Pravyi Sektor starts firefight with local police and political parties in Munkács, Ukraine - Polidicks

[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;48194300]Yes yes Ukrainian Nazis. [url]http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.nl/2014/11/nazis-in-azov-battalion.html[/url] There is a possibility that Nazi flag was edited into the photo after it was taken, though it was uploaded by a nationalistic member of Azov who is an open Nazi, so that can explain why this picture spread so far. It's been edited over and over again and I don't see it honestly as them being Nazi's, it looks like they just took the picture for fun. Now on the other side of the conflict, the exact same symbolism and racism exists. [url]http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/06/nazis-are-core-of-russias-hybrid-army.html[/url] I gotta hand it to Gennady Dubovoy. Without him, there wouldn't be an interesting chronological timeline from the Russian side. [url]https://vk.com/id205292010?z=photo205292010_365034963%2Falbum205292010_216213559%2Frev[/url] Here is his photo album of a Neo-Nazi ritual. And another note is this is the same unit of the Neo-Nazi dog killer from Moscow. [img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHJTRY-UUAESgIv.jpg:large[/img] Both sides are stepped in shit. It's just they now want to fight over the shade of shit. What would be great is if both sides just said fuck it, because in the end what is the fighting between Ukraine and Russia really going to benefit? No one.[/QUOTE] The posts above were discussing radicals on the ukrainian side (or maybe not on the ukrainian side since they're shooting police and insighting revolution). Most of us accept that there are radicals on the rebel side and it makes no real difference to the presence of baddies on the ukrainian side.

Wow, yea those guys aren't winning any morality contests. Well then what the hell do you idiots defending these guys have to say?

holy shit, is this the resurgence of whataboutism? has the debate finally gone full circle?

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48194361]"They are doing it too" doesnt deny disprove pravy sektor being a neo nazi organisation.[/QUOTE] Way to miss what I said. I never said they weren't. [editline]13th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=mdeceiver79;48194387]The posts above were discussing radicals on the ukrainian side (or maybe not on the ukrainian side since they're shooting police and insighting revolution). Most of us accept that there are radicals on the rebel side and it makes no real difference to the presence of baddies on the ukrainian side.[/QUOTE] And all I was doing is showing the Russian side USES THE SAME IMAGERY, RACISM, ETC as the Ukrainian Neo-Nazi's, yet where is the discussion to reign in the Russian Neo-Nazi's?

Russian neo nazis aren't trying to fuck up their own country by trying to get rid of the government or waging war against its police officers. the thread is about Ukrainian neo nazis trying to fuck shit up in their country, dont just turn around and say 'b-but Russia has nazis too!!'

[QUOTE=Araknid;48194631]Russian neo nazis aren't trying to fuck up their own country by trying to get rid of the government or waging war against its police officers. the thread is about Ukrainian neo nazis trying to fuck shit up in their country, dont just turn around and say 'b-but Russia has nazis too!!'[/QUOTE] How can you fuckers be ignorant to the fact that I'm saying NEO NAZIS ON ANY SIDE IS A BAD FUCKING IDEA. What's to stop the Russian Neo Nazi's, now with guns/tanks/APC's/etc thanks to the Russian Federation, from crossing the RF border and doing what they're doing in Ukraine [i]To Russia[/i]. I mean my wording is pretty clear to the fact that I don't like Neo-Nazi's, and that I have distaste for both sides. What is happening to Ukraine with their Neo-Nazi's can just as equally happen in Russia because of THEIR Neo-Nazi's.

Trying to change topic back to the original one - Do you guys think it would be possible for the government to dismantle the various militias and integrate those assets into the official ukrainian army/police/interior ministry? would the leaders of those groups and supporting oligarchs and politicians be opposed to such a move since it would diminish their influence. Oleh Lyashko being an example of one such guy with political ambitions and what is effectively a private army of thugs.

Remove Nationalists from power over these militias, incorporate these militias into the National Guard, and because of incorporation, remove any and all Nazi/Neo-Nazi imagery and punish individuals for openly displaying Nationalistic/Neo-Nazi imagery.

