EU warns Donald Trump: Paris agreement on climate change is ‘irreversible and non-negotiable’ - Polidicks

War with the EU then! [editline]19th May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Chonch;52246358]EU can go fuck itself if it thinks any policy it imposes on the US is "non-negotiable." Threats like these against sovereign nations do no good for the EU's bureaucratic reputation.[/QUOTE] It happens when those nations are run by idiots who do more harm than good. [editline]19th May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Lambeth;52249261]No superpower is forever. If the US shoots itself in the face, some other country could very well take it's place.[/QUOTE] And China seems to be pushing ahead of it in many ways.

I just want to point something out here... To all of the climate change deniers here - Even if you are right and climate change isn't real, people like you are holding back renewable energy. What is wrong with advancing civilization so that the average home is not hooked up to a grid and paying Hydro all year long? In 15 years we could have solar panels built into every roof of every home. But you guys still want to run on a depleting resource such as gasoline?? It makes no sense, go back to the dark ages in which you came from.

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;52249350]I just want to point something out here... To all of the climate change deniers here - Even if you are right and climate change isn't real, people like you are holding back renewable energy. What is wrong with advancing civilization so that the average home is not hooked up to a grid and paying Hydro all year long? In 15 years we could have solar panels built into every roof of every home. But you guys still want to run on a depleting resource such as gasoline?? It makes no sense, go back to the dark ages in which you came from.[/QUOTE] I'd support it if it were more efficient and reliable. [url]http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/27/obama-backed-green-energy-failures-leave-taxpayers/[/url] Once it becomes advanced enough that it's cheap, and efficient as conventional fuel, I'm all for putting panels on every home, and electric cars becoming the norm. Nuclear Energy is another good option (pretty much zero emissions aside from steam) but you have to deal with what to do with all the waste.

There really is no reason to support the continued use of disposable energy. If climate change is indeed a hoax, who cares if it gets us to advance civilization out of the era of coal and gas. Sure there have been hiccups in the development of the green energy, but what advancement of civilization has not had hiccups?

[QUOTE=DiBBs27;52249374]There really is no reason to support the continued use of disposable energy. If climate change is indeed a hoax, who cares if it gets us to advance civilization out of the era of coal and gas. Sure there have been hiccups in the development of the green energy, but what advancement of civilization has not had hiccups?[/QUOTE] It seems that people are more worried about short-term gains than long-term. Probably why they keep obsolete industries alive.

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52249412]It seems that people are more worried about short-term gains than long-term. Probably why they keep obsolete industries alive.[/QUOTE] Civilization is usually dragged kicking and screaming into enlightenment.

[QUOTE=EXPLOOOSIONS!;52248973]You know if the EU was trying to extort money out of America you'd have a point, but they're just asking them to maybe not pollute the planet to death which is a pretty reasonable request tbh[/QUOTE] If the Paris Agreement that the US signed was about US paying EU some money by a certain date for instance, EU would have the full right to demand this money. This isn't just about climate, this is an actual binding agreement between nations. To say "EU wants to dictate US what to do" is just dumb, [i]the US agreed to this[/i].

[QUOTE=Drury;52249451]If the Paris Agreement that the US signed was about US paying EU some money by a certain date for instance, EU would have the full right to demand this money. This isn't just about climate, this is an actual binding agreement between nations. To say "EU wants to dictate US what to do" is just dumb, [i]the US agreed to this[/i].[/QUOTE] You got an agreement from the sitting president at the time. Any new president is not bound to honor what a previous president has said or done.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52249461]You got an agreement from the sitting president at the time. Any new president is not bound to honor what a previous president has said or done.[/QUOTE] Just because he can break that agreement doesn't mean he should.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52249237]No. I'm not one to really care about "US exceptionalism", but you can't really force the US to do anything because the success of the US and it's economy are pretty important when it comes to the global economy, and destabilization of that would result in suffering for everyone. It's like shooting yourself in the foot. So how do you force the US to do anything when any sanctions will simply start a chain reaction that drags the entire world economy down? How are you going to continue paying for green energy projects when funding is in the shitter because the dollar is worthless? How are you going to get people to trade in their gas guzzlers for new EVs when they are struggling to put food on the table? I agree that we need to start taking some serious steps when it comes to combating climate change, but this notion that you can force a world superpower like the US to do anything is asanine.[/QUOTE] So what you're saying is that anyone who tries to exert pressure on the US would put the entire world at risk of economical collapse? You mean, just like the US is holding the entire biosphere hostage because its government is too retarded/lazy/egotiscial to realize the imminent danger of global warming? Between economic collapse and mass extinction, it's not exactly hard to make a choice. If toppling the US's hegemony and subsequently crashing the world economy is what it takes for our species to survive, then so be it. If the US refuses to cooperate, this leaves us with no other choice.

