[QUOTE=Lachz0r;23862915]Wow, so the inquisition, the Reconquista, the 30 years war, the Irish War of Independence, the Crusades, add up to what number? How many Christians have Muslims killed?[/QUOTE]
yeah, I'm curious about his sources
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23862907]Islam is a theocratic political movement. Their desired end is Shari'a Law and the abolition of secular government. Seriously, is this the road you want to go down?[/QUOTE]
How is Christianity not exactly the same? And sure lets do so. You want to take a religious book written almost 2 thousand years ago and take every bit literally well let's look at your bible like that too.
[editline]05:21PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=wonkadonk;23862938]yeah, I'm curious about his sources[/QUOTE]
I've a feeling it's going to be some ridiculous psycho Christian babble.
[editline]05:22PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;23862915]Wow, so the inquisition, the Reconquista, the 30 years war, the Irish War of Independence, the Crusades, add up to what number? How many Christians have Muslims killed?[/QUOTE]
Might I add, that apart from the Irish War of Independence, all these were purely motivated by Christianity.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;23862915]Wow, so the inquisition, the Reconquista, the 30 years war, the Irish War of Independence, the Crusades, add up to what number? How many Christians have Muslims killed?[/QUOTE]
I can't say about all that, I think the number in the Crusades is a somewhere over 200,000, and the inquisition is somewhere in the low tens of thousands, and keep in mind the Reconquista was against Muslims who had conquered Spain and ruled over the Dhimmi Christians and Jews (no pagans though, they were ripe for the slaughter) for some 800 years. Something like 60 million African and Middle Eastern Christians have been killed over the ages by Muslims, I don't know about killing in the Balkans or southern Europe or southern France, or south-east Asia, that number may even include those, but it sure puts things in perspective.
[editline]01:26AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;23862950]How is Christianity not exactly the same? And sure lets do so. You want to take a religious book written almost 2 thousand years ago and take every bit literally well let's look at your bible like that too.
[editline]05:21PM[/editline]
I've a feeling it's going to be some ridiculous psycho Christian babble.
[editline]05:22PM[/editline]
Might I add, that apart from the Irish War of Independence, all these were purely motivated by Christianity.[/QUOTE]
My Bible? You take it I'm Christian? Because I am a staunch atheist.
Also purely? I'm pretty sure the Crusades started after the Byzantines asked for help after the Muslims started invading and conquering their lands.
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23863033]I can't say about all that, I think the number in the Crusades is a somewhere over 200,000, and the inquisition is somewhere in the low tens of thousands, and keep in mind the Reconquista was against Muslims who had conquered Spain and ruled over the Dhimmi Christians and Jews (no pagans though, they were ripe for the slaughter) for some 800 years. Something like 60 million African and Middle Eastern Christians have been killed over the ages by Muslims, I don't know about killing in the Balkans or southern Europe or southern France, or south-east Asia, that number may even include those, but it sure puts things in perspective.[/QUOTE]
What a load of shit. You got any sources for this load of crap?
[editline]05:30PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23863033]
My Bible? You take it I'm Christian? Because I am a staunch atheist.
Also purely? I'm pretty sure the Crusades started after the Byzantines asked for help after the Muslims started invading and conquering their lands.[/QUOTE]
I assumed you were Christian because you seem to have an enourmous bias in their favour. And no, the Crusades were fought to free the Holy Land from the Muslims. The Byzantines supported the Crusades because they thought they could use them to regain lands they had lost to the Muslims.
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23862884]Are you a Christian? Did you know that Muslims have killed more Christians than Christians have killed anyone?[/QUOTE]
Have you forgotten abo-
[img]http://firebreathingchristian.com/monty-python-spanish-inquisition.jpg[/img]
Oh
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;23863068]What a load of shit. You got any sources for this load of crap?