[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;48194664] -snipped this part- What is happening to Ukraine with their Neo-Nazi's can just as equally happen in Russia because of THEIR Neo-Nazi's.[/QUOTE] This is true, something one of the Russian posters said a while ago is if Putin stopped being in power then some of the other potential candidates are nationalist assholes with links to the various neo-nazi/neo-soviet/politically confused violent people groups. So the loss of Putin might actually make Russia a more volatile and dangerous country.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;48194679]Trying to change topic back to the original one - Do you guys think it would be possible for the government to dismantle the various militias and integrate those assets into the official ukrainian army/police/interior ministry? would the leaders of those groups and supporting oligarchs and politicians be opposed to such a move since it would diminish their influence. Oleh Lyashko being an example of one such guy with political ambitions and what is effectively a private army of thugs.[/QUOTE] Difficult with some groups as some right sector have said that they do not wish to relinquish their arms, not to mention you have to be careful with criminals and shit you wouldnt want in positions of power.

[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;48194702]Remove Nationalists from power over these militias, incorporate these militias into the National Guard, and because of incorporation, remove any and all Nazi/Neo-Nazi imagery and punish individuals for openly displaying Nationalistic/Neo-Nazi imagery.[/QUOTE] I think rather than punish them I would make them embarassed. Show them the effect them having those banners and swastikas is having. Tell them the west won't support them and that the EU will shun any country with nazis. If the soldiers truely love ukraine they will pick ukraine over 1930s-1940s bad guy iconography. Punishing them would perhaps make them rally against it, force them to be further seperated from the state and become more radical playing into the hands of the fringe "politicans"

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;48194735]I think rather than punish them I would make them embarassed. Show them the effect them having those banners and swastikas is having. Tell them the west won't support them and that the EU will shun any country with nazis. If the soldiers truely love ukraine they will pick ukraine over 1930s-1940s bad guy iconography. Punishing them would perhaps make them rally against it, force them to be further seperated from the state and become more radical playing into the hands of the fringe "politicans"[/QUOTE] No, because they're now a part of the professional military, they're expected to preform to professional military standards. Punish members of these militia's who openly display Neo-Nazi imagery/belief along with making them know how much this imagery has opposite effects on possible allies. I mean Azov alone made the US say "Hey, fuck these guys, we're not training White Supremacists."

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48189052] Ukrainian media already deemed pravy sektor "funded by Putin". [/QUOTE] So, basically, Putin-funded Praviy Sektor battles against Ukrainian government, which battles with Putin-funded rebels, who went to war because PravSektor got rid of Putin-funded Yanukovich government. Putin vs Putin.

[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;48194773]No, because they're now a part of the professional military, they're expected to preform to professional military standards. Punish members of these militia's who openly display Neo-Nazi imagery/belief along with making them know how much this imagery has opposite effects on possible allies. I mean Azov alone made the US say "Hey, fuck these guys, we're not training White Supremacists."[/QUOTE] hmm you're right, it would need enforcing, its just enforcing might drive them away. I think its a rock and a hard place. Reigning in the groups/telling the members what to do might cause them to go full rebel/go against the government. Doing nothing is just leaving the problem till later and risking them growing stronger. Are there any similar situations which have happened in other countries recently where a government has had to deal with radical groups with questionable loyalty?

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;48194805]Are there any similar situations which have happened in other [B]countries recently where a government has had to deal with radical groups with questionable loyalty?[/B][/QUOTE] I can't tell if this is a joke or you're unintentionally being ironic. You can say Ukraine and Russia concerning their Neo-Nazi's. You can also say the groups the US is training in Syria to fight Assad AND ISIS might have questionable loyalty, along with the Kurds of Iraq/Syria/Turkey.

