[QUOTE=SeamanStains;45825134]Digital Flora camo pattern, it's what they issue to the Russian military forces in 2014.
[img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73507000/jpg/_73507099_soldiers.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Are you implying rebels (and not only rebels) cant buy these or aqquire throught other means?
Also consdiering how many volonteur russians are fighting in ukraine (I am not denying this) it's not surprising to see some camo.
But how does this prove there are 4000 soldiers entering Ukraine?
Putin isn't that stupid, I don't think he would just outright intervene into Ukraine now. You can later put the blame on rebels for everything, but only if you don't move your actual forces in.
I can be wrong or I can be right, it's hard to tell so I will wait for real proof.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45825152]Are you implying rebels (and not only rebels) cant buy these or aqquire throught other means?
Also consdiering how many volonteur russians are fighting in ukraine (I am not denying this) it's not surprising to see some camo.
But how does this prove there are 4000 soldiers entering Ukraine?
Putin isn't that stupid, I don't think he would just outright intervene into Ukraine now. You can later put the blame on rebels for everything, but only if you don't move your actual forces in.
I can be wrong or I can be right, it's hard to tell so I will wait for real proof.[/QUOTE]
why were Russian service men captured deep inside of Ukraine?
What do you think happened there?
Hahahaha
Oh my god
I don't know if anyone else remembers my post from the thread showing how a top rebel officer was wounded but....let me remind you...
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;45738566]Well [I]-I believe many other FPers here who have also read military history will agree with me-[/I] I have to say that Ukrainian Russian nationalists failed to achieve their aims the moment they decided to go conventional warfare and started seizing territory.
[B]I give them no more than 2 months. Unless they are reinforced by Russia [/B]or the UKR government makes a gross mistake regarding how to handle rebels post conflict, this will end very soon.[/QUOTE]
They have been reinforced (And I meant directly: not just equipment, but men also)...
I now foresee this becoming a new proxy war with increased intervention from the EU side.
Thing is, Ukraine can't fall. It either becomes the Uruguay of the XXI century, or it's going to be turned into ashes because Russians won't let it go and it is a vital asset for the EU
EDIT
[QUOTE]Putin isn't that stupid, I don't think he would just outright intervene into Ukraine now. You can later put the blame on rebels for everything, but only if you don't move your actual forces in.
[/QUOTE]
As you said, Putin isn't that stupid.
[B][I]He has already probed the EU and US response when he invaded Crimea. [/I][/B]If he just reinforces and solidifies rebels position then international opinion won't be able to do much against him because "Vox populis vox dei". Supposedly, things would get hot if once he has already established a consolidated position in the east, starts moving west.
Plus, we can see sanctions imposed against Russia also as a trigger for all this, because the worse they get, the more they think they need to push west and seize more territory.
It's like a game of chess, really. Just think Russia has all queens and the EU has all pawns
:(
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;45825213]Hahahaha
I now foresee this becoming a new proxy war with increased intervention from the EU side.
:([/QUOTE]
I read someone post about proxy war used in conjunction with Russia and just had to make a post about it as well.
Why would the EU partake in the proxy war? We're not america.
[QUOTE=NoDachiUK;45825174]why were Russian service men captured deep inside of Ukraine?
What do you think happened there?[/QUOTE]
We discussed it in the thread that was dedictaded to these soldiers so I don't think we should clutter this one with that topic. If you are interested in my opinion you can check the first thread about these soldiers (I doubt you are though).
Tl;dr: this event with the soldiers is shady, russkies fucked up, either the command or someone else. Either way the soldiers (as stated by them) didnt even know what the fuck was happening and didn't want to invade anyone.
[editline]28th August 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;45825213]Hahahaha
:([/QUOTE]
Ukraine a vital asset to EU? More like nobody really gives a fuck about Ukraine, it's all about Russia vs USA.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45825357]We discussed it in the thread that was dedictaded to these soldiers so I don't think we should clutter this one with that topic. If you are interested in my opinion you can check the first thread about these soldiers (I doubt you are though).
Tl;dr: this event with the soldiers is shady, russkies fucked up, either the command or someone else. Either way the soldiers (as stated by them) didnt even know what the fuck was happening and didn't want to invade anyone.[/QUOTE]
So you tacility admit Russia has sent soldiers into Ukraine, yet continue to maintain that no Russian soldiers are sent into Ukraine?
Can you fill me in here because it sounds like that doesn't make any sense.
You either got to accept that Russia has sent in soldiers, or deny it.
