UPDATED 2/27: Richard Gates Pleads Guilty to Conspiracy Against the United States
240 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;53164869][media]https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/968588347856826374[/media][/QUOTE]
I think it's telling just how cunning Trump's evident redirection tactics are in this whole case. The scope and nature of this investigation is much bigger than "Russian bots" at this point. Referring to that aspect of the case in such simple terms is misleading anyway. It's easy to build skepticism when you aren't truthful about the reality of the situation.
It's exhilarating to be alive during the exposure of what is looking to be the greatest criminal conspiracy ever executed in the United States, one that corrupted a political party at the national and potentially state level, swung a federal election and illegitimately elected a treasonously criminal candidate, and one that is attempting to discredit and disempower federal law enforcement and judicial process to facilitate their sloppy coverup.
This is a historic moment. Start journaling if you want to help the history books and documentaries that will be produced about this period of American/world history for decades to come.
[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;53164869][media]https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/968588347856826374[/media][/QUOTE]
lmao the overall design of that email feels like a scam, not to mention the fucking tiny trump face from twitter tacked on there
[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;53164869][media]https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/968588347856826374[/media][/QUOTE]
That looks like a phishing email.
Is this seriously legit?
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;53164939]It's exhilarating to be alive during the exposure of what is looking to be the greatest criminal conspiracy ever executed in the United States, one that corrupted a political party at the national and potentially state level, swung a federal election and illegitimately elected a treasonously criminal candidate, and one that is attempting to discredit and disempower federal law enforcement and judicial process to facilitate their sloppy coverup.
This is a historic moment. Start journaling if you want to help the history books and documentaries that will be produced about this period of American/world history for decades to come.[/QUOTE]
If the North Korea situation wasn't happening and if Trump wasn't halting any progress on our attempts to mitigate Climate Change, I'd be more inclined to agree with you on the "exhilarating" part. :v:
...but, yeah, these certainly are interesting and genuinely historic times regardless. I hope that this tribalistic mindset in conservative politics goes away at some point, so that when people write the history of the Trump presidency, future generations are actually inclined to listen and learn instead of just dismissing the factual recounting of Trump's presidency as being marred by "liberal bias".
[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;53164939]It's exhilarating to be alive during the exposure of what is looking to be the greatest criminal conspiracy ever executed in the United States, one that corrupted a political party at the national and potentially state level, swung a federal election and illegitimately elected a treasonously criminal candidate, and one that is attempting to discredit and disempower federal law enforcement and judicial process to facilitate their sloppy coverup.
This is a historic moment. Start journaling if you want to help the history books and documentaries that will be produced about this period of American/world history for decades to come.[/QUOTE]
It is a bit exhilarating, yes, but it's also more than a little horrifying, because there is still a very real possibility that Trumpism succeeds. The GOP leadership is running full steam ahead to overturn the rule of Constitutional law, as the success of Mueller's investigation would absolutely shatter their credibility, and ultimately fracture the party. This is a combined assault from the leadership of the Executive Branch, and the majority party of the legislative branch, working in cooperation to undermine, overrule, and and discredit the judiciary and investigative arms of the Executive. The stakes right now are as high as they can possibly be: the continued existence of our democracy as we know it. If Trumpism succeeds, I don't believe that we'll be able to come back from this as a country without bloodshed, and fear that bloodshed would be a tragic inevitability.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;53164970]It is a bit exhilarating, yes, but it's also more than a little horrifying, because there is still a very real possibility that Trumpism succeeds. The GOP leadership is running full steam ahead to overturn the rule of Constitutional law, as the success of Mueller's investigation would absolutely shatter their credibility, and ultimately fracture the party. This is a combined assault from the leadership of the Executive Branch, and the majority party of the legislative branch, working in cooperation to undermine, overrule, and and discredit the judiciary and investigative arms of the Executive. The stakes right now are as high as they can possibly be: the continued existence of our democracy as we know it. If Trumpism succeeds, I don't believe that we'll be able to come back from this as a country without bloodshed, and fear that bloodshed would be a tragic inevitability.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;53164964]If the North Korea situation wasn't happening and if Trump wasn't halting any progress on our attempts to mitigate Climate Change, I'd be more inclined to agree with you on the "exhilarating" part. :v:
...but, yeah, these certainly are interesting and genuinely historic times regardless. I hope that this tribalistic mindset in conservative politics goes away at some point, so that when people write the history of the Trump presidency, future generations are actually inclined to listen and learn instead of just dismissing the factual recounting of Trump's presidency as being marred by "liberal bias".[/QUOTE]
"May you live in interesting times" is a recipe for exhilarating times... but they're not necessarily good times. It's a curse for a reason. :v:
And, yes, BDA. We are witness to what amounts to a battle for American democracy.
