[QUOTE=jjsullivan;28140759]People would be able to go brain dead in a shell just as they would a normal body.[/QUOTE]
Thats not the point.
[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;28140736]Well if you wanna be literal, a human is homo homo sapiens so no a dog wouldn't be a human. It has a base definition, and actually going with that a robot wouldn't be a human because, well, it's not a human. Circular but legit.
And why not call it something other than human? There's nothing wrong with going beyond humanity, why keep the baggage of the word human anyways?
I don't see how Hawking could be questionable, but as for the brain dead patient i'm not really sure.[/QUOTE]
Circular implies it isn't legit, brotip.
Completely irrelevant. I'm arguing against the notion that through transhumanism we lose some sort of indescribable trait.
Living for a long time/forever seems interesting to me, getting to see new things and advances in technology and whatnot instead of being buried in dirt.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28140760]Well then it's settled. Since it's impossible for an organism to change species, no matter what you do to your body, you're still technically a human. Case closed.[/QUOTE]
I guess He would be human if his genetics were close enough and a robot would have no genetics at all but it doesn't really matter.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;28140770]This is sorta silly, but you can easily observe it in movies as well; Christopher in District 9 was by far the most human character in the movie, even though he was a Prawn.[/QUOTE]
The word you're looking for is relate-able, not human. Common mistake.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;28140770]This is sorta silly, but you can easily observe it in movies as well; Christopher in District 9 was by far the most human character in the movie, even though he was a Prawn.[/QUOTE]
That's humanity in the emotional sense, i'm talking about in the physical sense. Equivocation and all that.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28140789]Circular implies it isn't legit, brotip.
Completely irrelevant. I'm arguing against the notion that through transhumanism we lose some sort of indescribable trait.[/QUOTE]
Well ok it isn't circular because I meant human as the quality of being a human and human as being part of the homo sapiens species. And just because it's indescribable doesn't mean it exists. It's that "you know it when you see it" sort of thing, and I just think through ridding every physical bit of the body we lose that "thing"
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28140690]
What, that I implied it before or that you make broad generalizations?
[/QUOTE]
You implied it
[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;28140816]That's humanity in the emotional sense, i'm talking about in the physical sense. Equivocation and all that.[/QUOTE]
Arguing about Humanity in the purely physical sense makes about as much sense as arguing it's wrong to advance from the horse to the car since it's "not natural."
The argument of what's human in the physical sense has caused much of the world's suffering, Europe for example saw the "lesser races" as something being less then human based purely off of their physical and cultural attributes.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28140760]Well then it's settled. Since it's impossible for an organism to change species, no matter what you do to your body, you're still technically a human. Case closed.[/QUOTE]
Human is emotions, human is having the features that other humans have. You will always be considered a human even if your body is technically that of another species or not even organic at all. Your conscious is human, and always will be.
[QUOTE=jjsullivan;28140817]You implied it[/QUOTE]
I most certainly did not. I don't see how you can argue that I implied something I quite heartily disagree with.
Okay I'm just going to come clean as I did before and say [b][i]I am scared of being a fucking cyborg, I like being imperfect, imperfection I think defines the human being[/i][/b]
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;28140838]Arguing about Humanity in the purely physical sense makes about as much sense as arguing it's wrong to advance from the horse to the car since it's "not natural."
The argument of what's human in the physical sense has caused much of the world's suffering, Europe for example saw the "lesser races" as something being less then human based purely off of their physical and cultural attributes.[/QUOTE]
I don't really understand what their point actually is.
They're either arguing from a scientific classification sense or a philosophical "humanity" sense. And the former isn't very hard to decide upon and the latter is an undefined characteristic that seems to change to be whatever they want it to be.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;28140838]Arguing about Humanity in the purely physical sense makes about as much sense as arguing it's wrong to advance from the horse to the car since it's "not natural."
The argument of what's human in the physical sense has caused much of the world's suffering, Europe for example saw the "lesser races" as something being less then human based purely off of their physical and cultural attributes.[/QUOTE]
I'm not assigning any values judgment to my argument though, and i'm not going on variable traits within the human species. I'm also not really arguing FOR anything natural, just about.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28140870]I don't really understand what their point actually is.
