[QUOTE=Moustacheman;39451548]Jews and Muslims believe that accidental, forced, and unknowingly consuming pork doesn't count.[/QUOTE]
Thats good, I guess it would be impossible to eat any meat otherwise.
[QUOTE=archangel125;39443646]I'm sort of disappointed in a lot of the posters in this thread. It may not seem like a big deal, but it's very culturally significant to those with an Islamic faith, and they deserve to be given true Halal meat.[/QUOTE]
I don't think trace amounts of pig DNA in the food is anything too big to get mad about.
Like, if it was some kind of horrible disease I can see why, but pigs harmless (especially if the people don't know).
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;39448526]animals dont think, if they do they dont think like we do. They certainly dont mind the fences as long as theres food.[/QUOTE]
(citation needed)
how can you just make such a sweeping statement? Lack of what we'd call sentience doesn't mean an animal is simply a grazing machine that carries out its function and has no consciousness. Animals have nervous systems and sensory glands, these things are how we experience our surroundings and feel. It's not like we have some special part inside us that makes our consciousness real and theirs not, no matter which [I]you[/I] think has more worth.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;39448820]please dont equate all life, or indeed, all mammals as equal, because we arent. Humans won the evolutionary race, those left behind are now a resource to be mended, studied and hopefully responsibly exploited.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;39448820]Humans won the evolutionary race[/QUOTE]
By whose standards? Yours? Don't you think that's even a little bit biased? How do you define us as having won the evolutionary race?
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;39448820]those left behind are now a resource to be mended, studied and hopefully responsibly exploited.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand how you can talk about living, feeling, conscious things as if they are coal.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;39448820]Some exceptions apply though, You can see how some lifeforms are very close to being like us, like apes and whales, wich is why i dont think you can ethically exploit them.[/QUOTE]
"See this line here? On this side of it, experiences and (more importantly) pain are real, like for us. On the other side, they're not. That's why it's okay for us to treat the ones that aren't real as if their only value is what they can do for us."
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;39448820]please dont equate all life, or indeed, all mammals as equal, because we arent.[/QUOTE]
Oh, thanks for clearing that up for us. It's helpful to have someone with all of your qualifications explain this to us in terms we can understand.
Have you actually thought about this stuff or are you just saying it because it makes your worldview a little easier to manage? Try examining things from a point of view that doesn't highlight 'us' as the be all and end all.
[QUOTE=Faren;39459177]
I don't understand how you can talk about living, feeling, conscious things as if they are coal.
[/QUOTE]
(citation needed)
I can only think of a handful of species other than us that have any sense of consciousness.
Not even going to start on sentience, because there isn't a single species beside us that shows any signs of that.
Nice job being a fucking dick because some-one went against your hippie teachings though.
And yes, there is a line after which point the brain of animals isn't developed enough to recognize "suffering" (Aka being treated properly their entire life before being killed quickly).
Try paying attention in school.
You sound like a mad as fuck vegan.
[QUOTE=Miskav;39459217](citation needed)
I can only think of a handful of species other than us that have any sense of consciousness.
Not even going to start on sentience, because there isn't a single species beside us that shows any signs of that.
Nice job being a fucking dick because some-one went against your hippie teachings though.
And yes, there is a line after which point the brain of animals isn't developed enough to recognize "suffering" (Aka being treated properly their entire life before being killed quickly).
Try paying attention in school.
You sound like a mad as fuck vegan.[/QUOTE]
Herp de la fucking derp
Sentience is present in a lot of animals dumbass, sentience is the ability to percieve, all animals have that, the word you were looking for is sapience.
Nice job being a cunt, seriously well fucking done being a cunt all the while being wrong.
Well done resorting to ad hominem attacks too, stellar debating.
[QUOTE=Pierrewithahat;39459247]Herp de la fucking derp
Sentience is present in a lot of animals dumbass, sentience is the ability to percieve, all animals have that, the word you were looking for is sapience.
Nice job being a cunt, seriously well fucking done being a cunt all the while being wrong.
Well done resorting to ad hominem attacks too, stellar debating.[/QUOTE]
You call him out for using ad hominem and being a bad debater while you yourself just call him a cunt and pick at one misused word to disregard his entire argument. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
[QUOTE=Miskav;39459217](citation needed)
I can only think of a handful of species other than us that have any sense of consciousness.
Not even going to start on sentience, because there isn't a single species beside us that shows any signs of that.
Nice job being a fucking dick because some-one went against your hippie teachings though.
And yes, there is a line after which point the brain of animals isn't developed enough to recognize "suffering" (Aka being treated properly their entire life before being killed quickly).
Try paying attention in school.
