETak[/media] [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] 1. Someone augmented with cybernetics would still learn, that's kind of a fundemental limit of all non omnipotent beings. 2. How is the fact that robots are fallible make them make us less human? What does that have to do with anything? How is that any different than a normal, home grown organic body afflicted with an inoperable tumor? Yeah, I don't see how you could have forgotten fucking cancer.[/QUOTE] I think I saw that (the robotic hand) in PopSci, pretty sure that it uses light sent through fiber-optic cables to stimulate nerve endings, because electricity is too harsh and causes damage.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141272][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qJ7cI2ETak[/media] [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] 1. Someone augmented with cybernetics would still learn, that's kind of a fundemental limit of all non omnipotent beings. 2. How is the fact that robots are fallible make them make us less human? What does that have to do with anything? How is that any different than a normal, home grown organic body afflicted with an inoperable tumor? Yeah, I don't see how you could have forgotten fucking cancer.[/QUOTE] Still that only accounts for pressure, which is great for amputees but I'm not eagerly chopping off my arm just so I can have a "better" one.

Eh, at least 3x longer. Look at previous predictions that came true and it's usually at [I]least[/I] 3x longer than anticipated.

[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;28141264]Ok fine, humanness is the quality we acquire through socialization, culture, and all those sort of things as experienced through the construct that is the human body. Eliminating the body I think would change that those experiences and the quality. It's not a perfect definition and doesn't encompass everything but if you're gonna keep bitching about it ok. It's the interface with the world that I think is a key piece of it.[/QUOTE] And as I've said, I change the way I experience the world, for the better I can assure you, through medication. How is that any different? All you've said is that you don't think I'm less human, but someone else might. Well why wouldn't you think I'm less human? Why wouldn't emotions themselves classify as changing the way we experience and interact with the world? You're trying to define something that's incredibly fluid even without cybernetics. [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=jjsullivan;28141328]Still that only accounts for pressure, which is great for amputees but I'm not eagerly chopping off my arm just so I can have a "better" one.[/QUOTE] Do you live in some sort of bunker that deflects the fucking point of my posts? [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=froztshock;28141327]I think I saw that (the robotic hand) in PopSci, pretty sure that it uses light sent through fiber-optic cables to stimulate nerve endings, because electricity is too harsh and causes damage.[/QUOTE] Irrelevant. The point is that the nervous system isn't run on fairy dust and unicorn farts. It functions on well known principles that can be eventually emulated.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141343]And as I've said, I change the way I experience the world, for the better I can assure you, through medication. How is that any different? All you've said is that you don't think I'm less human, but someone else might. Well why wouldn't you think I'm less human? Why wouldn't emotions themselves classify as changing the way we experience and interact with the world? You're trying to define something that's incredibly fluid even without cybernetics. [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] Do you live in some sort of bunker that deflects the fucking point of my posts?[/QUOTE] I know it's fluid and I know it's hard to define. And I don't think you would be because it doesn't change the fundamental way in which you interface with the world. Lemme put it this way, if you had a perfect replica of a hand in electronic form, it would still be a hand and you would experience things the same way. If you replaced it with a claw or tentacle, it would change how you fundamentally interface with the world.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28141272][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qJ7cI2ETak[/media] [editline]19th February 2011[/editline] 1. Someone augmented with cybernetics would still learn, that's kind of a fundemental limit of all non omnipotent beings. 2. How is the fact that robots are fallible make them make us less human? What does that have to do with anything? How is that any different than a normal, home grown organic body afflicted with an inoperable tumor? Yeah, I don't see how you could have forgotten fucking cancer.[/QUOTE] And you complain about us not fully understanding what you type.:v: But I'm not going to explain to you, instead think about it. If you don't want to, ignore it. If you can't because it doesn't make logical sense to you then whatever.