Catalonia pushes ahead with referendum plans despite Spain's attempts to block the vote. - Polidicks

I don't see how that excuses your misinformation and ignorance. If you wanted a view on that idea, then why not ask for it instead of being provocative about it? Again, you just open yourself to criticism for no reason by being rude and ignorant.

I live in a multi-ethnic country, and it works very well. I wouldn't want to split even though I'm part of a linguistic minority. But there are multi-ethnic states that are badly managed, and I understand why you'd want to split if you feel that the government is terrible, doesn't properly represent your minority and is just taking resources without actually being beneficial to your region.

[QUOTE=Drsalvador;46146633]There is genuinely no room for debate despite your false cries of wanting a democratic discourse (which, as you've proven with your overly belligerent behavior (which i've returned in kind) you don't actually want) because what you said in your original post was so patently stupid and downright [B]false[/B] that your entire argument is completely and totally null.[/QUOTE] I genuinely apologize for my first post. My tendency on FP is post a "lol funneh" post before actually thinking, but this turned out to actually be something I'm interested in. In actuality I'm a very civil person. I hope to have a civil debate with you. I'm going to ignore any ad-homenims in this post because lets face it, you deserved to call me names, I was a fuck up earlier. [quote]Allow me to return to your original post and deconstruct it. I'm not going to engage in a massive discourse or debate with you here because I don't want to be dragged into several pages of bollocks, so I'll make a single post that goes through your post in detail and explains why I think it is stupid, and I'll leave it at that. If I look like the fool afterward because you deconstructed my points, then so be it,. I value too much weight in words, I guess.[/quote] Thats the spirit. I love debating people who know what they're doing. You seem really cool. I'm planning on visiting Britain soon. Lets drink (maybe?). [quote]Considering the fact this has reached a referendum vote, I would say a lot of people.[/quote] I would have to challenge you on the legitimacy of the referendum then. The tyranny of the majority is always on my mind, and I always strive to avoid it. I question whether or not just because a lot of people agree with a certain idea, means that the idea is good (or just). [quote]Just because [B]you[/B] and nobody you know cares, that doesn't mean that other people don't. Your comment here is completely pointless and it reeks of you just wanting to try and seem cool. 'Who cares' is a patently hollow comment in itself because if nobody cares about the subject, then for god's sake who cares that [B]you[/B] don't care? For it to be a subject in the first place, then generally people have to care about it for it to become a known and heard subject. Why would you come in this thread and make this comment? Just don't read it, or, if you're so inclined, rate it dumb and continue on. To voice your lack of care not only paints you as bad, but it also opens you to the exact same kind of criticism I'm going through here. Think. If you don't like it, don't read it.[/quote] Once again, I apologize for my drunken stupidity. I agree wholeheartedly that my original post does not consist of a valid argument. I love that you called me out on it. Please continue calling me (and others) out on our stupid posts/bad arguments. It makes for a better Facepunch, and a better world. [quote]Once again, it evidently is. And why does this matter? Why does America come in as a point of reference and contrast? This is just jingoistic and has no purpose to be a point. You're just dredging up your country because you're proud of it. You're entitled to be as much of a jingoist and nationalist as you want but [B]this?[/B] This isn't cool. You're completely striking off a culture that has existed for untold centuries (even before America, infact) just because you don't think it compares in comparison to your country. It smacks of myopia and a lack of awareness about the issue you're slating. It's such a misinformed and misinforming argument that I'd say it's downright dangerous to do. Not only that, but it's childish. Like, c'mon. Catalonia [B]is[/B] evidently much different to Spain. Especially if its people have managed to push a referendum for independence through. Like, put some thought into it.[/quote] I only used America as a point of reference because it is what I know best. I was comparing your claim against my own experiences. I'm glad that you realize anybody is entitled to be jingoist/nationalist, but I think you went to far in saying that this was my focal point. It doesn't matter if I used an alien species as my reference. I am simply trying to argue for what is the best way to live. [quote]And just before the counter-argument comes: No. I don't hate the US and I don't intend to slate it frequently despite my posts that seem that way, it's just pure coincidence that most of the nationalistic posters I take issue with tend to be American. America isn't alone in its nationalist behavior, it's just coincidence that I take issue with Americans more than any. I'm not immune to the same criticism either.[/quote] I'm glad that you agree. You seem to be alone among British posters who realize this. I know that my country is very powerful, and has more influence than others, but that doesn't mean other nations aren't also at fault for their misgivings. [quote]You're somewhat correct, but if the people have made enough of an uproar to cause a referendum to be held then I'd say that [B]yes,[/B] they are allowed to vote whether or not they should become their own state. Who are you to say no to that?[/quote] This is the core of our actual debate. Once again I'm sorry we started out on the wrong foot with my dumb post, but we do fundamentally disagree on this. I agree with the idea of a nation state on practicality, but after that I try to be as idealistic as possible. Therefore, I can't abide by the idea of pieces of a nation breaking off soley based on ethnic/linguistic differences. This is especially true when these differences can be solved so easily (the languages are sooooo similar and c'mon, are you gonna argue an ethnic difference?). Maybe I'm too idealistic. Question me on that. [quote]You have no conception of the issue at hand (judging by the fact your post has absolutely no understanding or real thought put into the issue) and you obviously don't want to know much about it, because otherwise (with the flood of information on the Internet at your fingertips) you'd have educated yourself about this or applied some critical thought. Instead, you've made a misinformed and hollow post that sums up and does nothing other than spread needless negativity.[/quote] There is nothing more I can say than sorry :( [quote]Also, I like how you say this: 'Just because "muh language/culture" is different doesn't mean you're entitled to become your own state' right after saying that Catalonia [B]isn't[/B] different from Spain. Self-defeating recursion.[/quote] Perhaps you are confusing what I said. My argument is that Catalonia [B]IS[/B] Spain. I don't know much about that particular fallacy, but I don't think it applies. [quote]Once again, this is utter bollocks. The United States' Congress alone is consistently in a game of tug-o-war with itself. Why in the name of god would you ever think that the US is entirely cooperative? I'm pretty certain there's intrastate grudges that are worse than Spain and Catalonia's current grudge.[/quote] I think its important that I address this. Not only is the ever persistant myth of a divided Unites States not true (I am from Chicago and I could walk to rural Mississippi and not encounter any hate) but we see ourselves as a collective nation, and we always have. This is where I will leave myself to ignorance, but I feel like only a select few nations can make this claim, and we should be proud of it. [quote]As I said earlier, the South has a known distaste for the North and plenty of Southern states have expressed at least a mild degree of wish to be independent in the past 18 months. Once again your statement is just plain-out false and misinformed and borne out of nothing more than bald nationalism rather than any actual fact.[/quote] I sincerely disagree with this. You can refer to my above post. You can also take my anecdotal evidence of seeing southerners as the most patriotic people in the nation. Southerners love the US (more than me probably) and they want it to stay together more than me *(they might want their opinions more enforced that us from Chicago, but they would never leave). [quote]To sum it up, your original post is just flat-out ignorant, rude, misinformed, and arrogant. And that's why I gave you a box.[/quote] I deserved the box. But I had a good time writing my rebuttal. I think you're a pretty cool poster overall and I'd like to see more of you in SH. We need people to keep the bullshit out. Also, I was drunk when I wrote this so good luck deciphering any misspellings and shit.

