Science overturns view of humans as naturally ‘nasty’ - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;34807133][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Rousseau[/url] before anyone makes any sweeping philosophical statements on the nature of all of humanity, read those first[/QUOTE] none of them knew dick about modern psychology, I don't see why we have to pay lip service to them I mean yeah they were very important in their day, and our society still has echoes of them, but we shouldn't elevate them anything more than that

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;34808209]none of them knew dick about modern psychology, I don't see why we have to pay lip service to them[/QUOTE] Because they are the basis of almost every major political philosophy out there.

[QUOTE=Capitulazyguy;34808525]Because they are the basis of almost every major political philosophy out there.[/QUOTE] roger bacon formed the basis of the scientific method but I wouldn't trust him to do statistical analysis

[QUOTE=Contag;34800552]Really? Because last time I checked we're in a capitalist society while plenty of wars rage around the world, with virtually all governments using violent force to keep people paying taxes and not cracking each others skulls open[/QUOTE] My leftist beliefs tell me that those problems are due to the capitalistic society, not the other way around. For much of our history we lived socially cohesive. Warlike, sure, but socially cohesive and often communally nonetheless.

seriously, I want to see the rat trap referenced in the article.

[QUOTE=Contag;34800552]Really? Because last time I checked we're in a capitalist society while plenty of wars rage around the world, with virtually all governments using violent force to keep people paying taxes and not cracking each others skulls open[/QUOTE] Even if everyone is nice it only takes one bastard with a point stick to screw everyone else over. i.e. the bad people in this world a few in number but high in power

[QUOTE=Contag;34800552]Really? Because last time I checked we're in a capitalist society while plenty of wars rage around the world, with virtually all governments using violent force to keep people paying taxes and not cracking each others skulls open[/QUOTE] Thats not human nature, that society having an effect on people. Besides when we have wars we aren't doing it because we hate people, we generally believe its the best thing to do for humanity when we do it. [editline]21st February 2012[/editline] I always hated the "Human nature means everyone is evil" claim because its just poetic ways to explain war without ever seeing the real problem.

Yes we have empathy and can do great things but we are also capable of evil. I don't think there are any other species that has presented sadistic behavior, humans are (as far as I know) the only species that can derive joy from the suffering of others.

[QUOTE=imptastick;34810264] I don't think there are any other species that has presented sadistic behavior, humans are (as far as I know) the only species that can derive joy from the suffering of others.[/QUOTE] Dolphins.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;34810281]Dolphins.[/QUOTE] hmm dolphins are highly intelligent... Maybe intelligence leads to sadistic capabilities, after all many serial killers/sadists have a high level of intelligence. [editline] But then again highly intelligent species also show heightened levels of empathy, like in elephants[/editline] But then again highly intelligent species also show heightened levels of empathy, like in elephants

If anything, this kinda depresses me... If people are not naturally selfish, cruel, and aggressive, then society must be [I]that bad[/I] to make the common populace as such... (I say "common populace" because it was seemed to be agreed before that people are naturally selfish)

[QUOTE=imptastick;34810336]hmm dolphins are highly intelligent... Maybe intelligence leads to sadistic capabilities, after all many serial killers/sadists have a high level of intelligence. [editline] But then again highly intelligent species also show heightened levels of empathy, like in elephants[/editline] But then again highly intelligent species also show heightened levels of empathy, like in elephants[/QUOTE] Elephants, chimps, and large apes also can be sadistic. But as you also know those groups are more often community centric and sociable, it's only between groups that they are usually aggressive.

