• BBC accused of Brexit bias by more than 70 MPs in open letter
    123 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;52014363]I'm not in the business of owning factories but say I moved my factory to Lithuania and imported my created products. My 200 employees in the Netherlands lose their jobs, and have to go to into social security because my fellow entrepreneurs are also moving their factories to cheap countries. I gain a lot of money by cutting my expenses, but my countrymen are disparaged. Is that what you want?[/QUOTE] Would you rather the EU not exist and businessmen outright delocate their factories to third world countries with abysmal standards and pay for workers, making Dutch domestic companies uncompetitive? At least the EU labor norms puts some limits on how corporations can treat their workers. Free trade within the EU ensures European companies remain competitive without having to lower themselves to other regions' practices.
[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;52014428]But then the Dutch government would be free to impose tariffs, which they can't do now.[/QUOTE] Which one has more economic weight? The Netherlands or Europe as a whole? [editline]26th March 2017[/editline] You won't go far imposing tariffs or whatever on your own, losing a single country doesn't have too much impact on multinationals. But they're more likely to respect the rules enforced by a union that they make a substantial part of their turnover in. [editline]26th March 2017[/editline] It's like a labour union really. Without it countries end up having to compete with one another to attract businesses, while in the Union sticking to a common economic policy means higher negotiating power.
[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;52014707]My point was that domestic (eg Dutch) workers get fired and foreign (eg Lithuanian) workers get hired. Good for Lithuania and the Dutch entrepreneur, not so much for the Dutch workers.[/QUOTE] And that would happen outside the EU too, except with even poorer countries with far lower standards, making competition far harsher for companies that employ domestic workers because those who don't have to pay their workers even less to operate.
[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;52014771]But at that point the government [b]could[/b] step in by way of subsidies or tariffs. Now all they get to do is watch jobs disappear.[/QUOTE] But a single, small country setting up tariffs is basically shooting itself in the foot, as I explained earlier. You need to have a substantial weight economically to pressure financial actors into respecting your demands. Don't know about subsidies, can't the Netherlands subsidize industries on their own within the EU? France certainly does. Or are you referring to a specific industry?
[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;52014941]I believe there are restrictions but I could be wrong as I'm working on 6 year old information. I see what you mean in that it's better to have some semblance of control over the country your industries disappear to, than for those industries to go to countries where you have no political power. I'd like to write more but we're getting rather off-topic.[/QUOTE] True that, it's been off-topic for a while now though.
[QUOTE=Dave_Parker;52014363]I'm not in the business of owning factories but say I moved my factory to Lithuania and imported my created products. My 200 employees in the Netherlands lose their jobs, and have to go to into social security because my fellow entrepreneurs are also moving their factories to cheap countries. I gain a lot of money by cutting my expenses, but my countrymen are disparaged. Is that what you want?[/QUOTE] I wanna point out that I think it's funny that you can just move a factory from the Netherlands into Lithuania. It's more likely you use your Dutch money to invest in a Lithuanian factory. And then you, Lithuania and the Netherlands benefits. You could sell the Dutch factory, but the lithuanian factory probably won't give you as much money as a Dutch factory would. You could move to Lithuania, getting money from the dutch factory, and live like a king till the economy rises, and benefit yourself and lithuania (The Dutch still benefit, just less so). The only downside is needing to learn a monster language nobody speaks.
[QUOTE=Craigewan;52014321][Citation Needed][/QUOTE] [url]http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/05/30/the-eu-is-only-an-episode-in-european-history-and-is-doomed-to-failure/[/url] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_debt_crisis[/url] [editline]27th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=gokiyono;52014347]Would make a lot of sense as his title tbh[/QUOTE] the irony of you posting a sentence that doesn't make sense is not lost on me.
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52019644] the irony of you posting a sentence that doesn't make sense is not lost on me.[/QUOTE] What irony? How doesn't it make sense?
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52019644]the irony of you posting a sentence that doesn't make sense is not lost on me.[/QUOTE] See this is why you're getting hostile responses. Look at the above conversation between Dave_Parker and _Axel. They have a back and forth, go over viewpoints, cite some evidence and have a cordial discussion, everyone learns something. Your posts are really defensive and jabby, it's not really forming a discussion. [quote][URL]http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/0...ed-to-failure/[/URL][/quote] This doesn't really go over why it's failing. He says it's not worked when empires tried to rule all of europe, but the EU isn't an empire. He also says: [quote] ‘European policy’ is not European at all, but an amalgam and compromise between contending national policies.[/quote] That's the point isn't it? To find common ground and avoid conflict like the previous millennia in Europe. He also says that the EU offers no sense of belonging. I feel more European than British, and am perfectly happy for funds to go to overseas if it helps prop up their economy and hopefully lets them contribute more in the future. The EU is far from perfect. But I felt that if we were in it we could atleast do some good for the world. Now if (when e.g. greece) anything goes wrong we'll just watch as the world burns and the fire slowly heads our way.