That was quite the turnaround. [editline]4th October 2014[/editline] My problem with your post pretty much boils down to "who the fuck cares?" If democracy decides that Catalonia wants to be independent, so be it. I'm a firm believer in democracy, even if it doesn't always produce results favourable to people. The alternative is stupidity.

[QUOTE=The Aussie;46146895]That was quite the turnaround. [editline]4th October 2014[/editline] My problem with your post pretty much boils down to "who the fuck cares?" If democracy decides that Catalonia wants to be independent, so be it. I'm a firm believer in democracy, even if it doesn't always produce results favourable to people. The alternative is stupidity.[/QUOTE] My main debate refers to the validity of the nation state. What we're really debating about really hinges on that. I think that if you believe that nations should exist, they can, and should enforce their authority over their territory, regardless of who lives there. And yes, I decided to actually debate.

That just breaks down into a simple Authoritarian vs. Anarchist argument. There's no real debate to be had. Do you believe that people, groups or otherwise, should be able to self determine, and to what extent, is the real question though. I'm going to go ahead and say i have no idea what the fuck is going on in this thread though.

[QUOTE=The Aussie;46146930]That just breaks down into a simple Authoritarian vs. Anarchist argument. There's no real debate to be had. Do you believe that people, groups or otherwise, should be able to self determine, and to what extent, is the real question though. I'm going to go ahead and say i have no idea what the fuck is going on in this thread though.[/QUOTE] That really is a strange question though, its actually very deep. Would you support every state/province/territory separating from its main constituency? I don't. That's my argument.