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];34810579']Elephants, chimps, and large apes also can be sadistic. But as you also know those groups are more often community centric and sociable, it's only between groups that they are usually aggressive.[/QUOTE] It seems that biology has set us up to be nasty to people out side of our own "group", which would mean empathy and sociability is the exception rather than the rule.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;34805615]or the circumstances of the world and their lives could condition humans to be violent; "people are just naturally violent" isn't the only answer sometimes humans are violent therefore humans are just naturally violent isn't a sound logical argument [editline]21st February 2012[/editline] what about conflict theory? what about differing interpretations? what about all the countless different ways you could interpret the data that "some humans have committed atrocious acts of violence upon each other" than the absolutely simplest, shallowest "well I guess it must be natural" perspective?[/QUOTE] At point did I indicate it was natural? The article starts off with 'humans are not these' - my response was 'well, quite a few are' [editline]22nd February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=imasillypiggy;34810038]Thats not human nature, that society having an effect on people. Besides when we have wars we aren't doing it because we hate people, we generally believe its the best thing to do for humanity when we do it. I always hated the "Human nature means everyone is evil" claim because its just poetic ways to explain war without ever seeing the real problem.[/QUOTE] Yes of course people believe what they do is a good thing what a stupid and trite thing to say no one goes 'oh I'll invade a country and kill a million people for the hell of it' [editline]22nd February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];34808630']My leftist beliefs tell me that those problems are due to the capitalistic society, not the other way around. For much of our history we lived socially cohesive. Warlike, sure, but socially cohesive and often communally nonetheless.[/QUOTE] I would agree

[QUOTE=imptastick;34810264]Yes we have empathy and can do great things but we are also capable of evil. I don't think there are any other species that has presented sadistic behavior, humans are (as far as I know) the only species that can derive joy from the suffering of others.[/QUOTE] I can name more than ten animals RIGHT NOW that can be just as sadistic as people. Don't kid yourself.

[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;34810722]I can name more than ten animals RIGHT NOW that can be just as sadistic as people. Don't kid yourself.[/QUOTE] We were just discussing this above, it is bizarre that most sadistic animals are ones that are considered to be intelligent species.

[QUOTE=imptastick;34810336]hmm dolphins are highly intelligent... Maybe intelligence leads to sadistic capabilities, after all many serial killers/sadists have a high level of intelligence. [editline] But then again highly intelligent species also show heightened levels of empathy, like in elephants[/editline] But then again highly intelligent species also show heightened levels of empathy, like in elephants[/QUOTE] Intelligence does not decide behavior, just the complexity of it. Look at Wolverines. [editline]21st February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=imptastick;34810746]We were just discussing this above, it is bizarre that most sadistic animals are ones that are considered to be intelligent species.[/QUOTE] Well, being sadistic implies you have the mental capacity to come up with the idea that there can be worse things than death, that you don't want them to die. It's not that intelligence creates sadism, it just enables it. [editline]21st February 2012[/editline] Look at Bonobo's for a non-sadistic and smart animal.

[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;34810763]Intelligence does not decide behavior, just the complexity of it. Look at Wolverines.[/QUOTE] Wolverines are not sadistic, they are violent. They do not receive joy from the suffering of their prey. A wolverine would be just as happy if their food did not suffer. Violence is not necessary sadistic.

[QUOTE=ForgottenKane;34805765]... And if Chimps were in charge? We are violent, yes, but comparatively we are a very kind species.[/QUOTE] Chimps are horrific [quote]Scientists have observed chimpanzees forming raiding parties that attack stragglers from neighboring groups of chimps. These attacks are vicious, [B]with several chimps from the raiding party attacking a single victim.[/B] Renowned primatologist Dr. Jane Goodall [B]witnessed a battle for territory among chimps that lasted four years. In the end, one group of chimps killed every chimp in the opposing group.[/B] [/quote] [quote]A 10-year study completed in 2010 tried to explain the chimps' violent group behavior. The study of chimps in Uganda by a University of Michigan primate expert determined that group violence between chimpanzees had to do with groups expanding their territory at the expense, and lives, of other chimps that stood in the way. [B]Once the other chimps were dead, the expansionist group moved into the territory and began to enjoy its resources, such as its fruits and the new, wider area in which to socialize[/B][/quote] [quote]In one attack that she witnessed, 27 adult and adolescent males and one adult female had been on patrol outside their territory for more than two hours when they surprised a small group of females from a nearby community. "Almost immediately upon making contact, the adult males in the patrol party began attacking the unknown females, two of whom were carrying dependent infants," she said. The Ngogo party quickly killed one of the infants and fought for 30 minutes to wrest the other from its mother, but were unsuccessful. After an hour-long break, during which time they held the female and her infant captive, they carried on with their attack. "Though they were never successful in grabbing the infant from its mother, the infant was obviously very badly injured, and we don't believe it could have survived," said Amsler.[/quote] The whole debate about natural behaviour is absurd anyway, because very little of what we do is natural.

everything we do is natural we and everything we do are entirely as natural as a chimp and everything it does every action humanity takes as a species should be considered nature, but we blame ourselves too much

I try to believe that nowadays, most people are inherently good. I've tried being a pessamist but it doesn't really help anyone. Society will get nowhere if people dismiss everyone else as assholes.