[QUOTE=Occlusion;52020206]See this is why you're getting hostile responses. Look at the above conversation between Dave_Parker and _Axel. They have a back and forth, go over viewpoints, cite some evidence and have a cordial discussion, everyone learns something. Your posts are really defensive and jabby, it's not really forming a discussion. This doesn't really go over why it's failing. He says it's not worked when empires tried to rule all of europe, but the EU isn't an empire. He also says: That's the point isn't it? To find common ground and avoid conflict like the previous millennia in Europe. He also says that the EU offers no sense of belonging. I feel more European than British, and am perfectly happy for funds to go to overseas if it helps prop up their economy and hopefully lets them contribute more in the future. The EU is far from perfect. But I felt that if we were in it we could atleast do some good for the world. Now if (when e.g. greece) anything goes wrong we'll just watch as the world burns and the fire slowly heads our way.[/QUOTE] of course his post was really non hostile and open to dialogue, my bad. I am pleased that someone has recognised that there is some hostility and again of course I deserve it. your one quote from the LSE article highlights the fact that national policies are in contention with EU policies. it's amusing how people can read an article titled "The EU is only an episode in European history – and is doomed to failure" and then choose a few lines and dismiss the rest of it's content, for instance: [QUOTE] A political union will only prosper if its peoples feel some sense of common belonging that makes them willing to make sacrifices for one another. This is lacking in the European Union – Germans will not make financial sacrifices for the Mediterranean countries, while other states put up barriers to keep migrants on their neighbours’ soil. Without the ambitious cultural project on which German unity was built or the drive towards cultural homogenisation undertaken in France, the European Union will remain a discordant assemblage of competing national voices, unwilling to share burdens. [/QUOTE] As a majority, (all be it a slim one) the British public didn't feel a common belonging. idealistically and with rose tinted glasses we could all say "why can't we all just get along" but just because we don't want to be part of the federal european club doesn't mean we can't get along just fine. personally i can't think of anything worse than giving my hard earned tax money to prop up countries with calamitous economical policies. is doing some good in the world exclusive to being an EU member? [editline]27th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=gokiyono;52020133]What irony? How doesn't it make sense?[/QUOTE] please enlighten me what you meant?
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52020865]it's amusing how people can read an article titled "The EU is only an episode in European history – and is doomed to failure" and then choose a few lines and dismiss the rest of it's content, for instance:[/QUOTE] See that's the kind of tone I mean. 'It's amusing' is completely patronising. I just stated my opinion. The whole article is a riff on 'we've never found common ground before, this won't ever work'. It feels like a self fulfilling prophecy. Surely it is worth every possible attempt to try and maintain the unity we have? [QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52020865]personally i can't think of anything worse than giving my hard earned tax money to prop up countries with calamitous economical policies.[/QUOTE] These payments arent things we dont benefit from though. I imagine if Greece had not been bailed out, life would have become untennable for many people and they'd migrate to other EU countries and destabilised the region. If we'd been more intelligent in Syria in terms of aid and a more managed response to refugees, we maybe wouldn't be facing (one of) the crises we have today. The majority of the UKs problems can be put down to the UK and our government, the EU didn't cause the vast wealth divide we have today. I just think the whole thing is a waste of time. The environment should be everyones #1 priority, which is best solved by solid regulation and trade agreements that make clean energy/products viable. Instead we voted to leave and create a mess for the next 4 years, whilst the US continues to cut back the EPA.
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52020865]please enlighten me what you meant?[/QUOTE] That you aren't very good at citinc sources
[QUOTE=gokiyono;52022286]That you aren't very good at citinc sources[/QUOTE] lol, do you mean I am not very good at citing sources that meet with your narrative? in any case you wrote "Would make a lot of sense as his title tbh" which means that you wrote the opposite of what you meant to say. you aren't very good at posting.
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52023990]lol, do you mean I am not very good at citing sources that meet with your narrative? in any case you wrote "Would make a lot of sense as his title tbh" which means that you wrote the opposite of what you meant to say. you aren't very good at posting.[/QUOTE] [citation needed] as per Wikipedia code implies that your posts require citations. Not sure how he wrote the opposite of what he meant to say.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52024052][citation needed] as per Wikipedia code implies that your posts require citations. Not sure how he wrote the opposite of what he meant to say.[/QUOTE] usual pettiness I have come to expect, have you got any constructive comments about the european debt crisis?? it reads like an A-Z of clusterfucks that isn't going to end any time soon.
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52023990]lol, do you mean I am not very good at citing sources that meet with your narrative? in any case you wrote "Would make a lot of sense as his title tbh" which means that you wrote the opposite of what you meant to say. you aren't very good at posting.[/QUOTE] ..what? In what way did it mean the opposite? None of it has anything about narrative to do either, you're just not very good at backing up your claims
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52024138]usual pettiness I have come to expect, have you got any constructive comments about the european debt crisis?? it reads like an A-Z of clusterfucks that isn't going to end any time soon.[/QUOTE] I don't really have the time for a discussion right now, just wanted to clear up what I thought he meant.