I'm rather anarchistic in my own political principles. So yes primarily. However, the insinuation is that this would be a proper process, not a spur of the moment type thing. If a new state isn't feasible, say the next block over wanted to federate into the great country of 84th street, then no. For me the issue is the floor, not the ceiling. I'd just take things on a case by case basis then. [editline]4th October 2014[/editline] You also are forgetting that no every state wants to separate. I have no problem with that either.

[QUOTE=The Aussie;46146993]You also are forgetting that no every state wants to separate. I have no problem with that either.[/QUOTE] I know, I'm basically arguing slippery slope here. But hey, that slope looks kinda slippery... [editline]4th October 2014[/editline] Finish your drinks gentlemen cause we're closing

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;46146871]<Retort and explanation>[/QUOTE] Well, I'm glad things ended in civility. I don't drink, though, so you're SOL there.

[QUOTE=Explosions;46146634]The extent of "intra-state tensions" is making fun of people from Wisconsin because they like cheese. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what states are in the US if you think there's any real cultural differences.[/QUOTE] You've never been across the country, have you. For one example, everyone who lives in southern New Jersey and eastern Pennsylvania has a lasting hatred of anything and everyone from New York.

Lol, people on Facepunch seems to be primarly supportive of this independance because of cultural differences, different language and history behind them being forced into Spain, yet when it comes to independance movements in Quebec, we're a bunch of fucking idiots. Something I'll never understand unfortunatly.

don't know about you but when I speak about something, I only share my opinion, I don't say things for others nor do I represent them, so yeah

You're right, sorry. It's just that I feel like there's more hostility geared toward Quebec's independance than movements such as Catalonia's, even though both share similar motives. I might be wrong, but that's what I experience most of the time. I'd like to be wrong. Makes me think, I'd like to see someone from Spain's thoughts about this current situation with Catalonia.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;46146454] Well, at least that's one thing America can brag about. We don't have retarded bullshit like this. We're all Americans and we love each other for it.[/QUOTE] That's because America hasn't got much of a culture. Your whole nation consists of people that immigrated there from all over the world during a 500 year period and/or native americans. So of course you don't have that problem.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;46146203]Before Spain became a united country, it was several different countries that carried different languages and cultures. These differences still exist to this very day. In order to give you an idea how split some of these cultures are in Spain.. Have a map: [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Spain_languages.PNG[/IMG] So lets start explaining what is what, and what dick is touching what... Red is Spanish Pink is Catalan/Valencian Dark Blue'ish Green is Basque Yellow be Galician Light Green is Aranese Dark Green is Asturian Purple is Aragonese Darkest Green is Extremaduran And that little spec of Brown to the left is Fala Now... All these languages and cultures literally have blood feuds and grudges that date back to the Bronze Age, and they really are not going to die down any time soon. The same type of shit is happening in Italy.[/QUOTE] Also catalonia is in better economic situation than most other regions.

[QUOTE=Quagmire;46148487]Lol, people on Facepunch seems to be primarly supportive of this independance because of cultural differences, different language and history behind them being forced into Spain,[B] yet when it comes to independance movements in Quebec, we're a bunch of fucking idiots.[/B] Something I'll never understand unfortunatly.[/QUOTE] has this actually ever been said? if a population wants independence it's no argument, if they want it they deserve it. i dont like it when people argue "but m-muh national unity!!!", because splitting a nation into two or a dozen doesn't prevent cooperation new countries are fucking awesome, it means people can chose to move to new and varied places with new laws and regulations etc... it's easier to find a place you'll enjoy living in

[QUOTE=Quagmire;46148487]Lol, people on Facepunch seems to be primarly supportive of this independance because of cultural differences, different language and history behind them being forced into Spain, yet when it comes to independance movements in Quebec, we're a bunch of fucking idiots. Something I'll never understand unfortunatly.[/QUOTE] A lot of people have a hard-on for maps, a lot are bored and then we have a lot of Americans who love freedom or something idk.

[QUOTE=Kentz;46148978] new countries are fucking awesome, it means people can chose to move to new and varied places with new laws and regulations etc... it's easier to find a place you'll enjoy living in[/QUOTE] are you serious

[QUOTE=Kentz;46148978]if a population wants independence it's no argument, if they want it they deserve it.[/QUOTE] If this is how it actually worked, the whole fucking world still would be a medieval and imperial mess. That's naive to say.

[QUOTE=Kentz;46148978]if a population wants independence it's no argument, if they want it they deserve it.[/QUOTE] My family and I want independence. We're sovereign citizens now. You support us, right?