The Republican Party's up to its elbows in shit and everything is on the line so they're just pushing deeper.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;53164970]If Trumpism succeeds, I don't believe that we'll be able to come back from this as a country without bloodshed, and fear that bloodshed would be a tragic inevitability.[/QUOTE]
Sadly though, considering your average American, I think this is about how much blood would be shed if Trump won
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvdth7bOPWY[/media]
you know something, i honestly expect that, in the event of a successful impeachment, Trump would barricade himself in the White House and refuse to step down
[QUOTE=EXPLOOOSIONS!;53165067]you know something, i honestly expect that, in the event of a successful impeachment, Trump would barricade himself in the White House and refuse to step down[/QUOTE]
That's probably the only way he's going to pull off getting a military parade to drive down Pennsylvania Ave.
Trump isn't going to go to prison. He'll almost certainly kill himself when he knows its over and he's done.
[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;53165126]Trump isn't going to go to prison. He'll almost certainly kill himself when he knows its over and he's done.[/QUOTE]
I think he's too egocentric to kill himself, honestly.
[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;53165126]Trump isn't going to go to prison. He'll almost certainly kill himself when he knows its over and he's done.[/QUOTE]
He's too much of a coward for that.
[QUOTE=Kiwi;53165161]Isn't this treason?
Looking up the law quickly and having a quick read at the summary it's the death penalty or no less then 5 years and never being able to hold office in the US government ever again.
That's grim. But and I must say with a [B][U]big if[/U][/B], [B][U]IF[/U][/B] Trump was the liar I'm speculating, and Gates pins it all on Trump with hardcore evidence. I'm safely going to say that Trump maybe charged with treason, with the death penalty. I'm not a law expert so please correct me on my speculation.
I'm asking a very big question to add to my very big speculation about the potential future of these events.
[editline]28th February 2018[/editline]
Djentlemen roasting. I love it.[/QUOTE]
Yes, the death penalty is entirely possible when dealing with a treason charge. The question here is whether or not a treason charge can technically be pursued. That Russia is committing acts of war against us is a verified fact, and that Trump is aiding and abetting their attacks for personal and political gain seems extremely likely now. If Mueller comes to bear with enough evidence to recommend charges against Trump on the grounds that he seems to be angling towards, then yes: Donald Trump will have committed treason against the United States, and could face the death penalty if charged with that.
The only real grey area there is [I]if[/I] he could be charged with treason under the strict legal definition of it. Despite the fact that Russia is committing acts of war against the US, and the rather obvious fact that this will have been treason in all practical senses, the US is [I]not[/I] officially at war with Russia, which could enable that slimy bastard to avoid treason charges on that technicality.
Frankly, however, this situation is wholly unprecedented. If the charges against Trump are proven, we would be facing an extraordinary legal situation, to say the least. Without precedent, a new precedent may be established, and just about anything may be on the table.
[QUOTE=Kiwi;53165161]Isn't this treason?
Looking up the law quickly and having a quick read at the summary it's the death penalty or no less then 5 years and never being able to hold office in the US government ever again.
That's grim. But and I must say with a [B][U]big if[/U][/B], [B][U]IF[/U][/B] Trump was the liar I'm speculating, and Gates pins it all on Trump with hardcore evidence. I'm safely going to say that Trump maybe charged with treason, with the death penalty. I'm not a law expert so please correct me on my speculation.