[editline]05:30PM[/editline]
I assumed you were Christian because you seem to have an enourmous bias in their favour. And no, the Crusades were fought to free the Holy Land from the Muslims. The Byzantines supported the Crusades because they thought they could use them to regain lands they had lost to the Muslims.[/QUOTE]
Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188
Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, 1888
David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10
Gautier, Francois. Rewriting Indian History, Vikas Publishing, New Delhi, 1996
Hammond, Peter. Slavery, Terrorism & Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat, Christian Liberty
Books, 2005
Raphael Moore, In Memory Of The 50 Million Victims Of The Orthodox Christian Holocaust, Compiled by Rev. Archimandrite Nektarios Serfes, 1999, Written by Reverend Father Raphael Moore (Reprinted from Holy Transfiguration Greek Orthodox Church Sioux Falls, SD., Protopresbtyer Benjamin Henderson, Priest) History Of Asia Minor: 1894-1923
Here's a little bit of piece of mind, and these are just in the past couple hundred years:
Noakhali and Tippera Genocide: approx 5,000 killed
Nasserite occupation of Yemen: approx 5,000 killed
Islamic Republic postrevolution: approx 8,000 killed
Black September in Jordan: approx 10,000 killed
Massacre at Hama: approx 20,000 killed
Genocide at Adana: approx 30,000 killed
Baathist suppression of Shi'a: approx 50,000 killed
Islamic Insurgency in Mindanao: Approx 60,000 killed
Genocide in West Papua: approx 100,000 killed
Democide in Algeria: approx 150,000 killed
Genocide of al-Anfal: approx 180,000 killed
Genocide in East Timor: approx 200,000 killed
Genocide of Greeks during the war of independance: at least 250,000 killed
Democide in Uganda: approx 300,000 killed
Genocide in Darfur: approx 300,000 killed
Democide in Indonesia: approx 400,000 killed
Genocide in 1st Sudanese Civil War: approx 400,000 killed
Barbary Corsair raids: approx 1,000,000 killed and enslaved
Genocide of Bengladeshi Hindus: at least 1,000,000 killed
Genocide of Sikhs and Hindus during the partition of India: at least 1,500,000 killed
Genocide of Armenian, Assyrian and Coptic Christians and Alevi Kurds by Turkey: approx 2,200,000 killed
Biafran genocide: approx 3,000,000 killed
[editline]01:37AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;23863068]I assumed you were Christian because you seem to have an enourmous bias in their favour. And no, the Crusades were fought to free the Holy Land from the Muslims. The Byzantines supported the Crusades because they thought they could use them to regain lands they had lost to the Muslims.[/QUOTE]
My Dad is a born again Christian. It ruined my parents relationship as a kid and has had a substantial effect on my life. I have my beefs with Christians, but they are on nowhere near the scale of my beefs with Islam. And you have it backwards, the Crusades were fought to free conquered Byzantine lands from the Muslims, the Catholics supported them because they would get the Holy Land back from the Muslims.
One, don't cite books on an Internet debate, it makes you seem like a huge fucking asshole because you can make anything you want up and no one can reasonably check it.
Two, you didn't properly cite any of those books, so even if we wanted to, you don't provide which book and what page each figure correlates to. So you're still just making shit up.
Three, a good half of those books seem far less than scholarly.
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23863188]Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188
Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, 1888
David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10
Gautier, Francois. Rewriting Indian History, Vikas Publishing, New Delhi, 1996
Hammond, Peter. Slavery, Terrorism & Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat, Christian Liberty
Books, 2005
Raphael Moore, In Memory Of The 50 Million Victims Of The Orthodox Christian Holocaust, Compiled by Rev. Archimandrite Nektarios Serfes, 1999, Written by Reverend Father Raphael Moore (Reprinted from Holy Transfiguration Greek Orthodox Church Sioux Falls, SD., Protopresbtyer Benjamin Henderson, Priest) History Of Asia Minor: 1894-1923
[editline]01:37AM[/editline]
My Dad is a born again Christian. It ruined my parents relationship as a kid and has had a substantial effect on my life. I have my beefs with Christians, but they are on nowhere near the scale of my beefs with Islam. And you have it backwards, the Crusades were fought to free conquered Byzantine lands from the Muslims, the Catholics supported them because they would get the Holy Land back from the Muslims.[/QUOTE]
Do you have any sources that weren't written by Christians? And well, no matter how the Crusades started, Christianity was the main reason they were fought. And I don't understand why you have beefs with different religious beliefs.
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;23863253]One, don't cite books on an Internet debate, it makes you seem like a huge fucking asshole because you can make anything you want up and no one can reasonably check it.
Two, you didn't properly cite any of those books, so even if we wanted to, you don't provide which book and what page each figure correlates to. So you're still just making shit up.
Three, a good half of those books seem far less than scholarly.[/QUOTE]
Kagrenak is a poo-head
Book of Facts, Oremeyer Stanislaus, 1650, p. 2
Edit:
Nevermind, the source I was looking at actually had it wrong.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;23863270]Do you have any sources that weren't written by Christians? And well, no matter how the Crusades started, Christianity was the main reason they were fought. And I don't understand why you have beefs with different religious beliefs.[/QUOTE]
I guess we'll go with the Muslims figure.
1,000,000,000,000 Muslims killed by vile infidel invaders into the holy Muslim domains.
0 anyone else killed by Muslims.
