[QUOTE=ilikecorn;42014342] The US isn't exactly "all for this"; as congress is demanding evidence before allowing assets to be used. Let's face it guys, not a god damned thing is going to happen, and it's for the best.[/QUOTE]
Even if Obama consulted Congress (he didn't for Libya), the War Powers Resolution allows deployments of up to 60 days without congressional approval - and the US appears to want a one-off strike
So what do you think is gonna happen here? Are we all gonna pull up a chair, get some popcorn and see how shit goes down?
[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;42014024]Why does it have be America and Britain that HAS to intervene, we sure as fuck are not the only country's that are capable of going in there and yet no one else ever wants to take the reigns.[/QUOTE]
But we pretty much are if you discount China and Russia. Although as one MP pointed out during the debate, why are we arming Saudi Arabia and Qatari to the teeth if they are unable to deal with this?
[editline]30th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;42014094]Obama is shooting himself in the foot..
I dont wanna be that guy either but we're probably going in alone..[/QUOTE]
I think France and Turkey are up for it, stop listening to purely American media. This has been well reported for the last week.
Yay! Now they can concentrate on Gibraltar which is their British territory. Instead of fighting for something you don't even own at least think of your own overseas territories.
[QUOTE=Matriax;42014119]Because we should be standing up on principle, defending international law, and not giving a shite about other countries too weak to help?
Oh, but that's us now. Too bloody scared to do anything. Worried about what might happen if we defend our principles against those who would break them.
What a weak position. Perhaps because we should be standing together as the first world to oppose atrocities like this?
We should have waited until evidence had come back on the use of these weapons, found out who did it, and then acted upon the evidence. Saying "we're not going to do anything regardless" is utterly, utterly spineless.[/QUOTE]
Personally I still think there will be a second (successful) vote if and when concrete evidence appears. A lot of the MPs seemed to only have issue with the lack of real evidence.
[editline]30th August 2013[/editline]
Also I wonder, as the media have drawn comparisons to Israel's actions. Do they seek approval for their one off strikes or do they just do it?
[QUOTE=Hell_Kyrone;42014538]Yay! Now they can concentrate on Gibraltar which is their British territory. Instead of fighting for something you don't even own at least think of your own overseas territories.[/QUOTE]
Because Gibraltar is totally a military issue
[QUOTE=Sableye;42013753]North Korea has had a nuclear shield from china for decades which has given them free reign to do what the fuck they want, now they have nukes and even china is thinking they're getting too big for their britches[/QUOTE]
North Korea doesn't have nukes capable of doing a damn thing.
[QUOTE=smurfy;42014557]Because Gibraltar is totally a military issue[/QUOTE]
Actually it is. Well more navy due to the incursions that happen in our waters. And since Spain consider it their waters they are now going to make bunkering illegal so there is going to be a huge incursion.
[QUOTE=Hell_Kyrone;42014538]Yay! Now they can concentrate on Gibraltar which is their British territory. Instead of fighting for something you don't even own at least think of your own overseas territories.[/QUOTE]
Yes, because sending three warships and a nuclear submarine halfway across the planet over a tiny conflict about fishing and commute charges is more important...
[QUOTE=Hell_Kyrone;42014538]Yay! Now they can concentrate on Gibraltar which is their British territory. Instead of fighting for something you don't even own at least think of your own overseas territories.[/QUOTE]
While we do have obligations to the British Territories, you're not going to be invaded by the Spanish, The falkands have more to worry about in that regard but even then that's not likely either.
[QUOTE=Hell_Kyrone;42014538]Yay! Now they can concentrate on Gibraltar which is their British territory. Instead of fighting for something you don't even own at least think of your own overseas territories.[/QUOTE]
Call us when Spain (you know a member of NATO and the EU) invades you.
[QUOTE=Lf751;42014607]Yes, because sending three warships and a nuclear submarine halfway across the planet over a tiny conflict about fishing and commute charges is more important...[/QUOTE]
It is more than that we are being bullied by Spain. And this is not a "tiny" conflict this has been happening for decades. We actually fear crossing the border because of spanish people terrorizing us. We are being taken away our rights to freely cross the border due to excessive queues and EU does nothing to help.
[IMG]http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/119683/119683,1324630404,9/stock-photo-a-crying-turkey-is-begging-not-to-kill-it-a-humor-joke-for-thanksgiving-91345481.jpg[/IMG]
Dont leave us england :(
[QUOTE=Hell_Kyrone;42014640]It is more than that we are being bullied by Spain. And this is not a "tiny" conflict this has been happening for decades. We actually fear crossing the border because of spanish people terrorizing us. We are being taken away our rights to freely cross the border due to excessive queues and EU does nothing to help.[/QUOTE]
Oh my god! bullied you say? Are those mean Spanish people calling you names?! Well we certainly can't spare any of our military to save those helpless families dying painful suffocating deaths from chemical weapons, Gibraltar is being bullied!!!
