Suicide Squad's Cara Delevingne: 'Superhero Movies Are Totally Sexist'
289 replies, posted
Actually it's incredibly rare to see the main character outright cry in front of a bad guy, be they male or female, in any form of media. When it's some random dude who's not the main character they'll cry like a bitch but typically speaking the protagonist won't cry for no reason.
And now you're broadening the term from crying to fear/distress, make up your mind god damn it
First male superheroes don't cry. Then they don't cry because of their own failure. Then they don't cry for fear of their own safety. Look at those goal posts fly by.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;48074046][B]My whole point is that Batgirl crying over being helpless for her own safety is something that pretty much no other "superhero", male or female, goes through.[/B] Disregarding ones own safety is almost universal in superheroes. So when Batman cries over the loss of his parents, or cries because of someone else's suffering, that's not the same thing.
Listing a bunch of weaknesses that are completely different from what I'm talking about (fear for one's own safety) doesn't disprove my point at all.
[editline]28th June 2015[/editline]
It can be argued that, but that's completely irrelevant to the point I'm making.[/QUOTE]
I never understood this argument. It seems that you want superheroes to cope with everything the same way? But, that's not how people function. We don't all react the same way in various situations.
You'r right that Batman wouldn't cry because he was captured, but as others have already stated, Batman is pretty much psychotic, and has spend his entire life dedicated to perfecting himself so that he never will be helpless like when he couldn't save his parents as a child, something that continiously haunts him and fucks with him psychologically.
Batgirl, on the other hand, is more human than Batman is. Ignore the fact that she didn't spend her entire life isolating herself to perfect her crimefighting abilities like B-man, she actually happens to be more relatable to the audience. She has family, friends, a [U]life[/U]... that is, she has [I]something to lose[/I], unlike B-man. Her crying in terror at being captured by any of the homicidal maniacs she faces makes [I]sense[/I]! She is a regular person using her abilities to make a difference. And guess what? She still overcomes all the adversity she meets and becomes stronger because of it. Despite not having spend her life in pursuit of justice like Batman, she is still considered as capable as the dark knight, even by the man himself. She is respected and treated equally by Batman.
It seems to me that what you really want is for Batgirl to essentially be Batman with tits. The same character; same strengths, same weaknesses. But that would be doing a disservice, not only to the audience who would be robbed of interesting, relatable characters that are varied, but also to the authors intelligence and abilities to create interesting narratives, and last but not least, it's a disservice to minorities everywhere to simply recreate the same hero over and over again with no disregard for that characters background, race, sex or gender since that is a part of who they are, and that would insinuate that there is only one type of character that we can create stories about, one character that must always excipit the best qualities of all of humanity constantly.
If that was to happen, I think we would lose something far, FAR more important than a few critiques respect for an industry they don't really care about.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;48074199]First male superheroes don't cry. Then they don't cry because of their own failure. Then they don't cry for fear of their own safety. Look at those goal posts fly by.[/QUOTE]
Point at where I said that "male superheroes don't cry" without any other qualifiers.
You are literally making up goal posts so you can claim that I moved them.
so wait if batgirl is the only superhero, male or female, to cry over her own helplessness in the face of adversity, then what is the problem? i thought that it was an example of an epidemic of female weakness in comics but if she's the only example then that's not really endemic, is it
well then it looks like i misinterpreted what the argument is about
[QUOTE=Muggi;48074207]I never understood this argument. It seems that you want superheroes to cope with everything the same way? But, that's not how people function. We don't all react the same way in various situations.
You'r right that Batman wouldn't cry because he was captured, but as others have already stated, Batman is pretty much psychotic, and has spend his entire life dedicated to perfecting himself so that he never will be helpless like when he couldn't save his parents as a child, something that continiously haunts him and fucks with him psychologically.
Batgirl, on the other hand, is more human than Batman is. Ignore the fact that she didn't spend her entire life isolating herself to perfect her crimefighting abilities like B-man, she actually happens to be more relatable to the audience. She has family, friends, a [U]life[/U]... that is, she has [I]something to lose[/I], unlike B-man. Her crying in terror at being captured by any of the homicidal maniacs she faces makes [I]sense[/I]! She is a regular person using her abilities to make a difference. And guess what? She still overcomes all the adversity she meets and becomes stronger because of it. Despite not having spend her life in pursuit of justice like Batman, she is still considered as capable as the dark knight, even by the man himself. She is respected and treated equally by Batman.
It seems to me that what you really want is for Batgirl to essentially be Batman with tits. The same character; same strengths, same weaknesses. But that would be doing a disservice, not only to the audience who would be robbed of interesting, relatable characters that are varied, but also to the authors intelligence and abilities to create interesting narratives, and last but not least, it's a disservice to minorities everywhere to simply recreate the same hero over and over again with no disregard for that characters background, race, sex or gender since that is a part of who they are, and that would insinuate that there is only one type of character that we can create stories about, one character that must always excipit the best qualities of all of humanity constantly.
If that was to happen, I think we would lose something far, FAR more important than a few critiques respect for an industry they don't really care about.[/QUOTE]
People are making a lot of assumptions about my opinions about the Batgirl variant and about Batgirl in general.