[editline]01:43AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;23863286]Edit:
Nevermind, the source I was looking at actually had it wrong.[/QUOTE]
-Well then nevermind
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23863272]Kagrenak is a poo-head[/QUOTE]
You're aren't even very good at insulting people.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;23863317]You're aren't even very good at insulting people.[/QUOTE]
I don't want to get banned for flaming with sarcasm. I guess TH89 is gone, but how will I argue if someone steps up and takes his place.
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23863295]I guess we'll go with the Muslims figure.
1,000,000,000,000 Muslims killed by vile infidel invaders into the holy Muslim domains.
0 anyone else killed by Muslims.
[/QUOTE]
No, I mean an impartial source.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;23863347]No, I mean an impartial source.[/QUOTE]
Well you're invalidating them based on the fact that the authors are Christians, and I don't have the sources they used to write them, but if you can find some it's always good to have some sources FP won't shit all over.
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23863330]I don't want to get banned for flaming with sarcasm. I guess Barack Obama is gone, but how will I argue if someone steps up and takes his place.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough.
[editline]10:49PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23863377]Well you're invalidating them based on the fact that the authors are Christians, and I don't have the sources they used to write them, but if you can find some it's always good to have some sources FP won't shit all over.[/QUOTE]
Wikipedia strives to be impartial. Try there?
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23863377]Well you're invalidating them based on the fact that the authors are Christians, and I don't have the sources they used to write them, but if you can find some it's always good to have some sources FP won't shit all over.[/QUOTE]
You just said that if we were going by the Muslim number it would be heavily biased in their favour. I'm just saying the same thing. And I think it quite likely that you can't find the sources they used because those sources probably DON'T EXIST. "Slavery, Terrorism & Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat, Christian Liberty Books" Seriously, How can you take something like that seriouslu? You say you have beef with Christians yet you'll still accept their hypocritical biased bullshit lies as fucking scripture.
[QUOTE=Mr.Kropotkin;23855639]Pat Condell is a fucking God.[/QUOTE]
[img_thumb]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/emoot/irony.gif[/img_thumb]
Also I seem to have made a mistake, I think the number of all the Crusades combined is closer to 1.5 million. I'm not sure if that's total casualties or those inflicted by Christians.
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23863465]Also I seem to have made a mistake, I think the number of all the Crusades combined is closer to 1.5 million. I'm not sure if that's total casualties or those inflicted by Christians.[/QUOTE]
It was caused by Christians so I think it'd be fair to chalk the deaths up to them.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;23863428]You just said that if we were going by the Muslim number it would be heavily biased in their favour. I'm just saying the same thing. And I think it quite likely that you can't find the sources they used because those sources probably DON'T EXIST. "Slavery, Terrorism & Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat, Christian Liberty Books" Seriously, How can you take something like that seriouslu? You say you have beef with Christians yet you'll still accept their hypocritical biased bullshit lies as fucking scripture.[/QUOTE]
Except this isn't scripture.
Here's a breakdown.
Thomas Sowell's book was about the slave trade. I don't know if he's Christian or not, according to wikipedia he's an American economist, social critic, political commentator and author. He attended several prestiges universites.
David Livingston was a medical missionary and explorer in Africa. His contribution to that figure is how many slaves died during transport, and this isn't just the trans-Atlantic slave trade, the Islamic slave trade in Africa was much bigger than that.
David B. Barrett with Todd M. Johnson as his editor provide a figure for 9 million Christians killed by Muslims and 10 million Buddhists killed by Muslims. While majorly Christian, he did a lot of first hand research and data collection, you can view his extensive Bibliography towards the bottom of the page here:
[url]http://books.google.ca/books?id=IMRsJ1gnIYkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=david+b+barrett+world+christian+trends&source=bl&ots=YNN3UBhMnU&sig=XTSYFvka7n8V5Op2efLhHQnO0Z8&hl=en&ei=BqZbTPmrCYOC8gaUr6XzAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false[/url]
Raphael Moore provides a figure for another 50 million killed, although this is what I managed to find on that:
[quote]This information was borrowed from:
* The Library of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church USA - Ukraine, A History
* Ukrainian Orthodox League of the USA - Ukrainian Affairs Committee
* 3. The Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies - University of Toronto
* 4. Ukrainian Orthodox League Bulletin - October 1998
* 5. Greek Orthodox Diocese of Denver Diocesan News: Dr. Nicholas Gvosdev - August 1998
* 6. Federation of Hellenic Societies of the Greater Baltimore Washington Region: Heritage Publications - 1997
(Editors Notes: We cannot even well imagine but "50 Million Victims Of The Orthodox Christian Holocaust" is not the correct number, as we have learned from Alexander Solzhenitsyn that more then 66.5 million Orthodox Christians also perished from 1917 and onward during the times of the Soviet Union. Secondly the New Martyrs of Serbia are increasing, the killing of innocent people, the destruction of Churches, Monasteries, Cemeteries, and homes, as well as a massive killings of Serbian Orthodox Christians, and countless missing people.)[/quote]
Francois Gautier was a journalist living in India. He was both against Christians and Muslims. Here is some of his bibliography. The figure for 80 million Hindus killed comes from this first source, Negationism in India (Koenraad Elst?), as well as Muslims who always loved killing Polytheist Hindus. They only extended Dhimmi status to them after they realized that they would need to for economic reasons, as the mujahideen warrior class that conquered India wasn't really up for hard labour and was more the ruler type.