[QUOTE=_Axel;52249653]So what you're saying is that anyone who tries to exert pressure on the US would put the entire world at risk of economical collapse? You mean, just like the US is holding the entire biosphere hostage because its government is too retarded/lazy/egotiscial to realize the imminent danger of global warming? Between economic collapse and mass extinction, it's not exactly hard to make a choice. If toppling the US's hegemony and subsequently crashing the world economy is what it takes for our species to survive, then so be it. If the US refuses to cooperate, this leaves us with no other choice.[/QUOTE] People express concerns about "jobs" and "the economy" without wondering why these fossil fuel companies, with their multiple billions of dollars, don't invest in infrastructure geared towards renewables and related technologies so that, in an absolute best possible case where it turns out that the planet ISN'T irreversibly fucked but it IS going through some sort of trend, we will at least: 1) Secure energy independence not reliant on what mood some guy in the Middle East is in that week 2) Secured economic advantages in trade regarding renewable technologies that we could export to other countries 3) Ensuring that we aren't compromising air and water sources with pollutants 4) Have jobs that don't require sending men and women deep underground where they're at a constant risk of cave-ins among other possible disasters

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52249461]You got an agreement from the sitting president at the time. Any new president is not bound to honor what a previous president has said or done.[/QUOTE] So you're saying that our word in binding international agreements is completely and utterly worthless and nobody has any good reason to make any agreement with us because in four to eight years it might as well be expected to be overturned. Lovely.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52249461]You got an agreement from the sitting president at the time. Any new president is not bound to honor what a previous president has said or done.[/QUOTE] You're not going to gain international credibility by going back on your promises. What's the point of brokering deals and agreements with a country that keeps changing the terms after the fact? Just because it is legal per US law doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do. If you lose trust, you lose allies.

[QUOTE=froztshock;52249753]So you're saying that our word in binding international agreements is completely and utterly worthless and nobody has any good reason to make any agreement with us because in four to eight years it might as well be expected to be overturned. Lovely.[/QUOTE] I mean, the President's trying to renegotiate NAFTA because he [I]wants to[/I], despite NAFTA being a model for a mutually-beneficial trade agreement that definitely benefits the US greatly - except for a negative impact on unskilled labour and the very bottom of the labour market. America's a signatory to drug prohibition treaties that hold all signatories to vow to never legalize weed, and well that's out the window. (To be fair, so is Canada, and I don't believe we'll be cleanly extracting ourselves from international obligations ahead of the July 1 2018 target date on the proposed legalization legislation.) America under Trump: - can't keep promises (lol climate change) - can't keep secrets (lol Israel) - can't keep their story straight (White House: "The President did not do the thing." Trump, 12 hours later: "I DID THE THING ON PURPOSE #MAGA") - can't accomplish anything except defunding essential agencies and undoing everything Obama's administration introduced America's going to stop being a superpower within the next decade at this rate and the world'll be looking to its new economic giants, Russia and China, and to a lesser extent the remaining EU if it isn't pulled apart by Moscow-funded nationalists first.