Have they sent soldiers in to Ukraine or not?
[QUOTE=NoDachiUK;45825373]So you tacility admit Russia has sent soldiers into Ukraine, yet continue to maintain that no Russian soldiers are sent into Ukraine?
Can you fill me in here because it sounds like that doesn't make any sense.
You either got to accept that Russia has sent in soldiers, or deny it.
Have they sent soldiers in to Ukraine or not?[/QUOTE]
They have sent this poor squad of soldiers. Yes, they did.
But did they send a god damn army of 4000? I am not sure.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45825419]They have sent this poor squad of soldiers. Yes, they did.
But did they send a god damn army of 4000? I am not sure.[/QUOTE]
Your friend in Ukraine says otherwise.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImpixvWZsNo[/media]
He literally says (or is translated to say, since I do not speak Russian) that 3,000-4,000 Russian's were present as reinforcements from Russia. If they were Regular army soldiers on vacation, veterans of age who can still fight, volunteers, etc doesn't matter, they shouldn't be there period.
[QUOTE]Ukraine a vital asset to EU? More like nobody really gives a fuck about Ukraine, it's all about Russia vs USA.
[/QUOTE]
Like, really?
Ukraine is the final piece in Russia's plan for advancing over who supplies Europe with gas
It has large reserves of gas which would add to Russia's supply, which in turn can allow them to overflood the market and sent prices down which in turn can affect competitors, namely from the Nordic countries.
Hell
I am not making this up myself, it is an analysis that has been going on for months in The Economist. They even said some fuck up was going to happen back in January before everything imploded.
[url]http://www.economist.com/news/business/21592639-european-efforts-reduce-russian-state-owned-companys-sway-over-gas-prices-have-been[/url]
It has the pipes as well as the gas. The struggle between Russia and the EU for political influence in Ukraine partly reflects the country’s importance to both sides as a conduit for Russian gas. But Gazprom appears to have started work on an alternative route: South Stream, a $38 billion pipeline with a capacity of 63bcm in the “Southern Corridor”, bypassing Ukraine via the Black Sea. Nord Stream, under the Baltic Sea, already gives Gazprom plenty of capacity beyond what its current long-term contracts require, says Peter Hughes, an industry analyst. The company also has plans to add more storage in Europe, allowing it to release gas swiftly onto the market.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45825419]They have sent this poor squad of soldiers. Yes, they did.
But did they send a god damn army of 4000? I am not sure.[/QUOTE]
So the Russian military is directly supporting the Rebels, including up to soldiers on the ground?
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;45825453]Like, really?
Ukraine is the final piece in Russia's plan for advancing over who supplies Europe with gas
It has large reserves of gas which would add to Russia's supply, which in turn can allow them to overflood the market and sent prices down which in turn can affect competitors, namely from the Nordic countries.
Hell
I am not making this up myself, it is an analysis that has been going on for months in The Economist. They even said some fuck up was going to happen back in January before everything imploded.
[url]http://www.economist.com/news/business/21592639-european-efforts-reduce-russian-state-owned-companys-sway-over-gas-prices-have-been[/url]
It has the pipes as well as the gas. The struggle between Russia and the EU for political influence in Ukraine partly reflects the country’s importance to both sides as a conduit for Russian gas. But Gazprom appears to have started work on an alternative route: South Stream, a $38 billion pipeline with a capacity of 63bcm in the “Southern Corridor”, bypassing Ukraine via the Black Sea. Nord Stream, under the Baltic Sea, already gives Gazprom plenty of capacity beyond what its current long-term contracts require, says Peter Hughes, an industry analyst. The company also has plans to add more storage in Europe, allowing it to release gas swiftly onto the market.[/QUOTE]
Ukraine is indeed the conduit, but it won't be relevant after the South Stream is built.
Ukraine has some gas, but it is shale gas. USA have the technology to mine it, but Russians don't so it's practically useless to Russkies. The gas reserves are already being mined by some USA fuel companies.
[editline]28th August 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=NoDachiUK;45825462]So the Russian military is directly supporting the Rebels, including up to soldiers on the ground?[/QUOTE]
Read the interview with the soldiers. They were just told to go 70 kms north and didn't even notice crossing the border. They didn't support anyone because they didn't fight.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45825513]Read the interview with the soldiers. They were just told to go 70 kms north and didn't even notice crossing the border. They didn't support anyone because they didn't fight.[/QUOTE]
[quote]Sgt Andrei Generalov, as saying: "Stop sending in our boys. Why? This is not our war. And if we weren't here, none of this would have happened."[/quote]
this part of the interview?