Noam Chomsky did a good Q/A during the Scottish independence campaign where he came out in favor of it (fairly surprising), he diverged less into specifics, and talks about Catalonia and the origins of modern nations and why there are so many independence movements these days. Pretty good piece that's worth a watch as it covers a lot of what's being talked about in this thread. [quote][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7UtwZD4c-A[/media][/quote]

[QUOTE=Explosions;46149573]My family and I want independence. We're sovereign citizens now. You support us, right?[/QUOTE] yes but i think you should consider the consequences

[QUOTE=Explosions;46146634]The extent of "intra-state tensions" is making fun of people from Wisconsin because they like cheese. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what states are in the US if you think there's any real cultural differences.[/QUOTE] What. Arizonians despise Californians, because they always come to our state and piss us off. New Yorkers despise Manhattan and lovingly call it, "Tourist Shitland" North Dakota and South Dakota have a very, "Go fuck yourself" relationship. Almost every state in the union has a grudge with the other states.

[QUOTE=Quagmire;46148639]You're right, sorry. It's just that I feel like there's more hostility geared toward Quebec's independance than movements such as Catalonia's, even though both share similar motives. I might be wrong, but that's what I experience most of the time. I'd like to be wrong. Makes me think, I'd like to see someone from Spain's thoughts about this current situation with Catalonia.[/QUOTE] (IMO,) Both sides are being partially dumb. In one side, we have Artur Mas trying to push his independence for some years now. There has been [URL="http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/11/uk-spain-catalonia-idUKKBN0H60SG20140911"]quite an amount of people supporting it recently[/URL], so I'm not going to say unreasonably, but in my experience there on summers, it doesn't seem to be such a big thing. Everywhere I've gone people talked Spanish as well as Catalonian, only some balconies had [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estelada"]esteladas[/URL], and there was no discrimination at all against spaniards. If you came from another country, your biggest concern would be the weird names (that you could ask anyone near you, if you don't have a translator nearby). On the other side, Spanish government is throwing a big fit because it would not help with our economy (it's one of the most visited tourism places in Spain, so it brings some bread to the table), it would close us off the rest of Europe (terrain-wise), and because it's[I] ~unconstitutional~[/I]. (You can read more about it [URL="http://online.wsj.com/articles/spain-asks-court-to-block-independence-referendum-in-catalonia-1411991364"]here[/URL], seems like a good article.) If you ask me, our govt has done way worse shit, and I really don't understand why would it be that bad to allow a vote[I] for informative purposes[/I]. Hell, they're doing one [URL="http://www.vilaweb.cat/noticia/4211262/20140918/independence-supporters-to-mobilise-100000-volunteers-in-door-to-door-campaign-throughout-catalonia.html"]door to door[/URL], so... My personal opinion? Let them do the vote, but not form an independence. Practical reasons, mind you; I don't want to make a passport and change my coins every summer.

[QUOTE=Coment;46151302] it [B]would close us off[/B] the rest of Europe (terrain-wise)[/QUOTE] No it wouldn't close off the rest of Spain, and even if it did, wouldn't Catalonia also join the EU, and thus abolish transport taxes with the rest of the EU-members, including Spain? [thumb]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Localizaci%C3%B3n_de_Catalu%C3%B1a.svg/686px-Localizaci%C3%B3n_de_Catalu%C3%B1a.svg.png[/thumb] [QUOTE]If you ask me, our govt has done way worse shit, and I really don't understand why would it be that bad to allow a vote[I] for informative purposes[/I]. Hell, they're doing one [URL="http://www.vilaweb.cat/noticia/4211262/20140918/independence-supporters-to-mobilise-100000-volunteers-in-door-to-door-campaign-throughout-catalonia.html"]door to door[/URL], so...[/QUOTE] What worse shit has the government done?I'm really uninformed about it, so I'm curious, especially after hearing things went south recently in Spain. [QUOTE] My personal opinion? Let them do the vote, but not form an independence. Practical reasons, mind you; I don't want to make a passport and change my coins every summer.[/QUOTE] What's their platform of doing things after independence?Wouldn't they adopt the euro like Spain? This whole affair of seeking independence all throughout Europe looks like a run for the money to me.Form an independent state so that you can collect tax and do stuff the way you like, with own gov't, do as you wish with resources on your territory(Scotland's case perhaps?) all of this [B]before[/B] the EU federalises into a united states of europe..

whoa for catalonian referendum an all that but can I stop the presses a minute and bring attention to the fact that we had A CIVILIZED ARGUMENT that last only on page in a SH thread. What a time to be alive.