Russian Paratrooper Describes Fighting in Ukraine in Leaked Transcripts - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46043760]The Carnation Revolution was pretty successful :v:[/QUOTE] Kind of the exception to the rule, wouldn't you agree?

This is a record for SH, a thread regarding Russia/Ukraine that hasn't been taken over by mdeceiver79 and his forever flowing knowledge of the conflict from his home in the UK. Still surprised Russia is denying its involvement, but obviously russian people are lapping it up because the west is the devil and all that.

[QUOTE=laserguided;46043902]NATO says 1000, Ukraine says 5000.[/QUOTE] soooooo no hard numbers then.

[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;46041446]Russia is taking way more casualties then I would've thought.[/QUOTE] It's a modern army that they're fighting, not some backwards little country. I'm surprised they've only killed this few.

[QUOTE=kibble;46044188]This is a record for SH, a thread regarding Russia/Ukraine that hasn't been taken over by mdeceiver79 and his forever flowing knowledge of the conflict from his home in the UK. Still surprised Russia is denying its involvement, but obviously russian people are lapping it up because the west is the devil and all that.[/QUOTE] Don't worry, here now

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46045562]Don't worry, here now[/QUOTE] Probably the only not anti-russian and putin-hating westener on facepunch is now here. Thread is safe.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46046294]Probably the only not anti-russian and putin-hating westener on facepunch is now here. Thread is safe.[/QUOTE] Jokes aside, in the wake of ever-increasing evidence that all is not as is claimed, how do you counter this? You can't keep hiding behind "no proof lol". Even you have to admit, this shit is crazy, and it's been going down for months. Russians need to actively poke and prod, demand the truth. And if some of you mysteriously disappear, don't sit back down and hope they don't come for you next. You stay up, and you demand the truth louder than before. Every person they poof is another notch on the shit's-not-right-meter. Every soldier they hastily and silently bury, offending their memory, is another reason you NEED to stand up. Media coverups and intimidation only work if the subjects are actually intimidated into believing. If not, the facade shatters and the lies are laid bare. I'm not saying Russia is doing all this - I can't - I lack the proof, only highly suspicious evidence. But YOU are the citizens of the accused country. YOU need to take it into your hands and prove to us that Russia actually is innocent. And if it's not, it's up to you to correct this. Accusations aren't thrown at Russia just to stroke "The West's" (what the hell even is the West??) ego and shame the poor, innocent Russians. It's to confront, and to inspire you to deliver proof on your end so this can all be solved. Shooting it all down and claiming lack of proof in lieu of actually trying to investigate whether there's truth in what is being said is not a healthy approach. [QUOTE]Curiosity killed the cat, satisfaction brought him back.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=just-a-boy;46047589] I'm not saying Russia is doing all this - I can't - I lack the proof, only highly suspicious evidence. But YOU are the citizens of the accused country. YOU need to take it into your hands and prove to us that Russia actually is innocent. [/QUOTE] The burden of proof is on the person accusing Russia for doing stuff. MuffinZerg has a choice to believe the proof you provide. Some is pretty solid or out right admission of soldiers or rebels. Others is taking the word of a government (Ukraine) which has repeatedly lied and manipulated media or worse social media. Just because Petro says "lol putin wants to invade poland" or "putin fears for russians in baltics" or "Rebels distribute antisemetic leaflets" or "Russias aid trucks are loaded with troops" doesn't mean you should take what he says without question or that you should use that as part of your proof and expect others to believe it.

[QUOTE=TornadoAP;46041631]Well I mean Oceania did survive pretty long so...[/QUOTE] What do you mean? Was it ever explained when it fall?

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46047635]The burden of proof is on the person accusing Russia for doing stuff. MuffinZerg has a choice to believe the proof you provide. Some is pretty solid or out right admission of soldiers or rebels. Others is taking the word of a government (Ukraine) which has repeatedly lied and manipulated media or worse social media. Just because Petro says "lol putin wants to invade poland" or "putin fears for russians in baltics" or "Rebels distribute antisemetic leaflets" or "Russias aid trucks are loaded with troops" doesn't mean you should take what he says without question or that you should use that as part of your proof and expect others to believe it.[/QUOTE] My point was if half the world is accusing your government of destabilizing a nation and backing it with quantifiable, though subject to manipulation, evidence from BOTH sides, odds are your government is not as clean as they preach. Point was the Russian citizenry really need to investigate whether or not the claims are true, and not just counter them with "it's not proof". While they are completely in the right to not take up action if there's no concrete proof, it's not conducive to the whole process of untangling this mess. It's just not constructive. The onus of proof lies on us, but the initiative to get the ball rolling faster surely rests on the Russian populace. If they even want/care this to end, that is.