I'm asking a very big question to add to my very big speculation about the potential future of these events.
[/QUOTE]
The common talking point I've heard is, for something to count as treason by the definition of the law/constitution, we had to currently/already be at war with whoever the treasonous acts were being done for.
Since we weren't at war with Russia when Trump colluded with Russia and got assistance from the Kremlin, it won't count as treason in the context of the law/constitutional interpretation.
[B]EDIT:[/B] That being said, Trump avoiding any penalties of that level and instead getting imprisoned (hopefully for life) might be for the best. Lord only knows how crazies in our current political climate would try to turn Trump into a martyr persecuted by the deep state.
[QUOTE=Kiwi;53165204]Okay awesome. Thanks for clearing this up. What could be the potential charges be instead of treason?[/QUOTE]
Conspiracy against the United States perhaps? Obstruction of justice is a definite possibility as well.
[QUOTE=Kiwi;53165204]Okay awesome. Thanks for clearing this up. What could be the potential charges be instead of treason?[/QUOTE]
I definitely don't profess to be an expert and I was mainly quoting what I heard elsewhere, but I'm sure the money laundering, the obstruction of justice, the shady international doings, etc would still do him in. Plus, just because the collusion doesn't count as "treason", I'm sure that doesn't annul any culpability he had in being involved.
Word has it Mueller is looking to pursue both state and federal level charges. As POTUS, Trump can issue pardons for federal level charges but not state level charges (think back to the shady real estate dealings and alleged mafia connections Trump has in New York).
Trump might try to pardon himself of the federal charges, but if he does, that is basically uncharted waters and would probably cause a constitutional crisis.
[QUOTE=Kiwi;53165204]Okay awesome. Thanks for clearing this up. What could be the potential charges be instead of treason?[/QUOTE]
Just added a quick finishing thought to my above point, but basically: this situation has no real legal precedent. The President of the United States acting in a criminal conspiracy with a hostile foreign nation committing acts of war against us? I mean, [I]fuck.[/I] That is such an extreme and colossal situation that the courts may not be able to make a ruling based strictly on established legal precedent. A new precedent may have to be set, and an expanded legal definition of "Treason" may be a possibility.
Otherwise: we'd be looking at a litany of other charges, including Criminal Conspiracy, Conspiracy Against the United States, Conspiracy to Defraud the United States, Obstruction of Justice, Perjury of his oath of office, [I]many[/I] financial crimes, [I]many[/I] violations of election laws, violations of the Logan Act, lying to the FBI, and so on.
Either way: Trump would go to prison for the rest of his life. No doubt about it.
[QUOTE=Kiwi;53165219]Obstruction most certainly but looking into the interpretation of just conspiracy against the United States already covers Obstruction of Justice within the charge.
Again my speculations are only speculations. I suppose that this is what everyone is looking/hoping the outcome will be. It's REALISTIC but it's still a BIG IF.[/QUOTE]
That "Conspiracy" may include "Obstruction" doesn't mean that separate obstruction charges couldn't be filed [I]in addition[/I] to the conspiracy charges. I mean, I'm obviously no lawyer, but Mueller will hit Trump with every single criminal charge that he possibly can, and he will almost certainly have a [I]lot.[/I]
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;53165222]Just added a quick finishing thought to my above point, but basically: this situation has no real legal precedent. The President of the United States acting in a criminal conspiracy with a hostile foreign nation committing acts of war against us? I mean, [I]fuck.[/I] That is such an extreme and colossal situation that the courts may not be able to make a ruling based strictly on established legal precedent. A new precedent may have to be set, and an expanded legal definition of "Treason" may be a possibility.
Otherwise: we'd be looking at a litany of other charges, including Criminal Conspiracy, Conspiracy Against the United States, Conspiracy to Defraud the United States, Obstruction of Justice, Perjury of his oath of office, [I]many[/I] financial crimes, [I]many[/I] violations of election laws, violations of the Logan Act, lying to the FBI, and so on.