[quote]Negationism in India, by Konrad Elst. Voice of India, New Delhi.
The Wonder That was India, by A.L. Basham, Rupa.
Vande Mataram, by Sri Aurobindo, Sri Aurobindo Ashram Press, Pondichery.
Histoire de l'Inde, by Jean Danielou. Editions Fayard, Paris.
India's Rebirth, Institut de Recherches Evolutives, Paris.
Life without death, by Satprem. Mira Aditi center, 62 Sriranga 1st Cross, 4th Stage Kuvempunagar, Mysore 570023
Indigenous Indians, by Konrad Elst, Voice of India, New Delhi.
The Foundations of Indian Culture, by Sri Aurobindo, Sri Aurobindo Ashram Press, Pondichery.
Hindu Society under siege, by Sitaram Goel, Voice of India; New Delhi.
The Hour of God, by Sri Aurobindo. Sri Aurobindo Ashram Press, Pondichery.
The Supramental Manifestation, by Sri Aurobindo, Sri Aurobindo Ashram Press, Pondichery.
The Secret of the Veda, by Sri Aurobindo, Sri Aurobindo Ashram Press, Pondichery.
The Mother's Agenda, as recorded by Satprem. 13 volumes. Mira Aditi centre, 62 Sriranga 1st Cross, 4th Stage Kuvempunagar, Mysore 570023
Mother India and Her destiny, by the Mother. Sri Aurobindo Ashram Press, Pondichery. [/quote]
Dr. Peter Hammond is another Christian missionary who traveled to Sudan, and according to one website was "ambushed, come under aerial and artillery bombardments, been stabbed, shot at, beaten by mobs, arrested and imprisoned." He is the author of [I]Slavery, Terrorism & Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat[/I], so you can take whatever he says with a grain of salt if you want.
[editline]02:25AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;23863485]It was caused by Christians so I think it'd be fair to chalk the deaths up to them.[/QUOTE]
Here's a question, if Muslims didn't invade the Levant, Mesopotamia, and Anatolia, would the Crusades have happened?
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23860951]Only ever seen a video of a retard trying to pick apart one of Pat Condell's videos and failing hard, although the retard obviously couldn't realize it, before seeing this one. Also that quote is me paraphrasing Penn Jillete, as his reasoning for not doing a bullshit episode on Islam is because he has a family. I'm only biased against what Muslims say because Muslims are mandated to lie. They are literally encouraged by their holy book, their God, and their religious leaders to lie to non-Muslims (and even Muslims if it keeps the peace in the neighbourhood), when have you ever heard of Christianity doing this. The problem is that you are exactly like the people he is talking about in the video, wholly ignorant of Islam and yet blindly defending it none-the-less.[/QUOTE]
Where do I start?
You are gonna go judge a whole islam just because the actions of a few people, and can you show me all of this in quotes? All you do all day is pick on islam for what reason? Sit your ass on the computer and post anti God things all day does not make you supportive. TBH what are your goals to go irritate people? Look at the american troops in Iraq risking their lives for their country while you sit here and complain about something that just irritates people and stirs up more people. So please go do something more productive besides harassing me and islam... Richard Dawkins > Pat Condell any day. Sure they both have the same agenda, but which one is more famous?
Are you a Christian? Did you know that Muslims have killed more Christians than Christians have killed anyone?
^ This is not Biased is it not? Hitler killid lots of jews, and he was Christian. Some of the kings of england abused and killid their wives, but they were Christians. I have nothing against Christianity, but you spew out so much Bias it is not even funny anymore.
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23863952]Except this isn't scripture.
Here's a breakdown.