[QUOTE=just-a-boy;46047900]My point was if half the world is accusing your government of destabilizing a nation and backing it with quantifiable, though subject to manipulation, evidence from BOTH sides, odds are your government is not as clean as they preach. Point was the Russian citizenry really need to investigate whether or not the claims are true, and not just counter them with "it's not proof". While they are completely in the right to not take up action if there's no concrete proof, it's not conducive to the whole process of untangling this mess. It's just not constructive. The onus of proof lies on us, but the initiative to get the ball rolling faster surely rests on the Russian populace. If they even want/care this to end, that is.[/QUOTE] If people aren't satisfied that the proof supports the accusations then so be it. There are people unhappy, as the protests show. There might be some who believe it and support it. Then there are some who don't believe the proof supports the accusation, there might be degrees of it: Don't believe Russia is involved at all (hard to believe) Believe Russia supports the rebels but not with arms or money Believe Russia supports with weapons or money Believe Russia supports with weapons, money and/or volunteers Then as with the accusations Russia is directing full on military operations The west and ukraine are accusing of the last one. The rebels are claiming the 4th one. I'm not sure what Russia officially says. But the proof provided by the west and ukraine is either questionable (leaked shit, social media, unconfirmed "we shot 20 tanks", heres a tank take our word that it is russian) or unsubtancial for the 5th point.

[QUOTE=just-a-boy;46047900]My point was if half the world is accusing your government of destabilizing a nation and backing it with quantifiable, though subject to manipulation, evidence from BOTH sides, odds are your government is not as clean as they preach. Point was the Russian citizenry really need to investigate whether or not the claims are true, and not just counter them with "it's not proof". While they are completely in the right to not take up action if there's no concrete proof, it's not conducive to the whole process of untangling this mess. It's just not constructive. The onus of proof lies on us, but the initiative to get the ball rolling faster surely rests on the Russian populace. If they even want/care this to end, that is.[/QUOTE] I can agree with you on most cases. What bothers me more is the labeling everyone is using toward opposing person in argument. People came up with alot of name calling regarding opinions differing from their own. For example, i am consdered a Putin Zombiefied Commie just because when MH-17 crashed i doubted hysterical calls to cut down rebels and asked for valid invastigation results by appointed teams (wich still goes on and remains unclear). After that i became "brainwashed denier" and people were pointing at me regarding Crimea with "ha ha get rekt, lol" even thought i never denied presence of Russian Troops that were always positioned on Pennisulia as part of Black Sea Fleet Marines dispatch. Ofcourse i could've got a bit emotional due to frustration and reason for that is related to what you just posted - there are actually attempts to clear up situation from Russian side, but they are language restricted and when you have majority of recognised media abroad ditching it and rely solely on Ukranian Goverment's reports you kinda see that unfair. Even when Russian Defence Ministry showed briefing regarding MH 17 and still asks whatever happened with Ukranian Dispatch records it wasn't getting any attention from foreign media. What about stomped investigation of Maidan Snipers, Odessa and continued shelling of civil targets and uncontrollable batalions, shit, there is soo much Ukranian Goverment has to asnwer for in this conflict aswell however their sins are getting covered up by constant attention shift toward "Russia is Bad" and blind support for any actions from EU and US. As for my personal position - I am against war and shit. But i completely understand why our Goverment has pulled out Crimea and granted stream of unofficial support for rebels for geopolitical reasons, therefore i can't say i am hating Putin for something that other politician would do in his position aswell. I might hate our goverment as whole for ditching alot of real problems inside country and general corruption but i have to live with it since there is no other option sadly. Also that "march for peace" thing yesterday was a friggen joke, 5000 my ass, i saw those peeps gathered in there, walking with every possible flag from LGBT to Russian Empire. Can't say they represent any kind of reliable or trustworthy organised political force, more like a colorful circus. They seek ways to wreck havok but they have no idea how to actually govern a real country. Dear Lord that's a long post.