You sound like a mad as fuck vegan.[/QUOTE]
Did get a little carried away with the assumption there, fair point
Still, what evidence is there to suggest that animals don't feel pain?
And sorry? I even said at the beginning of my post (in an offhand way at least) that by what we'd call 'sentience', the animals in question don't really qualify. That wasn't ever my point
How can you say "pay attention in school" to me the very next line after saying something completely baseless?
[editline]4th February 2013[/editline]
sorry, should clarify that I don't think all creatures from humans to trout to krill all have the same level of consciousness and experience of things like pain
I just think that drawing a line around a few kinds of mammal and saying "these ones have feelings and the others don't" is an old-fashioned and really non-scientific way of looking at it
[editline]4th February 2013[/editline]
and lol sorry if I came across as incredibly hostile, got a bit worked up because imo that's a really fucked, selfish and arrogant way of looking at things
[QUOTE=squids_eye;39459272]You call him out for using ad hominem and being a bad debater while you yourself just call him a cunt and pick at one misused word to disregard his entire argument. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.[/QUOTE]
I never suggested I was a good debater.
The fact is he's wrong, there's a lot of animals that can actually be considered conscious, corvids, pigs and cows, as well as other livestock animals. Why does an animal need to be sapient like use to experience suffering? They might not be capable of writing symphonies but if you stab a cow it's sure as shit gonna know about it.
[url]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2008867,00.html[/url]
[url]http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-inner-lives-animals/201008/it-s-time-magazine-respect-cows[/url]
[quote]A 2004 Cambridge University experiment showed that young heifers exhibit behavioral expressions of excitement when they solve a problem. At critical points in their learning curve in a task that required pressing their nose against a panel to open a gate for access to food, the heifers showed behavioral signs of excitement (jumping, bucking, or kicking), and the animals' heart rates rose. A second group of heifers whose access to food was provided independently of their panel presses showed no such behaviors. This study suggests that cows-and probably many other animals-can have "eureka" moments, taking pleasure in their own learning achievements.[/quote]
If you don't agree with me or don't care then that's fine, this sort of shit won't stop me from eating meat either but let's not pretend that animals are nothing but vacant shells on aut pilot.
I don't disagree with you, animals obviously aren't just walking meat waiting to be plated up. I really just don't care though, meat tastes delicious and if a cow didn't die to feed me it probably would have died to feed something else anyway.
[editline]3rd February 2013[/editline]
That said, I don't support animal suffering. They should live and be slaughtered in a relatively humane manner.
[QUOTE=squids_eye;39459374]I don't disagree with you, animals obviously aren't just walking meat waiting to be plated up. I really just don't care though, meat tastes delicious and if a cow didn't die to feed me it probably would have died to feed something else anyway.
[editline]3rd February 2013[/editline]
That said, I don't support animal suffering. They should live and be slaughtered in a relatively humane manner.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's basically what I'm getting at, don't get me wrong man if someone puts pigs in blankets in front of me you can bet I'll basically fucking inhale them but there's no point in denying that the animals are capable of suffering, the least we can do is reduce that as much as possible.
I wonder how many 'good muslims' in prison are gonna refuse to eat their meals now...
I bet none.
I find it funny people are saying they "Deserve Halal." Who cares, they are in prison for a reason, they should eat what they are given. Regardless of some Cultural differences. Tax Payer money goes towards feeding this assholes in prison.
Saying that, I used to know of a man who was homeless. And he would always shoplift and get caught on purpose, just so he had a place to sleep at night out of the rain and cold weather.
[QUOTE=Sprockethead;39447753]i guess you told me with all those compelling facts.
[editline]2nd February 2013[/editline]
You perform halal, by tying the animal down and slicing its throat open with no form of anesthesia.
Im not against eating animals, in fact i rather enjoy it, but if i feel bad about animal cruelty, like keeping chickens in boxes they cant even turn in, force feeding geese to change the consistency of their livers, and so forth.
I have to be against this.[/QUOTE]
Actually If I recall correctly you do it in such a manner that it cuts out the nerve that sends signals to their mind about pain. I don't know how much of that is true, I don't really know the anatomy of goats and cows.
[QUOTE=matt.ant;39448454]The Daily Mail are loving this, some of their top comments:
[IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/aoq2w9.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Hey don't laugh you anglophobe, a bunch of Muslims grabbed me and began force feeding me Halal meat just yesterday. Bloody multiculturalism, I bet the EU paid them to do it as well.
[QUOTE=Faren;39459177]*alot of oppinionated dribble*[/QUOTE]
Are you one of those sick fucks that equate chickens in pens to jews in the holocaust?
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