They're either arguing from a scientific classification sense or a philosophical "humanity" sense. And the former isn't very hard to decide upon and the latter is an undefined characteristic that seems to change to be whatever they want it to be.[/QUOTE]
Both, pretty much. I think the first ties into/defines the second.
[QUOTE=jjsullivan;28140849]Okay I'm just going to come clean as I did before and say [b][i]I am scared of being a fucking cyborg, I like being imperfect, imperfection I think defines the human being[/i][/b][/QUOTE]
And like I said before, tell me how scared you are of being a robot when you're lying six feet under the ground being gnawed on by worms and ants.
[QUOTE=Swilly;28140223]Because we keep pushing to perfect ourselves and we already are. Our imperfection is what makes us perfect as natural animals. To continue to fight that idea is just....mind blowing. I understand the intentions behind it, but I know it'll never happen.[/QUOTE]
I tihnk you're very short sighted. We have problems coming down the road we don't want to adress. The last thing we can really afford to do, is be conservative and not try and become as good as we can be. We're not perfect, you may take that objectively, but we're far from perfect, you may believe in some ideal human quality of the flesh, but I see nothing that special. I even want to hang onto it longer than most of the guys here jumping on you, but I still don't see that quality.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28140870]I don't really understand what their point actually is.[/QUOTE]
Really, I think most of us are just trying to justify a fear that the rest of you think to be irrational.
Still, I retain this fear, I take it as good instinct, not bad.
[editline]18th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28140894]And like I said before, tell me how scared you are of being a robot when you're lying six feet under the ground being gnawed on by worms and ants.[/QUOTE]
I don't want to live forever. I don't mind dying, death is a painless escape from when this realm becomes too much to bear.
[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;28140875]I'm not assigning any values judgment to my argument though, and i'm not going on variable traits within the human species. I'm also not really arguing FOR anything natural, just about.[/QUOTE]
But that's the point. "human" is a scientific term referring to our species, it's nothing more than a means of classification. It's an arbitrary number that we've assigned to our particular morphology. It doesn't matter any more than your name matters, really.
What's important is this idea of a philosophical "humanity", something that hasn't been defined but many people here seem sure exists. And not only that it exists but it's lost upon replacing or even augmenting the human body.
The truth is that what it means to be human could be argued for all eternity. Really all we're doing is putting ourselves into groups of "I want to live forever and change myself" and "I would like to stay the same as I am and die at a "normal" age" I personally would prefer to improve myself as much as possible if the option presents itself and I get to keep my personality intact.
[QUOTE=jjsullivan;28140916]
[B]I don't want to live forever. I don't mind dying, death is an escape from when this realm becomes too much to bear.[/B][/QUOTE]
No one is forcing you to live forever, I'm absolutely certain you have the ability to shut down or "wipe" your consciousness.
Looking back, this step is actually one of the "steps" envisioned by Isaac Asimov to be the natural progression to "Ascendancy" (yeah, Stargate term, it's still applicable since it's analogous to Godhood or transhumanism) for Humanity.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;28140946]No one is forcing you to live forever, I'm absolutely certain you have the ability to shut down or "wipe" your consciousness.[/QUOTE]
Okay, I still don't like it.
My fear is officially irrational, hope you all like being heaps of metal someday.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28140934]But that's the point. "human" is a scientific term referring to our species, it's nothing more than a means of classification. It's an arbitrary number that we've assigned to our particular morphology. It doesn't matter any more than your name matters, really.
What's important is this idea of a philosophical "humanity", something that hasn't been defined but many people here seem sure exists. And not only that it exists but it's lost upon replacing or even augmenting the human body.[/QUOTE]
We're pretty much just arguing about philosophical opinions now and we both know that's not gonna go anywhere, so... that's about it.
e: It's hard to define yeah, and I don't want to put the effort that it would take into defining it how I perceive it, exactly. Like I said, humanity is like obscenity. You know it when you see it.