*stuff*
Here's a question, if Muslims didn't invade the Levant, Mesopotamia, and Anatolia, would the Crusades have happened?[/QUOTE]
Well, I wont say that Muslims haven't killed Christians. But you're trying to make it look like it's purely one sided. In India, Hindus were just as responisble for religious conflict. Like I pointed out, it was a Hindu that killed Gandhi for fucks sake. And the same thing in the Balkans, Christians and Muslims are both equally murderous and responsible for the religious pogroms that happen there. And using that what if statement as an argument is stupid. If the Romans never invaded Judea would the Crusades have happened?
Why are you trying to make Islam seem so much worse than christianity, Gargatul0th? theyre equally fucked up
[QUOTE=Afgman;23864087]Where do I start?
You are gonna go judge a whole islam just because the actions of a few people, and can you show me all of this in quotes? All you do all day is pick on islam for what reason? Sit your ass on the computer and post anti God things all day does not make you supportive. TBH what are your goals to go irritate people? Look at the american troops in Iraq risking their lives for their country while you sit here and complain about something that just irritates people and stirs up more people. So please go do something more productive besides harassing me and islam... Richard Dawkins > Pat Condell any day. Sure they both have the same agenda, but which one is more famous?
Are you a Christian? Did you know that Muslims have killed more Christians than Christians have killed anyone?
^ This is not Biased is it not? Hitler killid lots of jews, and he was Christian. Some of the kings of england abused and killid their wives, but they were Christians. I have nothing against Christianity, but you spew out so much Bias it is not even funny anymore.[/QUOTE]
What? I don't care if you believe in God or not, Islam has a violent agenda, and I want to make people aware of this. I don't support the war in Iraq, there is no risk to America that requires them to be in Iraq, where they should be is Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Syria (and maybe Turkey). Richard Dawkins and Pat Condell are talking about entirely different issues, who cares who is more famous. Calling Hitler Christian is a joke, and are you suggesting what he did had to do with Christian beliefs? It doesn't matter if people are Christian or Muslim, what matters is why people do what they do, and I don't see world-wide genocide in the name of Jesus.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;23864088]Well, I wont say that Muslims haven't killed Christians. But you're trying to make it look like it's purely one sided. In India, Hindus were just as responisble for religious conflict. Like I pointed out, it was a Hindu that killed Gandhi for fucks sake. And the same thing in the Balkans, Christians and Muslims are both equally murderous and responsible for the religious pogroms that happen there. And using that what if statement as an argument is stupid. If the Romans never invaded Judea would the Crusades have happened?[/QUOTE]
This is a fucking despicable thing for you to say. Putting equal blame on Hindus when they were invaded and systematically killed. By your logic the Jews were equally responsible for the holocaust. And calling the Christians in the Balkans equally murderous and responsible for what happened and is still happening there, and is still happening in India. I'm not saying should have invaded Judea, but it certainly wasn't religiously motivated to make the entire world believe in the Roman pantheon. And wanna know why Ghandi was shot? Because he was a contented Dhimmi, and the Hindu nationalists didn't want to pay Jizya to Muslims.
[QUOTE=wonkadonk;23864124]Why are you trying to make Islam seem so much worse than christianity, Gargatul0th? theyre equally fucked up[/QUOTE]
No they aren't, try reading even half the posts I make.
I'm not talking about the followers I'm talking about the religious texts themselves.
[QUOTE=wonkadonk;23864370]I'm not talking about the followers I'm talking about the religious texts themselves.[/QUOTE]
Well then you clearly aren't very well educated in religious texts.
Semi-Related
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4[/media]
Pat Condell is a very smart man if you agree with him or not.
[QUOTE=Gargatul0th;23864249]
This is a fucking despicable thing for you to say. Putting equal blame on Hindus when they were invaded and systematically killed. By your logic the Jews were equally responsible for the holocaust. And calling the Christians in the Balkans equally murderous and responsible for what happened and is still happening there, and is still happening in India. I'm not saying should have invaded Judea, but it certainly wasn't religiously motivated to make the entire world believe in the Roman pantheon. And wanna know why Ghandi was shot? Because he was a contented Dhimmi, and the Hindu nationalists didn't want to pay Jizya to Muslims.
[/QUOTE]
Have you personally been attacked by a Muslim or something? Surely there must be some ulterior motive for how much you hate Muslims. Hindu's murdered Muslims, even when they were both united against Britain they still murdered each other, I'm not talking about ancient history like you are but if we're going down that road Christians fought pogroms against Jews in central Europe, caused hundreds of years of suppresion of intellectuals and largely fucked up Europe not to mention the Crusades in both the East and in Russia and Eastern Europe, I don't think you can blame THOSE ones on Muslims invading the East.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;23864494]Semi-Related
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjS0Novt3X4[/media]
Pat Condell is a very smart man if you agree with him or not.[/QUOTE]
Ugh
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