[QUOTE=Birdman101;52246409]Im not trying to say it doesnt exist, id just like to play devils avacado here and point out how quickly everyone grabs their torches and pichforks if anyone even suggests that climate change maybe isnt the huge world ending problem that pro-climate-change people make it out to be.[/QUOTE] Actually it's a lot huger problem than people make it out to be. I would post an article of Mattis stating in January that climate change is a serious national security threat, but since that was not really on record, here's something else, straight from your own Department of Defense - 2 years ago even: [url]https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/612710/[/url] In case you're too lazy to click 2 links, here's a quote from the report itself: [QUOTE]III. Conclusion [B]The Department of Defense sees climate change as a present security threat, not strictly a long-term risk.[/B] We are already observing the impacts of climate change in shocks and stressors to vulnerable nations and communities, including in the United States, and in the Arctic, Middle East, Africa, Asia, and South America. Case studies have demonstrated measurable impacts on areas vulnerable to the impacts of climate change and in specific cases significant interaction between conflict dynamics and sensitivity to climate changes. Although climate-related stress will disproportionately affect fragile and conflict-affected states, even resilient, well-developed countries are subject to the effects of climate change in significant and consequential ways. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52249237]No. I'm not one to really care about "US exceptionalism", but you can't really force the US to do anything because the success of the US and it's economy are pretty important when it comes to the global economy, and destabilization of that would result in suffering for everyone. It's like shooting yourself in the foot. So how do you force the US to do anything when any sanctions will simply start a chain reaction that drags the entire world economy down? How are you going to continue paying for green energy projects when funding is in the shitter because the dollar is worthless? How are you going to get people to trade in their gas guzzlers for new EVs when they are struggling to put food on the table? I agree that we need to start taking some serious steps when it comes to combating climate change, but this notion that you can force a world superpower like the US to do anything is asanine.[/QUOTE] Holding every man, woman, and childs life hostage for [B]your countries economic benefit[/B] is literally psychopathic and advocating for it as you are is insane.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52250187]Holding every man, woman, and childs life hostage for [B]your countries economic benefit[/B] is literally psychopathic and advocating for it as you are is insane.[/QUOTE] Well, it's hard to manufacture and pay for solar panels and new EVs when the world economy is in a depression. Don't you think work on cutting emissions could go much faster with healthy economies to pay for all of the changes? Stating the facts of how the world works = Advocating for something? Why don't you just go ahead and tell me my entire position on the matter too since you like putting words into my mouth.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52250221]Well, it's hard to manufacture and pay for solar panels and new EVs when the world economy is in a depression. Don't you think work on cutting emissions could go much faster with healthy economies to pay for all of the changes? Stating the facts of how the world works = Advocating for something? Why don't you just go ahead and tell me my entire position on the matter too since you like putting words into my mouth.[/QUOTE] You still don't seem to be getting what the point is. You're saying that your countries economic survival is matter of factly more important than my life as a canadian, and every other persons life because without you, we're all dead because you're the only way we'll move to renewables. That's not "Just how things are" though dude.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52250226]You still don't seem to be getting what the point is. You're saying that your countries economic survival is matter of factly more important than my life as a canadian, and every other persons life because without you, we're all dead because you're the only way we'll move to renewables. That's not "Just how things are" though dude.[/QUOTE] I never said that the economy was more important than your life. I never said that the US was the only way we would move to renewables. But people aren't going to take actions that will put their modern lifestyles and comforts in jeopardy, no matter the country. A carbon tax/tariff war would only drive everything and everyone down. It doesn't bother me. I'll survive a bad economy. But people aren't going to take that risk. So my question to you is the same as it's always been from the first response: How will you force the US to comply? My answer has always been that you can't, and that's what my point has been this entire time.

well this is kinda why I believe we're going to die out in the next 100 years. Because you're right people won't give that up so we as a species will likely fall. Worth it right

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52250299]well this is kinda why I believe we're going to die out in the next 100 years. Because you're right people won't give that up so we as a species will likely fall. Worth it right[/QUOTE] We are a very resourceful species. Unless the effects of climate change happen in a very condensed time span (sea levels raising 6 foot in a year or two), I think we will adapt and be fine, not that I'm condoning ignoring it. I just don't think it will be the final nail in the coffin.

I think the result is the ultimate plutocracy that the ultra rich want. Most of us die out but a serf class will survive. Personally that doesn't seem worth it