[QUOTE=jjsullivan;28140849]Okay I'm just going to come clean as I did before and say [b][i]I am scared of being a fucking cyborg, I like being imperfect, imperfection I think defines the human being[/i][/b][/QUOTE]
A machine is not perfect. But if you are scared of being perfect stop taking medication. It will help you be less perfect.
[QUOTE=jjsullivan;28140916]Really, I think most of us are just trying to justify a fear that the rest of you think to be irrational.
Still, I retain this fear, I take it as good instinct, not bad.
[editline]18th February 2011[/editline]
I don't want to live forever. I don't mind dying, death is a painless escape from when this realm becomes too much to bear.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's irrational, it self evidently is.
What you're doing is no different than someone with liver failure refusing a transplant. All you're doing is killing yourself for a feeling.
Fuck, if you were even the least bit intelligent what you'd do is become a robot first, [I]then[/I] and only then if it was what you said it was and you lost some sort of indescribable "you"ness, you'd kill yourself. But no, that would be smart.
[QUOTE=jjsullivan;28140966]Okay, I still don't like it.
hope you all like being heaps of metal someday.[/QUOTE]
Hey its better then being nasty meat.
[QUOTE=jjsullivan;28140966]Okay, I still don't like it.
My fear is officially irrational, hope you all like being heaps of metal someday.[/QUOTE]
I'd say hope you like being dead, but I suppose that you won't really be capable of that sort of thing. Ho ho.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;28140970]A machine is not perfect. But if you are scared of being perfect stop taking medication. It will help you be less perfect.[/QUOTE]
Okay, I draw the line at taking my brain out and putting it into a machine.
[QUOTE=Tetracycline;28140839]Human is emotions, human is having the features that other humans have. You will always be considered a human even if your body is technically that of another species or not even organic at all. Your conscious is human, and always will be.[/QUOTE]
This isn't really true at all. If your mind was transfered to another brain, or another substitute that didn't simulate the original brain enough, it would probably go badly. I imagine, and this conversation is wholly conjecture, that it's not quite that simple. I'm sure brains are complicated enough pieces of hardware that it's a little more delicate than that to do such things.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;28140980]I don't think it's irrational, it self evidently is.
What you're doing is no different than someone with liver failure refusing a transplant. All you're doing is killing yourself for a feeling.
Fuck, if you were even the least bit intelligent what you'd do is become a robot first, [I]then[/I] and only then if it was what you said it was and you lost some sort of indescribable "you"ness, you'd kill yourself. But no, that would be smart.[/QUOTE]
As much as I believe it's a bad idea to refuse the even idea of becoming a semi-immortal machine, I still think it's kind of ignorant to say someone's a fool for refusing it. In the end it's their choice, and their choice alone.
[QUOTE=froztshock;28140944]The truth is that what it means to be human could be argued for all eternity. Really all we're doing is putting ourselves into groups of "I want to live forever and change myself" and "I would like to stay the same as I am and die at a "normal" age" I personally would prefer to improve myself as much as possible if the option presents itself and I get to keep my personality intact.[/QUOTE]
If people wanted to die at a "normal age" they wouldn't take any medical assistance and would kill themselves at 30.
[editline]19th February 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;28141013]As much as I believe it's a bad idea to refuse the even idea of becoming a semi-immortal machine, I still think it's kind of ignorant to say someone's a fool for refusing it. In the end it's their choice, and their choice alone.[/QUOTE]
So? It's your choice if you want to bash your head against a wall while chewing tin foil. It's still a stupid choice.
[QUOTE=Xen Tricks;28140967]We're pretty much just arguing about philosophical opinions now and we both know that's not gonna go anywhere, so... that's about it.
e: It's hard to define yeah, and I don't want to put the effort that it would take into defining it how I perceive it, exactly. Like I said, humanity is like obscenity. You know it when you see it.[/QUOTE]
I think if humanity survives on in a metal shell, it'll still be pretty human. We'll find some way to be obscene.
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