[QUOTE=Lf751;42014699]Oh my god! bullied you say? Are those mean Spanish people calling you names?! Well we certainly can't spare any of our military to save those helpless families dying painful suffocating deaths from chemical weapons, Gibraltar is being bullied!!![/QUOTE]
I don't mean that its a good thing that England is not taking action with Syria. I mean so many lives can be saved. However they decided not to help so might as well use their resources on another area.
[QUOTE=Hell_Kyrone;42014745]I don't mean that its a good thing that England is not taking action with Syria. I mean so many lives can be saved. However they decided not to help so might as well use their resources on another area.[/QUOTE]
You are not going to be invaded by the Spanish, it just aint gonna happen. make no mistake the British Government / People are on your side, but it's not a matter for military intervention and it never will be.
[QUOTE=Hell_Kyrone;42014745]I don't mean that its a good thing that England is not taking action with Syria. I mean so many lives can be saved. However they decided not to help so might as well use their resources on another area.[/QUOTE]
It's just the Spanish media drawing attention away from their massive debt. So you can sleep easy friend.
[QUOTE=Jsm;42014524]But we pretty much are if you discount China and Russia. Although as one MP pointed out during the debate, why are we arming Saudi Arabia and Qatari to the teeth if they are unable to deal with this?
[editline]30th August 2013[/editline]
I think France and Turkey are up for it, stop listening to purely American media. This has been well reported for the last week.[/QUOTE]
I have been listening to media from France, Britain, Russia, Turkey and China. American media is bullshit
[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;42014838]You are not going to be invaded by the Spanish, it just aint gonna happen. make no mistake the British Government / People are on your side, but it's not a matter for military intervention and it never will be.[/QUOTE]
I am not worried by an invasion. Don't you worry. However I worry about my freedom to move from one european country to another without being limited. I also worry that Spanish people are going around burning Gibraltarian cars. The British need to show that they are tired of this shit, that Gibraltar is not a scape goat for political problems in Spain and they won't stand for it.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;42014342]Because wasting tons of cash, man hours, and munitions to topple the assad regime, then allowing a deeply splintered rebellion to take over, so the rebels can fight themselves, killing more civilians, is totally better than just leaving them the fuck alone.[/QUOTE]
This is not about [I]fucking money[/I], you know there are some things more important than lining your pockets with gold. Man hours? What do you think the people in the military signed up for, to pot plants? You know when you sign up you become a government weapon, to do the country's will. If you don't agree, you don't fucking sign up. If you are a civilian and you don't agree, you're free to do that but you'd better get some better arguments.
We need to enforce the international law of armed conflict, because we said a number of years ago that we would. When people break it, we need swift reprisals, or we look weak and it happens again, and again and again.
[QUOTE=Hell_Kyrone;42014538]Yay! Now they can concentrate on Gibraltar which is their British territory. Instead of fighting for something you don't even own at least think of your own overseas territories.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War[/url]
If you get invaded, you can be pretty sure we'll steam over and open up a massive can of fuck you in the Spanish direction. However, [B]that won't happen.[/B]
[QUOTE=Coffee;42014594]North Korea doesn't have nukes capable of doing a damn thing.[/QUOTE]
They have the possibility of doing something, which is more than enough.
Especially if used defensively. I have no doubt NK would blow a nuke on their own territory if invaded.
At least you British guys are being smart and avoiding trouble. We can't seem to stay out of foreign affairs, especially when it involves war.
What ever happened to us striking them by Thursday
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;42015428]What ever happened to us striking them by Thursday[/QUOTE]
Something to do with the British government not being a [I]complete[/I] walkover any more. I honestly believe this is what held it all up. If Labour (the opposition!) hadn't called for the UK to hold back till after the UN inspectors finish (forcing this vote to be not what Cameron wanted) I think by now it would have happened.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;42015324]Actually, it IS about the "fucking" money, no amount of "good will" is going to pay for the weapons to be used, or the equipment to be used, its ALL about the fucking money, and right now, the lack their of. You must live in a fairy tale to think that at the end of the day, every one just does things because its nice, and the equipment manufacturers will just give away the proper supplies because its "for the right thing"
As for international law, syria didn't ratify a treaty banning chemical weapons, so they own them legally, and they didn't sign the 2nd protocol of the geneva convention, protecting civilians from internal conflict, as such the action is within the legal grey area. At least attempt to understand international law if you're going to claim it as a reason to send billions of dollars in resources to a shithole.[/QUOTE]
I don't remember mentioning good will, I remember saying that this was about a million times more important than money. Imagine you got gassed, ad the government told you it wasn't going to do anything about it because of "money". Personally, I'd like to think that if my civil rights got shat through a binbag the government might have the bollocks to stand up for me. The same should apply to a 3rd world nation which is currently tearing itself to pieces in civil war, we have a responsibility to these people.