Climate change will impact the global economic in ways we can't even fully comprehend. Disappearing coastlines and islands, and even entire countries, will create hundreds of millions of refugees, which will decimate the economy, not to mention kill scores of people, strain resources further, and quite possibly even lead to wars. Will this happen in our lifetime? Most likely not, but that's entirely irrelevant. We have a responsibility to create a better future for any succeeding generations, and we are not doing that by having these sort of debates where the only argument from the deniers is "well, it's not [I]that[/I] bad". It [I]is[/I] that bad, and probably worse yet.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52250221]Well, it's hard to manufacture and pay for solar panels and new EVs when the world economy is in a depression. Don't you think work on cutting emissions could go much faster with healthy economies to pay for all of the changes? Stating the facts of how the world works = Advocating for something? Why don't you just go ahead and tell me my entire position on the matter too since you like putting words into my mouth.[/QUOTE] Economic collapse would reduce industrial production and thus global emissions, though. And this is all assuming the US don't wise up when faced with sanctions and actually honor their promises. This assumes the US will be stubborn to the figurative grave. [editline]19th May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52250288]I never said that the economy was more important than your life. I never said that the US was the only way we would move to renewables. But people aren't going to take actions that will put their modern lifestyles and comforts in jeopardy, no matter the country. A carbon tax/tariff war would only drive everything and everyone down. It doesn't bother me. I'll survive a bad economy. But people aren't going to take that risk. So my question to you is the same as it's always been from the first response: How will you force the US to comply? My answer has always been that you can't, and that's what my point has been this entire time.[/QUOTE] Carbon taxes are effective actually. It's worked well in most countries that implemented it. [editline]19th May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52250318]We are a very resourceful species. Unless the effects of climate change happen in a very condensed time span (sea levels raising 6 foot in a year or two), I think we will adapt and be fine, not that I'm condoning ignoring it. I just don't think it will be the final nail in the coffin.[/QUOTE] The danger of climate change isn't simply sea level rise lol. If it destabilizes the ecosystem too much, we could be looking at mass species extinction at a global level. We may be resourceful, but regardless of ingenuity, you're not going to be able to feed 7 billion people when the biosphere that enabled you to produce food so far is in disarray. Civilization is [I]based[/I] on there being a surplus of food so that people may use their additional time for other tasks. How is it going to sustain itself on a food deficit? Think about it.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52250318]We are a very resourceful species. Unless the effects of climate change happen in a very condensed time span (sea levels raising 6 foot in a year or two), I think we will adapt and be fine, not that I'm condoning ignoring it. I just don't think it will be the final nail in the coffin.[/QUOTE] This is a slightly less insane version of "we don't have to worry about global warming because god". Not worrying about problems affecting us now because one day technology will be created to fix all of our problems is blind optimism. The EU is using this language because this is an important issue, probably the most important issue in our life time. [editline]19th May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=_Axel;52250758] The danger of climate change isn't simply sea level rise lol. If it destabilizes the ecosystem too much, we could be looking at mass species extinction at a global level. We may be resourceful, but regardless of ingenuity, you're not going to be able to feed 7 billion people when the biosphere that enabled you to produce food so far is in disarray. Civilization is [I]based[/I] on there being a surplus of food so that people may use their additional time for other tasks. How is it going to sustain itself on a food deficit? Think about it.[/QUOTE] Not to mention migration crises. Which I thought the right was really afraid of.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52250318]We are a very resourceful species. Unless the effects of climate change happen in a very condensed time span (sea levels raising 6 foot in a year or two), I think we will adapt and be fine, not that I'm condoning ignoring it. I just don't think it will be the final nail in the coffin.[/QUOTE] "just let the next generation deal with it" is the vibe I'm getting from this which is hilariously irresponsible and literally the issue with current politics who want to burn all of the bridges down and will die before they have to deal with the consequence of their actions

[QUOTE=Knurr;52248806]EU wants to dictate US what to do. Incredible. Juncker has lost his tiny mind.[/QUOTE] The EU is telling the US that it needs to stay true to its word on an agreement that affects the global community. They aren't telling us to give up our guns. They aren't saying we have to trade in our F-150's and Mustangs for a Prius. I'm one of the biggest patriots here. It's fine.

Climate change alarmism is just as bad as climate change denial, it's something that shouldn't be ignored yes, but at the same time saying things like "it's gonna make the planet uninhabitable radda radda radda!" isn't helping things.

[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;52250921]Climate change alarmism is just as bad as climate change denial, it's something that shouldn't be ignored yes, but at the same time saying things like "it's gonna make the planet uninhabitable radda radda radda!" isn't helping things.[/QUOTE] But that's not alarmism. Climate change if we do nothing about it is going to make the planet very uninhabitable for us. Billions will literally die.

[QUOTE=GoldenDargon;52250921]Climate change alarmism is just as bad as climate change denial, it's something that shouldn't be ignored yes, but at the same time saying things like "it's gonna make the planet uninhabitable radda radda radda!" isn't helping things.[/QUOTE] Why? What do you want me to say? Everything is going to be okay? You don't get to sit on the fence on everything so you can feel like you made the right choice in hindsight. Guess what? It [B]likely[/B] will leave much of the world uninhabitable and you're being incredibly disingenuous if you think that's not likely.