Either way: Trump would go to prison for the rest of his life. No doubt about it.[/QUOTE]
When all is said and done, I hope that the next Democrat in office is able to broaden the legal definition to be expanded to "preemptive" acts of Treason from parties we are not currently at war with.
As I said in my last post, I'm not saying that to advocate for anyone to get the death penalty, but rather because - as this election as shown - we need to take stuff like the Russian election meddling more seriously. We were very obviously caught with our pants down as a nation and need to plan for contingencies like this in the future. If anything, I'd even be down for reducing the death penalty to life time imprisonment - as I said, we don't want martyrs being made.
I feel like if Trump is executed for his crimes he would become a martyr, plus I don't believe in capital punishment. I can't wait to see Trump and co locked up for the rest of their lives.
Personally, I don't think charges against him will lead to the death penalty. It's been a long time since that has happened, and in that time attitudes towards the death penalty have changed. Even if he was convicted of treason, I think multiple life sentences are far more likely.
[QUOTE=Kiwi;53165249]Bad enough the dem's did a stupid recently [B]but this will break the back of the GOP potentially forever.[/B][/QUOTE]
I wouldn't count on that, given how tribalistic certain niches of the GOP have become under our current political climate, to the extent that they see "liberal" as an insult. Of course, not all Republicans are like this and many are sane/grounded... but, yeah, in terms of elected officials in the GOP standing up to Trump or doing anything to heal the partisan divide - they certainly aren't putting their best foot forward to heal the divide.
But, hey, those tax cuts and ObamaCare repeals sure were worth it, right?!? :downs:
I have a feeling Trump will either resign when the spotlight gets too hot, or nothing will happen cause these guys are so bought out they have might as well have price tags hanging on their ears.
When Trump gets yanked out of the White House, it's going to make those TRUMP bumper stickers a little awkward to have. That, and the MAGA hats, but those will probably be collectors items [del]like Nazi memorabilia[/del]
[QUOTE=Bob The Knob;53164478]I haven't really seen a 'gate' name catch on for this, some have been thrown around but the most common name I've seen is 'Trump-Russia'[/QUOTE]
i like Trump-Russia because this is so unprecedented, to call it a Gate or a Scandal or an Affair would be selling it short. history classes will talk about Watergate, the Iran-Contra Affair, and plain and simply Trump-Russia.
I can only imagine that Mueller will be well prepared for a potential constitutional crisis, hence the mix of federal and state charges (which Trump can't pardon). I'm not exactly sure what kind of jail time Trump would be looking at under such charges, but suffice to say they would be severe in their own right, not to mention grounds for impeachment.
It's pretty obvious by now that Mueller is closing in, and that Trump knows it. Trump is becoming more and more unhinged with each passing day. His Twitter feed alone suggest that his defenses are imploding, forcing him to fall back to more and more obvious nonsense-spouting. Back in 2016, we occasionally got glimpses of this rotten core peeking through the cracks of his tacky, overly-managed persona, in moments when his bullshit was exposed during debates and interviews and he did the only thing he knows how to do: repeat vague buzzwords and make up distractions. I daresay that before the end, we'll see this side of him again — fraudulent, desperate, and ultimately pitiful — exposed for all the world to see.
[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;53165126]Trump isn't going to go to prison. He'll almost certainly kill himself when he knows its over and he's done.[/QUOTE]
i think he's doomed too but let's not be melodramatic, we're still talking about a sitting president and i don't want to imagine anyone getting hurt in the process of the investigation
[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;53165218]Trump might try to pardon himself of the federal charges, but if he does, that is basically uncharted waters and would probably cause a constitutional crisis.[/QUOTE]
Those waters may be uncharted but I can't see any rational argument for anyone being able to pardon themselves. The only thing keeping me from saying there's no way Congress or the Supreme Court would accept that, is that they've spent my entire lifetime caring more about party loyalty than literally anything else. I'd hope that even so, they'd recognize a self-pardon for the seizure of absolute power that it is, but if they don't, expect an outright revolution, because there's no way the American people will stand for it.
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