Your second point is ridiculous. When did I say that manufacturers would give free equipment out? Stop straw manning.
And oh right, because their government didn't sign up to the treaty they're good as gold to gas their own citizens to hell and back. yeah, you're right, fuck 'em. Back to the playstation, not my problem!
[QUOTE=Jsm;42013429]So we should step back and let someone kill their own citizens? If Assad (assuming the JIC intelligence isn't along the lines of the 45 minute claim) is allowed to use chemical weapons on a small scale he will no doubt use them to kill many more people who disagree with him.[/QUOTE]
If you're so pissed about it now why didn't you kick up a fuss earlier? There's nothing to be gained by joining the fray now. Just another few hundred folded flags.
[editline]30th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=RainbowStalin;42013554]Hopefully someone does something or we're basically sending the message to the middle east that the Geneva convention doesn't mean shit break out yer chemical weapons and get gassing because we can't be bothered to stop you.[/QUOTE]
No it doesn't. It means we're not irrational one-upsmen who have to justify things to ourselves by death-or-glory leaping into the fray and cockslapping people. It means we're rational and are sticking before we shoot.
[QUOTE=smurfy;42013736]He said Parliament was 'reflecting the views of the British people'[/QUOTE]
Parliament has been doing a bang up job of that before.
How many years has Syria been in the shit with everyone saying "don't intervene, let them solve their own conflicts"?
Now, years later, after both sides have been turned into bloodthirsty extremist veterans of genocide and there's no possible native foothold for foreign intervention in the area and no possibility of restoring peace in a timely manner, [I]now[/I] we care.
And not even because one of the genocidal fuckwits decided to kill innocent people, that's been happening since the beginning of the goddamn war. No, because they killed innocent people with a weapon we don't like.
I understand the argument that we need to enforce international law. But on the other hand, how in the name of living fuck do you plan on doing that if we'll only do so once we've passed the point where intervention [I]won't help anyone?[/I]
Some of you actually think the only reason a Western country may intervene is because people are getting gassed and we have to do what's "right" and "honorable", and not because it'd be a wasted opportunity to stick a big fat middle finger to Russia and establish a pro-West government, further bolstering Western influence in the Middle-East.
It's adorable how naive some of you are.
The Geneva Conventions mean jack fucking shit, when in places like Africa and Asia armies are slaughtering all willy-nilly by the tens of thousands and nobody really cares anymore. I don't see anyone intervening in that, because there is nothing to be gained from un-fucking Africa's mess or saving some civilians in North-West Pakistan.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42019019]How many years has Syria been in the shit with everyone saying "don't intervene, let them solve their own conflicts"?
Now, years later, after both sides have been turned into bloodthirsty extremist veterans of genocide and there's no possible native foothold for foreign intervention in the area and no possibility of restoring peace in a timely manner, [I]now[/I] we care.
And not even because one of the genocidal fuckwits decided to kill innocent people, that's been happening since the beginning of the goddamn war. No, because they killed innocent people with a weapon we don't like.[/QUOTE]
It's not 'a weapon we don't like', it's a weapon that deliberately kills thousands of people in agony and causes damage and destruction for years to come. It is indiscriminate and being used directly against innocent civilians. That is outright banned under international law. We've stepped in when this was done using conventional weapons, too, just look at the UN response to the Srebrenica Massacre during the Serbian Crisis.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42019019]I understand the argument that we need to enforce international law. But on the other hand, how in the name of living fuck do you plan on doing that if we'll only do so once we've passed the point where intervention [I]won't help anyone?[/I][/QUOTE]
I'm sure the Syrian people getting gassed by their own government would love to hear the West say 'sorry, fighting the regime that's trying to kill you can't possibly help you, so just try to avoid the gas'.
Well, congrats to the UK on reducing themselves to 'angry letter police' like the UN stereotype. What's it going to take for them to start caring about international law? I mean if a dictator gassing his own civilians isn't cause to get involved, what is?
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