The only thing I'm arguing against is the idea that Batman has been in the same scenario, and even you admitted he hasn't. You can argue against an argument and still be on that person's side about a controversial issue.
[editline]28th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;48074251]so wait if batgirl is the only superhero, male or female, to cry over her own helplessness in the face of adversity, then what is the problem? i thought that it was an example of an epidemic of female weakness in comics but if she's the only example then that's not really endemic, is it[/QUOTE]
Again I'm not SAYING anything about sexism in the industry. I'm just trying to demonstrate that a specific argument isn't valid. I'm not saying the side behind that argument is wrong about the state of sexism in comic books, or about whether the variant cover is bad or not.
You haven't been able to make a point that wasn't disproven already without fucking around with it to make it sound right when people have proved it was wrong, which immediately makes you completely wrong because you're not able to formulate a point that makes sense.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;48074259]
Again I'm not SAYING anything about sexism in the industry. I'm just trying to demonstrate that a specific argument isn't valid. I'm not saying the side behind that argument is wrong about the state of sexism in comic books, or about whether the variant cover is bad or not.[/QUOTE]
yep, got that from this post
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48074277]You haven't been able to make a point that wasn't disproven already without fucking around with it to make it sound right when people have proved it was wrong, which immediately makes you completely wrong because you're not able to formulate a point that makes sense.[/QUOTE]
You haven't been able to disprove my point without making up goalposts for me to have supposedly moved, or saying something along the lines of "your point is invalid because I can't think of an example that disproves it and that proves that it's too specific"
[editline]28th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;48074280]yep, got that from this post[/QUOTE]
If I outright say "I'm not against the variant cover and I don't think that sexism is a big problem in the comic book industry" will that be enough for you?
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;48073538]Because they were wrong.
Batman has never emotionally broken down solely because of his own helplessness. He's been put in helpless situations before, he's broken down because of the plight of OTHERS before, but neither he nor Dick Grayson nor [b]pretty much any male superhero that isn't a child has been driven to tears from their own helplessness[/b] that didn't involve someone else's plight or suffering. That's considered a sign of weakness. Batgirl doing that is a sign that she isn't as strong as Batman.
There are plenty of arguments you can make about the validity of that cover but this isn't one of them.[/QUOTE]
I'm pointing at where you said male super heroes don't cry.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;48074259]People are making a lot of assumptions about my opinions about the Batgirl variant and about Batgirl in general.
[B]The only thing I'm arguing against is the idea that Batman has been in the same scenario, and even you admitted he hasn't.[/B] You can argue against an argument and still be on that person's side about a controversial issue.
[editline]28th June 2015[/editline]
Again I'm not SAYING anything about sexism in the industry. I'm just trying to demonstrate that a specific argument isn't valid. I'm not saying the side behind that argument is wrong about the state of sexism in comic books, or about whether the variant cover is bad or not.[/QUOTE]
He HAS been in the same situation, he just coped with it differently than Batgirl or any other hero would becuase he is a unique character with his own charateristics. Just like Batgirl is her own unique character that just so happens to be part of the Bat family.
THAT is the point I'm making.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;48074239]Point at where I said that "male superheroes don't cry" without any other qualifiers.
You are literally making up goal posts so you can claim that I moved them.[/QUOTE]
You literally said Batman has never been in the same situation as Batgirl (helpless and crying) and that no male super hero would be shown that way. You then followed that by saying Dick Greyson and any other male super hero wouldn't be shown like that.
[quote=You on the last page][B]Batman has never emotionally broken down solely because of his own helplessness. [/B]He's been put in helpless situations before, he's broken down because of the plight of OTHERS before, but [B]neither he nor Dick Grayson nor pretty much any male superhero that isn't a child has been driven to tears from their own helplessness[/B] that didn't involve someone else's plight or suffering. That's considered a sign of weakness. Batgirl doing that is a sign that she isn't as strong as Batman.[/quote]
Which you then changed to he has only cried because he lost something (his parents - failure). Which you then changed to "almost every superhero never fears for their own safety". So it was apparently a problem when Batgirl acted like a human being.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;48074307]
If I outright say "I'm not against the variant cover and I don't think that sexism is a big problem in the comic book industry" will that be enough for you?[/QUOTE]
i'd missed part of the convo and didn't realize that until after my post but if you want to say that you're welcome to
Just wanna clear up, reading through Helix Snake's posts, he never really had any goalposts other than "No hero has broken down because of their own helplessness (i.e. inability to save themselves)."
[QUOTE=LondierX;48074393]Just wanna clear up, reading through Helix Snake's posts, he never really had any goalposts other than "No hero has broken down because of their own helplessness (i.e. inability to save themselves)."[/QUOTE]
Which he is wrong about, has been told he's wrong about, has been given proof he's wrong about and he still keeps repeating it. He just does it in such a poor way that he keeps rewording it until people give up.
[QUOTE=LondierX;48074393]Just wanna clear up, reading through Helix Snake's posts, he never really had any goalposts other than "No hero has broken down because of their own helplessness (i.e. inability to save themselves)."[/QUOTE]
His original point was that Batgirl was weaker than Batman because Batgirl cried over her own safety and Batman didn't (followed by a list of arbitrary conditions that made counter-arguments invalid).
