[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;47390571]He used an analogy to try and prove a point that's obviously false. He's not advocating for violence or anything like that.
So show me the point in his speech that clearly shows that he "hates" atheists. I'm not going to defend his use of an analogy, because it was stupid. But it's far from showing hate.[/QUOTE]
Do you really not get the part where he posits this horrible scenario happening to an atheist family, and his ultimate judgement lies not on the perpetrators, but on the victims for being atheists?--akin to a tacit "serves 'em right"?
oh no i am so surprised that the duck dynasty dude would say something like this
People actually believe he isn't being hateful? Holy shit, [I]did you read what he said?[/I]
Who says this crap without thinking extremely little of X group of people?
What if he made a similar analogy about Jews, or black people? or gays? Would it somehow be different then?
I guess alluding to the "fact" that athiests are OK with rape, mutilation, and murder unless it happens to them isn't hateful
[QUOTE=Hamaflavian;47390682]Do you really not get the part where he posits this horrible scenario happening to an atheist family, and his ultimate judgement lies not on the perpetrators, but on the victims for being atheists?--akin to a tacit "serves 'em right"?[/QUOTE]
Do you really not get the part where he says this horrible scenario happens to an atheist family, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE ATHEIST, but because everyone has dropped all religions, and therefore nobody has any sense of morals? Meaning the perpetrators wouldn't have done it if they had "religion" and "morals"?
It's a speech that's clearly hateful toward atheists, come on.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;47390702]Do you really not get the part where he says this horrible scenario happens to an atheist family, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE ATHEIST, but because everyone has dropped all religions, and therefore nobody has any sense of morals? Meaning the perpetrators wouldn't have done it if they had "religion" and "morals"?[/QUOTE]
He's still hating followers of a certain philosophy regardless of whether or not he's talking about the group themselves or their ideology. He's still attacking atheists either way.
What if he said the same thing about Jews? Or Buddhists? It's still attacking the group and/or it's ideologies. It's still hate ("Filled") speech directed to a group either way.
[QUOTE=Explosions;47390671]Well a significant portion of Christians would disagree with you, probably this hillbilly in the article along with them.[/QUOTE]
I know. I make a point to not be part of the herd. I like thinking about my religion, and trying to figure out why certain things are recorded.
What I figure is that the Bible, first and foremost, is a cultural and historical document. A ledger that catalogs significant events going back 5000 years in Jewish history. That's kind of incredible. The stuff that outlines Christianity makes up a fraction of what's there, but it recontextualizes the entire thing.
Then again, it's a religion that means a million different things to a million different people. There are definitely people who take it entirely literally, and I honestly couldn't tell you if they're right or wrong (in a cosmic sense). Maybe God telling people to do things makes it right, or maybe he sits up there shaking his head and wondering if people can take a joke. Maybe he's not the perfect character we like to paint him as, but just another being given to the same flaws as we all are.
Maybe God's a bad programmer.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47390711]It's a speech that's clearly hateful toward atheists, come on.[/QUOTE]
I beg to differ. I'm around these people ALL DAY LONG. They say the same shit about other religions as well, including Christians. It's not coming from a "hate of atheists", but a need to scare people into their particular religion with stupid "worst case scenario" analogies like that. Hell, my cousin had to switch to baptist in order to marry his wife, because being a Christian "wasn't good enough to save him from hell." If you don't understand the religion (and surrounding cult like mentalities), it will look like hate. But if you understand them, you realize that it's not a "hate" issue at all.
[QUOTE=Hamaflavian;47390682]Do you really not get the part where he posits this horrible scenario happening to an atheist family, and his ultimate judgement lies not on the perpetrators, but on the victims for being atheists?--akin to a tacit "serves 'em right"?[/QUOTE]
He's not saying it's their fault for being atheists, he's saying he doesn't understand how they'd find a problem with it because they're atheists and don't have morals on account of a lack of belief in God - because he's been taught that morality stems from the fear of being judged before God after you die. That's why I said it's a stupid thing to say and it's an exceptionally bizarre and complex way to say it but it's not hateful.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;47390730]I beg to differ. I'm around these people ALL DAY LONG. They say the same shit about other religions as well, including Christians. It's not coming from a "hate of atheists", but a need to scare people into their particular religion with stupid "worst case scenario" analogies like that. Hell, my cousin had to switch to baptist in order to marry his wife, because being a Christian "wasn't good enough to save him from hell." If you don't understand the religion (and surrounding cult like mentalities), it will look like hate. But if you understand them, you realize that it's not a "hate" issue at all.[/QUOTE] to add
You can't change your religion like a switch. You can pretend to be baptist all you want, but your brain doesn't magically decide not to be atheist / jewish / muslim. It's just built into your wiring as you grow.