Regardless of whether the nazi flag is edited in or not (it doesn't seem so to me), they still use plenty of other Nazi symbolism like the wulfsangel and black sun, and openly admonish Nazi collaborators. There's still other examples of them using the actual swastika, whether German TV reporting them on Azov helmets, or just [url=http://www.liguedefensejuive.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/ukraine1.jpg]this[/url]. It's interesting to note though, when it comes to the Russian far-right how many of them are fighting for Right Sector/Azov/etc. and the number of Russian nazi demonstrations of solidarity with Ukraine. They get [url=http://ukrainiancrusade.blogspot.com/2014/12/ukraine-and-european-nationalists.html]touted[/url] a lot by the Ukrainian far-right and Azov battalion. There's a fundamental split in the Russian nazis over Ukraine, as well as all European fascists and white nationalists. With nazis among the separatists, it's true but I wouldn't say the two sides are equal, but they are both shit sure. Still this whole conflict started with Ukrainian nationalists threatening the East and unlike the West, Donbass is politically moderate, and the separatists themselves are a hodge podge mix from far-left to far-right to that are unattached to any state (whereas Svoboda is a political ally of the West Ukrainian parties, Yarosh is an army advisor, Kolomoisky funds Azov which is attached to the Ukrainian Interior Ministry, the co-founder of Svoboda and Kommandant of Maidan as National Security Chief helped shape the national guard and the volunteer militias, etc.) Yea they're both shit but, one is slightly more shit for seizing the state and trying to force its way on parts of the country that don't want it, places which have no history of being far-right. So, I can't honestly say they're equal in terms of fascism, but I'd agree the whole situation is fucked.

Conscript, seriously, you like to say these Neo Nazi's "seized the state." Right Sector got 1% of the vote. Svoboda got 4.7% of the vote. The only Far Right party that received any kind of support was the Radical Party of Oleh Lyashko with 7.4% of the vote. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2014#Results[/url] And you like to go on about the failed proposal to make Ukrainian the only language of Ukraine. [url]http://tass.ru/en/world/721537[/url] [quote=ITAR TASS]SIMFEROPOL, March 01. /ITAR-TASS/. Ukraine’s parliament-appointed acting president, Aleksandr Turchinov, has promised that he will not enact the parliament’s decision to cancel the law on languages, Turchinov’s representative in the Crimea, Sergei Kunitsin, said on the ATR television channel. “Turchinov has been persuaded to veto the law on languages,” Kunitsin said, adding that a different bill would be proposed instead. On February 27, Turchinov ordered creating a working group to urgently draft a new law on language. He said the law would accommodate the interests of both eastern and western Ukraine and of all ethnic groups and minorities. Earlier, the European parliament demanded the Ukrainian authorities should protect the opportunity for people to use the Russian language. Its members urged the Ukrainian parliament to observe the rights of minorities and to ensure the freedom to use Russian and other minority languages.[/quote] Another false, made up fear. All I get whenever you make a post is that people in these regions are fearful for nothing other than made up bullshit.

I didnt say neo-nazis seized the state, I said Ukrainian nationalists did. West Ukraine captured political power and bases its whole platform on Ukrainian nationalism, which has a keystone fascist past kept alive by fringe elements sponsored and used by the center. When the 'moderates' are defined by Yushenko, who declared Bandera and Shukhevych (but not a leftist like Makhno) heroes of Ukraine, when during a parliamentary monopoly all west Ukraine MPs (including poroshenko) vote to repeal the language law, when Maidan had the co founder of svoboda as 'Kommandant' and had a huge rally during the riots commemorating Bandera's birthday, when open svoboda members staff 6 cabinet positions in the interim government, and when the whole thing is about bringing in the EU/NATO against half the country's wishes, I don't think you get to lecture East Ukraine on how they should react. Also, the results of svoboda are meaningless in a vacuum when you can demonstrate 1) svoboda's base was split in 2014 2) it won a significant plurality (30-40%) of the parliamentary vote in places like Lviv and Ternopil oblast in 2012 which correlates with nationalist anger over the language law of that year (and also these are the same places Maidan would be the most radical, banning parties and looting police armories, etc) 3) Svoboda was disproportionately rewarded with several cabinet positions including national security chief, which was used to usher in the co-founder's 'maidan self defense' militias into the national guard. There is no need to fabricate anything when it comes to West Ukraine. [B]There is only the very real possibility that its monopoly on power is incompatible with Ukraine having the territories only integrated in the Soviet era[/b], the same ones that fought Ukrainian nationalism during the civil war. The Eastern people won't accept it, and Russia won't either.

I come back to the thread and people are still clueless in what Right Sector is. They're a merger of different nationalist parties and yes that includes neo-nazi's. But as a whole you can't call them a neo nazi organisation. So, please don't be an idiot. [QUOTE=purvisdavid1;48185507]I don't know if this is a joke or something, considering Ghost656's Flagdog shows Portugal?[/QUOTE] Yeah I'm just on a vacation.