[QUOTE=NoDachiUK;45825545]this part of the interview?[/QUOTE]
You are derailing the conversation.
There is no proof to 4000 russians entering Ukraine as of now - that's a fact.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45825599]You are derailing the conversation.
There is no proof to 4000 russians entering Ukraine as of now - that's a fact.[/QUOTE]
I'm still waiting for pictures before I start saying things are fact. Because right now, you're giving an opinion.
Also how could you walk past that question? The soldier directly referenced the war in Ukraine by saying "Stop sending in [b]our[/b] boys. Why? [b]This is not our war. And if we weren't here, none of this would have happened.[/b]"
I know English isn't your language, so let me help you here. "Our" is possessive, usually in a group context, like "Our football club" or "Our Army" or "Our government". When he was saying "Our boys", he's directly referencing other Russian military personnel. When he's saying "not our war", he's directly referencing the war in Ukraine as of right now, and also referencing that Russian's are actively engaged in it. When he said "And if we weren't here, none of this would have happened." is rather ambiguous, but can still be referencing the war in Ukraine being instigated by Russia, or as you seem to believe, the fact that they were sent into Ukraine on accident, though I sincerely doubt that is what the soldier was referencing when they said "And if we weren't here, none of this would have happened."
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45825599]You are derailing the conversation.
There is no proof to 4000 russians entering Ukraine as of now - that's a fact.[/QUOTE]
I'm not derailing the conversation.
I'm questioning your refusal to admit Russia is playing a large part in Ukraine.
Which is relevant to this thread.
Especially when you said that this story can't be true because Russia isn't sending soldiers. When infact there is solid proof that they have? Such as the captured paratroopers.
"Russia has not sent troops into ukraine! There is no evidence"
*evidence provided*
"Stop derailing!"
[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;45825625]I'm still waiting for pictures before I start saying things are fact. Because right now, you're giving an opinion.
Also how could you walk past that question? The soldier directly referenced the war in Ukraine by saying "Stop sending in [b]our[/b] boys. Why? [b]This is not our war. And if we weren't here, none of this would have happened.[/b]"[/QUOTE]
Couple of things about that video.
It could be fake, I don't think it is, but It could be. On that note is worth considering it with a grain of salt, there has been alot of fake shit around this conflict and neither side is going to stop any time soon.
The guys might also be told to say that, to get support pro-Ukraine militias or the army could have coerced the guys into following some script.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45825675]Couple of things about that video.
It could be fake, I don't think it is, but It could be. On that note is worth considering it with a grain of salt, there has been alot of fake shit around this conflict and neither side is going to stop any time soon.
The guys might also be told to say that, to get support pro-Ukraine militias or the army could have coerced the guys into following some script.[/QUOTE]
There is this possibility, I won't lie, but to take anything that one side says at face value while not listening at least a little bit to the other side is biased as fuck.
I know I might be biased toward the West/US/EU, but that's also because I've tried to read Russian news, and it is literally everything but news. It's like they've never heard of journalistic integrity.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45825675]Couple of things about that video.
It could be fake, I don't think it is, but It could be. On that note is worth considering it with a grain of salt, there has been alot of fake shit around this conflict and neither side is going to stop any time soon.
The guys might also be told to say that, to get support pro-Ukraine militias or the army could have coerced the guys into following some script.[/QUOTE]
Sure it can be fake. Just like [I]anything[/I] can be fake.
Such like the moon landings.
But luckily you can measure things with degrees of certainty.
Otherwise you might as well continue believing Putin is a Talbot Yancy and Obama is a lizard.
[QUOTE=NoDachiUK;45825733]Sure it can be fake. Just like [I]anything[/I] can be fake.
Such like the moon landings.
But luckily you can measure things with degrees of certainty.
Otherwise you might as well continue believing Putin is a Talbot Yancy and Obama is a lizard.[/QUOTE]
Looks an awful lot like ad hominem.
Question something authenticity -> conspiracy theorist -> believe in lizard people
There have been a number of fake things made from both sides. It isn't unreasonable to suggest that they will continue to make fake stuff to get support and spread misinformation. (remember the fake jew eviction notices?)
Good work though, implying I believe in reptilians and stuff, great way to get people to agree with you. Easier than using logic and facts right?
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45825833]Looks an awful lot like ad hominem.