And this is why atheists who bitch about religion are dick heads, but I never really see atheists say anything nearly this bad, at least not NEARLY as much.
I never really ever see atheists trying to scare people into religion.
I don't know what's worse: Phil's speech or the comments on the news article.
[QUOTE=J!NX;47390738]You can't change your religion like a switch. You can pretend to be baptist all you want, but your brain doesn't magically decide not to be atheist / jewish / muslim. It's just built into your wiring as you grow.
And this is why atheists who bitch about religion are dick heads, but I never really see atheists say anything nearly this bad, at least not NEARLY as much.[/QUOTE]
I see it all the time, enough that I'm not surprised atheists are treated the way we are by religious people.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;47390741]I see it all the time, enough that I'm not surprised atheists are treated the way we are by religious people.[/QUOTE]
I mostly see (other, as I also am) atheists just saying edgy dumb shit, but I filter it out, so maybe I'm biased
I'm not really surprised either. But with how many religious people act it's no wonder athiests are that way.
That's because it's a two way issue and both sides feed off of each other. You can't really pin the blame on either, nor can you absolve either of responsibility.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;47390767]That's because it's a two way issue and both sides feed off of each other. You can't really pin the blame on either, nor can you absolve either of responsibility.[/QUOTE]
The unending cycle of hatred.
The best most faith shaping religious experience I had was not in a church or even talking to devout Christians, it was taking a high level religion history class and actually discussing the history behind the traditions and tracking the evolution of monotheism from Egypt through the spread of early Christianity and how those early sects formed Catholicism , it really sheds light on how these things came to be without obstensively critiquing their validity.
The sad truth is though, for some Christians knowing the history of their faith is too contradictory to their world view that they ignore it. I once had a conversation with a girl who insisted that her denominations bible was the one true unaltered immutible text passed down from the time of Christ, no matter the evidence I presented to her on the contrary, her world view revolved so obstensively around the bible being immutible that she ignored even the most obvious evidence such as the difference between a catholic bible and a king James edition
This is not limited to Christianity though, Muslims are especially ignorant of their own history and go so far as to liable the study of it a sin
It's called empathy you fucking retard.
If the only thing stopping you from killing, raping and torturing is your fear of gods judgment then you are sick in the head and I'd be scared to be near you.
The mentality of "I don't do something bad because of how it will negatively effect me" is sociopathic.
[QUOTE=J!NX;47390738]to add
You can't change your religion like a switch. You can pretend to be baptist all you want, but your brain doesn't magically decide not to be atheist / jewish / muslim. It's just built into your wiring as you grow.
And this is why atheists who bitch about religion are dick heads, but I never really see atheists say anything nearly this bad, at least not NEARLY as much.
I never really ever see atheists trying to scare people into religion.[/QUOTE]
Oh, my cousin did. He is now full fledged southern baptist. The only way to describe it is like a brainwashing.
All I'm saying is that it's not coming from a position of hatred against atheists or anyone. In their eyes, no matter the rhetoric used, if they get someone to convert, they have saved them. They are trying to do, what they believe, is "helping" you. It's a backwards, illogical, and narrow view of the world, but it's not because they hate anyone. It's that they believe it's the only way to "save" people.
tbh if you need a book to tell you not to kill, rape, and torture people you need to be placed in an insane asylum no questions asked
I'm pretty cool with the religious but if you actually think people need a book to not rape and murder you are absolutely sick in the head, because many religious texts justify exactly that
most religious people aren't completely insane, thankfully.