You know what, I really don't mind the adoption of Nazi symbolism on the Ukrainian side when, symbolically, that flag represents the last time in history before now when there were men willing to FIGHT Russia to the death.

[QUOTE=certified;48197671]You know what, I really don't mind the adoption of Nazi symbolism on the Ukrainian side when, symbolically, that flag represents the last time in history before now when there were men willing to FIGHT Russia to the death.[/QUOTE] What the sick logic is this.

[QUOTE=certified;48197671]You know what, I really don't mind the adoption of Nazi symbolism on the Ukrainian side when, symbolically, that flag represents the last time in history before now when there were men willing to FIGHT Russia to the death.[/QUOTE] What the hell. the nazi flag also represents a massive genocide and a brutal war where the nazi flag represented aggression and oppression.

[QUOTE=DoktorAkcel;48194780]So, basically, Putin-funded Praviy Sektor battles against Ukrainian government, which battles with Putin-funded rebels, who went to war because PravSektor got rid of Putin-funded Yanukovich government. Putin vs Putin.[/QUOTE] So basically: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm1U5E44W90[/media] 2m10s in

[QUOTE=certified;48197671]You know what, I really don't mind the adoption of Nazi symbolism on the Ukrainian side when, symbolically, that flag represents the last time in history before now when there were men willing to FIGHT Russia to the death.[/QUOTE] :| No. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;48198560]:| No. Two wrongs don't make a right.[/QUOTE] Quit being such a liberal. We must complete the anti-bolshevik crusade that was started, and destroy the Soviet mentality that grips east slavs and threatens the European project. Russia is feeble, NATO is now in a position to accomplish the old geopolitical goals of Europe regarding the East that the nationalists from Bismarck to Pilsudski to Hitler outlined. Ukraine is key to the designs, as all three noted rending it from east slavic civilization will forever destroy the Eastern threat to the West, and neither the Asiatic barbarians nor communism will ever trouble us again. Should we fail to subdue Russia in this post cold war end of history, we will never see the opportunity again.

[QUOTE=certified;48197671]You know what, I really don't mind the adoption of Nazi symbolism on the Ukrainian side when, symbolically, that flag represents the last time in history before now when there were men willing to FIGHT Russia to the death.[/QUOTE] Dude... these men killed Americans too and would without doubt exterminate US population given the chance. Jesus chist this is the most pointlessly russohphobic post I have ever seen.

[QUOTE=certified;48197671]You know what, I really don't mind the adoption of Nazi symbolism on the Ukrainian side when, symbolically, that flag represents the last time in history before now when there were men willing to FIGHT Russia to the death.[/QUOTE] living up to your title i see

[QUOTE=certified;48197671]You know what, I really don't mind the adoption of Nazi symbolism on the Ukrainian side when, symbolically, that flag represents the last time in history before now when there were men willing to FIGHT Russia to the death.[/QUOTE] Then what? We consider ISIS as good guys because they kill people we don't like?

[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;48194702]Remove Nationalists from power over these militias, incorporate these militias into the National Guard, and because of incorporation, remove any and all Nazi/Neo-Nazi imagery and punish individuals for openly displaying Nationalistic/Neo-Nazi imagery.[/QUOTE] A power grab and censorship. You would fit in well in today's political clusterfuck.

[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;48194842]I can't tell if this is a joke or you're unintentionally being ironic. You can say Ukraine and Russia concerning their Neo-Nazi's. You can also say the groups the US is training in Syria to fight Assad AND ISIS might have questionable loyalty, along with the Kurds of Iraq/Syria/Turkey.[/QUOTE] Sorry for late reply. What I meant was a government having an "ally" to fight the same cause but that "ally's" aims are ultimately to become the government or exercise more power over the government and that "ally" is building support, influence and power every day. The kurds and the iraqi government might be an example but the ISIS and Assad example was wrong since the US is helping one of the sides but there is 0% risk of one of the sides they helped actually taking over the US. Sorry I guess I was ambiguous. [editline]14th July 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Faunze;48201448]A power grab and censorship. You would fit in well in today's political clusterfuck.[/QUOTE] Tricky thing really. Give them the freedom and risk them growing in power/making potential allies think twice before helping you. Take the freedom away, piss them off and get accused (rightly so) of censorship. At what point does security become more important than freedom?