Question something authenticity -> conspiracy theorist -> believe in lizard people
There have been a number of fake things made from both sides. It isn't unreasonable to suggest that they will continue to make fake stuff to get support and spread misinformation. (remember the fake jew eviction notices?)
Good work though, implying I believe in reptilians and stuff, great way to get people to agree with you. Easier than using logic and facts right?[/QUOTE]
What makes you think it was directly at you?
You yourself said you believe it not to be fake.
[editline]28th August 2014[/editline]
In other news: Russia Media are now reporting on the Russian invasion into Ukraine.
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28965597[/url]
[img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77214000/jpg/_77214546_papers.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=NoDachiUK;45825904]What makes you think it was directly at you?
You yourself said you believe it not to be fake.
[editline]28th August 2014[/editline]
In other news: Russia Media are now reporting on the Russian invasion into Ukraine.
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28965597[/url]
[img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77214000/jpg/_77214546_papers.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
And they quoted only the opposition. Someone should tell bbc that the oposition has been saying "we are at war with Ukraine" ever since green men appeared in crimea. And it's understandable.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45825986]And they quoted only the opposition. Someone should tell bbc that the oposition has been saying "we are at war with Ukraine" ever since green men appeared in crimea. And it's understandable.[/QUOTE]
You can't pretend this isn't passing an important threshold where not even the Kremlin tight grasp over state media can stop the reports.
[QUOTE=NoDachiUK;45826020]You can't pretend this isn't passing an important threshold where not even the Kremlin tight grasp over state media can stop the reports.[/QUOTE]
There is no tight grasp on rumors. If you watch our media (not just RT) someone says bullshit every day and Kremlin doesn't care, because the more noise there are the harder it is to find truth.
It is causing a lot of fuss thought so something will sure happen soon.
Russia is one of the worst countries in the world for free press.
[url]http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php[/url]
[QUOTE=NoDachiUK;45826050]Russia is one of the worst countries in the world for free press.
[url]http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php[/url][/QUOTE]
I never said otherwise.
[QUOTE=NoDachiUK;45826050]Russia is one of the worst countries in the world for free press.
[URL]http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php[/URL][/QUOTE]
To be fair here, so is Ukraine.
And on an unrelated note, the UK, US and France are hilariously low on the list too.
Face it. If nothing is done, mother Russia will take Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Riller;45826167]To be fair here, so is Ukraine.
And on an unrelated note, the UK, US and France are hilariously low on the list too.[/QUOTE]
Thats why I avoid all Ukrainian news sources as well.
But in other news - these have just been released.
[img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77221000/jpg/_77221029_023659940-1.jpg[/img]
[editline]28th August 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=MatheusMCardoso;45826241]Face it. If nothing is done, mother Russia will take Ukraine.[/QUOTE]
If nothing is done Russia will stall the Pro-Government offensive long enough to secure the separatists a strong position in any future negotiations into the future of that region of the country. I doubt there is any desire nor funds to annex Ukraine as an entire country.
[editline]28th August 2014[/editline]
[quote]More than 100 Russian soldiers were killed in eastern Ukraine in a single battle in August while helping separatists fight Ukrainian troops, two members of the Russian presidential human rights council are quoted by Reuters as saying.
The council is an advisory body with no legal powers and is described as having an uneasy relationship with the Kremlin.[/quote]
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28966679[/url]
[QUOTE=MatheusMCardoso;45826241]Face it. If nothing is done, mother Russia will take Ukraine.[/QUOTE]
If Russia wanted Donbass would already be Russian as people there voted just like in Crimea.
The problem is that Russian doesn't need Donbass. We just don't have the money to feed 2 more huge regions.
Crimea already got 30 billion rubles to get the infrastructure running and more investements will be required to make it profitable.
With the sanctions and other bullshit we just can't afford to make our huge empire even bigger.
So if nothing is done nothing will happen.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;45826407]If Russia wanted Donbass would already be Russian as people there voted just like in Crimea.
The problem is that Russian doesn't need Donbass. We just don't have the money to feed 2 more huge regions.
Crimea already got 30 billion rubles to get the infrastructure running and more investements will be required to make it profitable.
With the sanctions and other bullshit we just can't afford to make our huge empire even bigger.
So if nothing is done nothing will happen.[/QUOTE]
And when you take all the regions of Ukraine worth taking, who will feed the rest? You'll take your pipeline, you'll take the gas deposits and you'll leave the rest of the country in tatters. It's easy to be on the side of your country when you willfully ignore the repercussions it'll have on Ukraine's economy.
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