[QUOTE=darcy010;47390817]It's called empathy you fucking retard.
If the only thing stopping you from killing, raping and torturing is your fear of gods judgment then you are sick in the head and I'd be scared to be near you.
The mentality of "I don't do something bad because of how it will negatively effect me" is sociopathic.[/QUOTE]
It's not, though. They have roughly the same innate sense of morals as (sane) atheists do - that shit is deeply ingrained in the human psyche. It's not like if they were convinced that God didn't exist they'd say "oh well" and go on a killing spree. They're just taught from birth that their sense of morals is God guiding them, rather than their own mind, so they don't understand how someone without God has a sense of morality.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;47390819]Oh, my cousin did. He is now full fledged southern baptist. The only way to describe it is like a brainwashing.
All I'm saying is that it's not coming from a position of hatred against atheists or anyone. In their eyes, no matter the rhetoric used, if they get someone to convert, they have saved them. They are trying to do, what they believe, is "helping" you. It's a backwards, illogical, and narrow view of the world, but it's not because they hate anyone. It's that they believe it's the only way to "save" people.[/QUOTE]
Southern Baptists are scary. My mother trends toward it, my dad and I consider ourselves moderate non-denominationals.
My mother will try to incite arguments about how the world is ending, and how homosexuality and premarital sex make God upset and will lead to the end of the world... I figure the guy's got more to deal with than a few horny teenagers, so I don't put too much stock in it. You can tell she gets emotional, though, and honestly kind of worries about our unconventional views.
It's not entirely hatred, though, I'll agree with you. In my mother's case, it's misdirected fear and empathy. Obviously hatred or malice does seep in, though, and you see that a lot around here.
[QUOTE=woolio1;47390841]It's not entirely hatred, though, I'll agree with you. In my mother's case, it's undirected fear and empathy. Obviously hatred or malice does seep in, though, and you see that a lot around here.[/QUOTE]
There's no doubt that there are people who hate atheists and gays and what have you, but that's not [I]because[/I] they're religious, that's just because they're that kind of person and they can be found anywhere on the spectrum. Phil Robertson is narrow minded by upbringing but he's not a malicious person. He wouldn't push a big red button that causes all atheists to drop dead, but he'd definitely push one that causes them to convert to Christianity - because he's been taught that that's how to save people.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;47390702]Do you really not get the part where he says this horrible scenario happens to an atheist family, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE ATHEIST, but because everyone has dropped all religions, and therefore nobody has any sense of morals? Meaning the perpetrators wouldn't have done it if they had "religion" and "morals"?[/QUOTE]
That still frames atheism as the source of the problem, and that by being atheist themselves, the victims are ultimately complicit in their own gruesome death.
Imagine if this was vividly, sickeningly detailed story about a family of proud gun rights advocates who come home from a long day of rallying against gun control, are mercilessly gunned down in their home by a bunch of thugs with machine guns, and over their smoking corpses, the leader of the gang says, "Isn't it great that there's no gun control that would have kept me from doing this? Haw haw haw!" You'd be fucking insane to not see the obvious subtext of "well isn't that ironic, how're those gun rights working out for you now, huh?" in that.
Phil Robertson could have made that point about how atheism lets lunatics run amok by having the victims be any creed at all, or even had their religion go completely unmentioned, but he [I]chose[/I] to make the victims atheists, just as I [I]chose[/I] to make the victims gun rights people. People have reasons for choosing to say the things they say, and refusing to examine those reasons beyond the most explicit and uncritical terms doesn't do us any favors.
[QUOTE=Hamaflavian;47390862]That still frames atheism as the source of the problem, and that by being atheist themselves, the victims are ultimately complicit in their own gruesome death.
Imagine if this was vividly, sickeningly detailed story about a family of proud gun rights advocates who come home from a long day of rallying against gun control, are mercilessly gunned down in their home by a bunch of thugs with machine guns, and over their smoking corpses, the leader of the gang says, "Isn't it great that there's no gun control that would have kept me from doing this? Haw haw haw!" You'd be fucking insane to not see the obvious subtext of "well isn't that ironic, how're those gun rights working out for you now, huh?" in that.