I think the whole world aught to be more biased towards brexit. The Torries, of all people, want more votes, and are getting sick of the BNP leeching their votes So a non-law abiding refurendum occured. The leave campaign actively lied to the british people The leave campaign won by 2% The leave campaign admit that they lied. The leave campaign admit that they have no idea what they're doing. The pound drops The government gets reshuffled. Nigel Farage wants no part in it. Trump is happy with us. The government wants to negotiate on it's terms, the EU on it's, a mexican fucking standoff occurs. Theresa May promises article 50 soon. At any point, could someone have grown a balls, used their brain, and went "Yeah, this process is a shitter, better not" An Icing on the cake is that the demographics suggest that Remain voters were educated,young, and had money (even though nobody who's educated and young has money). Whilst the people who voted to leave were more likely without qualifications, old, poor, probably in an area most dependent on EU trade, A BNP voter, Or UK Bohemian, if he's old enough to vote. The demographics are literally saying "The dumbest people (and Bohemian, who is most assuredly an intelligent individual) made this decision"
100 plus posts and yet not 1 single post actually mentioning the topic. the same old people making the same old accusations and a few very lame insults and choosing to ignore the citations that were requested. the jack pretty much confirming what I have been saying about bullshit rhetoric. we have left this behind because we are dumb: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_debt_crisis[/url] [url]http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/05/30/the-eu-is-only-an-episode-in-european-history-and-is-doomed-to-failure/[/url]
Honestly dawg, the BBC's issue here isn't that it's biased against brexit, the issue is that it's not outspoken about how fucking retarded the whole deal is. It should be telling us about how it isn't working,worth it, and how it's the biggest fucking kerfuffle since Tony Blair supported the Iraq war. The fact that we haven't had a vote of no confidence is a fucking miracle. The BBC is supposed to be Unbiased, Therefore it's supposed to tell us how it is. A negative view on brexit isn't unbiased, it's [I]how it is[/I]. You can't make a shit into a sundae. Well, you can, but only if you're trying to convince people with no taste, smell or sense, and it'd still be unethical.
[QUOTE=_Axel;52024504]I don't really have the time for a discussion right now, just wanted to clear up what I thought he meant.[/QUOTE] i thought so..
The Leave campaign did outright lie to the public though, their campaign was a piece of shit. And demographics did suggest that more remain voters were better educated. If the BBC wanted to be critical of Brexit and the leave campaign, they could of done a lot better
[QUOTE=The Jack;52024774]Honestly dawg, the BBC's issue here isn't that it's biased against brexit, the issue is that it's not outspoken about how fucking retarded the whole deal is. It should be telling us about how it isn't working,worth it, and how it's the biggest fucking kerfuffle since Tony Blair supported the Iraq war. The fact that we haven't had a vote of no confidence is a fucking miracle.[/QUOTE] it isn't working? and a vote of no confidence would have to come from a majority not a minority, and you have the neck to accuse others of being dumb. [editline]28th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Crooky14;52024783]The Leave campaign did outright lie to the public though, their campaign was a piece of shit. And demographics did suggest that more remain voters were better educated. If the BBC wanted to be critical of Brexit and the leave campaign, they could of done a lot better[/QUOTE] better educated people wouldn't write could of instead of could have. we can all play that game.
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52024803] better educated people wouldn't write could of instead of could have. we can all play that game.[/QUOTE] If you thought pedantics would help you in your argument, you thought wrong. (also I study English, you're talking shit*, and your grammar is bad here) [I]*"could of" is fine.[/I] [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting/Off topic/Grammar Nazi bullshit - If you really study English you'd you know how wrong your statement is" - Reagy))[/highlight]
to be honest, watching the BBC news at breakfast, I get the feeling they're biased towards brexit, at least when it comes to asking people in the street. reporter: "we're here in [place] that voted very slightly leave, let's ask some opinions" #1: "brexit iz gud" #2: "i like brexit" #3: "i don't know but i think it will be good" #4: "i was remain but now i like brexit lets go" #5: "i'm okay with it bu-" reporter: "as you can see here, everyone fully behind brexit!"
[QUOTE=The Jack;52024874]If you thought pedantics would help you in your argument, you thought wrong. (also I study English, you're talking shit*, and your grammar is bad here) [I]*"could of" is fine.[/I][/QUOTE] lol you are illiterate. [url]http://www.grammarerrors.com/grammar/could-of-would-of-should-of/[/url] [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting/Off topic/Grammar Nazi bullshit" - Reagy))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52024776]i thought so..[/QUOTE] Gotta spend some time doing other stuff than posting on an internet forum to succeed, you said it yourself mate.
[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52024803]it isn't working? and a vote of no confidence would have to come from a majority not a minority, and you have the neck to accuse others of being dumb. [editline]28th March 2017[/editline] better educated people wouldn't write could of instead of could have. we can all play that game.[/QUOTE] Great argument there! Pointing out a grammar mistake must mean you have superior knowledge and all criticisms of your arguments are irrelevant! /s stop posting lol
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.