[QUOTE=imptastick;34810638]It seems that biology has set us up to be nasty to people out side of our own "group", which would mean empathy and sociability is the exception rather than the rule.[/QUOTE] But at this point our "group" is all of mankind. Hopefully people will start to see it that way. [editline]21st February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Contag;34810680]Yes of course people believe what they do is a good thing what a stupid and trite thing to say no one goes 'oh I'll invade a country and kill a million people for the hell of it'][/QUOTE] I was saying it wasn't in our genes to be that way. But it seems you agree with that.

A study about this was not even necessary. You can logically prove that human beings who cooperate are more likely to spread their genes, and thus more likely to have children who cooperate. Read about the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma"]Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma[/URL] to understand why this is logically sound. In the single version of the Prisoner's Dilemma, you see short term gain in always being hostile, but once you look at the Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma, you see that long-term gain is best achieved with cooperation. Humans naturally experience "empathy" and prefer some semblance of order to chaos. These two factors combined with our social needs make us more likely to help than harm others. Think about it, if you see a guy get hit by a car, are you more likely to call 911/help him or steal his wallet? Most people will take the first option without even thinking about the second one.

[QUOTE=Contag;34800552]Really? Because last time I checked we're in a capitalist society while plenty of wars rage around the world, with virtually all governments using violent force to keep people paying taxes and not cracking each others skulls open[/QUOTE] Just because you don't see the morality on a grand scale doesn't mean we aren't programmed to have it.

[QUOTE=ice445;34813891]Just because you don't see the morality on a grand scale doesn't mean we aren't programmed to have it.[/QUOTE] I'd fire the programmer That's like saying, just because can't observe a wide range of quantum effects on the grand scale, they don't exist The statement is 'humans are not these things', not 'humans are not these things in very small groups'

[QUOTE=Contag;34800552]Really? Because last time I checked we're in a capitalist society while plenty of wars rage around the world, with virtually all governments using violent force to keep people paying taxes and not cracking each others skulls open[/QUOTE] This study shows that humans are maleable. Which means, in a society of capitalism, we will have greed, wars, etc, while in society that promotes more positive traits, we can adapt to that to. For instance, our current society rewards psychopathy. What this debunks is people who say "we could never live in a world without greed, conflict, evil" Getting there would probably be quite the challenge though. [editline]22nd February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Alxnotorious;34800663]Makes me want to refer to [I]Lord of the Flies[/I].[/QUOTE] This book was laughably bad. "hurrdurr lets randomly beat the shit out of this other kid who we can cooperate with to survive easily"

I read this as Science overturns view of humans as naturally ‘tasty’ I could only assume human was considered a tasty meat.

can't wait to use this in an argument against all those idiots who say "marx was dumb because there's no way anything other than capitalism can work because humans are born to be greedy and evil"

Is it just me or do you have to step back and look at the people who who are saying this is wrong and wonder if they hate themselves so much, they have to hate others. [editline]22nd February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Contag;34814337]I'd fire the programmer That's like saying, just because can't observe a wide range of quantum effects on the grand scale, they don't exist The statement is 'humans are not these things', not 'humans are not these things in very small groups'[/QUOTE] They're not? The Nazi party for example, most were scared for their lives and without an opposite leader to form any sort of resistance there was only one direction to follow. Not many people have actual leadership qualities and those that do have a scary amount of power over the followers. We still follow large scale pack mentalities but that doesn't make us horrible people.

[QUOTE=Contag;34800664]So really, it should be and the research isn't particularly applicable to humans now [editline]21st February 2012[/editline] I guess the Rwandan genocide didn't happen, nor did the various civil wars in Africa That's because people pay their taxes. If they didn't, they'd be arrested. If they resisted arrest, they would be compelled with force. God are you stupid? [editline]21st February 2012[/editline] Because it's in our self interest to be protected? You don't have to physically beat people on the head to be nasty[/QUOTE] I see countless acts of kindness every day from ordinary people. We're getting better so either stop complaining and help out or go fuck yourself.