It's a stupid point to begin with.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48074413]His original point was that Batgirl was weaker than Batman because Batgirl cried over her own safety and Batman didn't.
It's a stupid point to begin with.[/QUOTE]
Didn't you know? Your worth as a human being is being measuerd against the amount of tears you have shed in your life, no matter the context.
So sayeth our lord and saviour, Conan the barbarian.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48074413]His original point was that Batgirl was weaker than Batman because Batgirl cried over her own safety and Batman didn't (followed by a list of arbitrary conditions that made counter-arguments invalid).
It's a stupid point to begin with.[/QUOTE]
There were no "arbitrary conditions" beyond what you just said, I was explaining what I was saying to stop you from posting examples that clearly didn't apply, and it still didn't stop you.
You clearly ruled out the character being a child or the crying being about someone else in any situation.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;48073538]Because they were wrong.
Batman has never emotionally broken down solely because of his own helplessness. He's been put in helpless situations before, he's broken down because of the plight of OTHERS before, but neither he nor Dick Grayson nor pretty much any male superhero [B]that isn't a child has been driven to tears from their own helplessness that didn't involve someone else's plight or suffering.[/B] That's considered a sign of weakness. Batgirl doing that is a sign that she isn't as strong as Batman.
There are plenty of arguments you can make about the validity of that cover but this isn't one of them.[/QUOTE]
"Batgirl's very specific situation only applied to Batgirl and that makes her weak" is not a good point.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48074530]You clearly ruled out the character being a child or the crying being about someone else in any situation.[/QUOTE]
The child thing was to prove a point about that type of reaction being "weakness" and showing the character as "weak" and unheroic. And if someone's crying over their own safety that's different than crying over someone else, and that should be so obvious I shouldn't have needed that second part, but even with that there you STILL listed a bunch of examples of people crying over loss or crying over someone else.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;48074494]There were no "arbitrary conditions" beyond what you just said, I was explaining what I was saying to stop you from posting examples that clearly didn't apply, and it still didn't stop you.[/QUOTE]
Here's an example that applies then. Jason Todd. Jason Todd was in literally the exact same situation as Batgirl, captured by The Joker and tortured, he was tortured and cried because he thought Batman had abandoned him. He literally went through the exact situation Batgirl did on the cover, and literally cried for the exact reason you said a man wouldn't be shown crying. Driven to tears by his own helplessness an plight.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;48074583]Here's an example that applies then. Jason Todd. Jason Todd was in literally the exact same situation as Batgirl, captured by The Joker and tortured, he was tortured and cried because he thought Batman had abandoned him. He literally went through the exact situation Batgirl did on the cover, and literally cried for the exact reason you said a man wouldn't be shown crying. Driven to tears by his own helplessness an plight.[/QUOTE]
Alright, if this is the case, then I'm wrong about this. I don't know why this took so long for someone to bring up.
I don't even see the point of this argument. Are we really so far down that for a character to react in a certain way we need both a male and female primogenitor that has reacted the same way?
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;48074605]Alright, if this is the case, then I'm wrong about this. I don't know why this took so long for someone to bring up.[/QUOTE]
Because it shouldn't require two characters to be EXACTLY THE FUCKING SAME for it to somehow not be offensive. In fact since it already happened to Jason Todd it can be argued that the Batgirl thing was worse because they're just reusing concepts, where before she was in a fairly unique position with a unique response.
she needs to trim her eyebrows holy shit
[QUOTE=Primigenes;48074607][IMG]http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/emperorjoker5.jpg[/IMG]
Boom are we done?
Bats is killed over and over again by the equivalent of a cosmic being and ends up weeping on his knees
It was canon and iirc they had to purge his memories of this event just to stop him from being broken.
Seriously whats the point of doing this dance routine every time that variant cover gets brought up. Seriously who cares[/QUOTE]
Can you tell me which comic this is in so I can look it up?
[QUOTE=massaki;48074637]she needs to trim her eyebrows holy shit[/QUOTE]
that's just a bad picture, her eyebrows suit her
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;48074633]Because it shouldn't require two characters to be EXACTLY THE FUCKING SAME for it to somehow not be offensive. In fact since it already happened to Jason Todd it can be argued that the Batgirl thing was worse because they're just reusing concepts, where before she was in a fairly unique position with a unique response.[/QUOTE]
Again, what I'm asking for isn't that specific, it's just incredibly rare for it to happen to superheroes (for the reasons I mentioned earlier).
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;48074654]Again, what I'm asking for isn't that specific, it's just incredibly rare for it to happen to superheroes (for the reasons I mentioned earlier).[/QUOTE]
When people gave you similar situations you said they didn't fucking count. You ONLY capitulated when given a specific example that was exactly the same as the Batgirl cover. You literally were asking for something that fucking specific.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;48074646]that's just a bad picture, her eyebrows suit her[/QUOTE]
[img]https://thebetsypowell.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/cara-delevingne-eyebrows.jpg[/img]
look at the size of those fuckers hahahaha
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