Phil Robertson could have made that point about how atheism lets lunatics run amok by having the victims be any creed at all, or even had their religion go completely unmentioned, but he [I]chose[/I] to make the victims atheists, just as I [I]chose[/I] to make the victims gun rights people. People have reasons for choosing to say the things they say, and refusing to examine those reasons beyond the most explicit and uncritical terms doesn't do us any favors.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't do you any favors to pick the wrong reason behind those terms, either. He was making a point about the morality he feels atheists are lacking by trying to be as explicit and horrible as possible in the analogy. Nowhere did he say or suggest that they deserved it for being atheists.
[QUOTE=J!NX;47390738]to add
You can't change your religion like a switch.[/QUOTE]
unless youre a dumbass
Something I think everyone might be missing, or I might just be blind, is that while Humans believe we have "Morality", if we didn't have laws and civilization, we'd act just like that. If we didn't have structure and such, again, we would behave very much like animals. Morality is something that people have innate only because they are taught it. (And also personal beliefs but Im keeping that out for the sake of argument.)
He says, "I'll make a bet with you. *horrifying shit* [Atheists] would probably say 'Something about this just ain't right.'" So what he actually said was that atheists do have a sense of morality despite being nonreligious. He also characterizes the murderers (who are not explicitly atheist) as "sick in the head."
I'm inclined to believe that his intent was to bash atheism, but the closest he comes (strictly going on the words he used and the order they come in) is linking the mentally ill with nihilistic sentiments.
Still, it seems fairly clear that he meant to depict a hypothetical "taste of their own philosophy and see how they like it" situation in an attempt to discredit atheism on the grounds that there are concrete "rights" and "wrongs."
It's my understanding, however, that one is entirely capable of believing in moral absolutes while also being an atheist. It's interesting to note, then, that Mr. Robertson is essentially making an argument against not accepting Christian morality rather than an argument against the presumed nihilism of atheism.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;47390864]It doesn't do you any favors to pick the wrong reason behind those terms, either. He was making a point about the morality he feels atheists are lacking by trying to be as explicit and horrible as possible in the analogy. Nowhere did he say or suggest that they deserved it for being atheists.[/QUOTE]
Again, but [I]why did he choose to make the victims atheists themselves?[/I] And to top it all off, the whole scene ends with the murderers giving a little speech about the moral failings of atheism to their mutilated victim. The story passes no judgement onto the murderers--the murderers are never struck down by God, proven wrong about their disbelief, and then sent to burn in Hell for eternity--only the family is judged, only the family is pontificated to, and ultimately, only the family is punished.
There's more to it than just 'don't be an atheist or you'll get murdered', there's an indelible element of schadenfreude at work here. A while back, I posted a story in SH about ISIS clerics being executed by ISIS, and guess what the biggest rating on the story was--it wasn't [IMG]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/ratings/heart.png[/IMG] for the people standing up to ISIS's leadership and getting murdered for it, it wasn't [IMG]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/ratings/box.png[/IMG] for the senseless self-sabotaging internecine killing that ISIS was engaging in, but it was [IMG]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/ratings/funny2.png[/IMG] for the comic justice of a bad guy being killed by the very bad guys he chose to ally himself with. Now imagine that those ISIS clerics are the atheist family, now imagine that the religious enforcers who took those clerics to a ditch and capped them in the head are the atheist murderers, now imagine that Islamic extremism is atheism. For the people that Phil Robertson represents, his story will resonate with them the same way my story resonated with you bunch two weeks ago, and for the exact same reasons.
this shitlord is preaching a sermon in-town (i live in duck dynasty town) on easter sunday, i wonder if they'll cancel after this. i should go and ask him how often he thinks about kids getting fucked lol
also for context about these guys for people who think reality tv is real, where the Duck Dynasty people live is a literal shithole. the Duck Commander place from the show is like across the street from a quick lube. they live a little further into the country than the place this Urban Dictionary phrase is talking about: [url]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bawcomite[/url]. Si's house is literally next door to an abandoned home with tinfoil over every opening lmao. if it's a surprise that this shitlord has some twisted views, just look into his environment a tiny bit
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