Theresa May announces snap general election on June 8 - Polidicks

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52120941]I'm convinced that the lib dems would have created a 3 party political system in the UK if that cunt Clegg hadn't jumped into bed with Cameron for his 5 minutes of political fame.[/QUOTE] I commend Clegg for what he did. In 2010 the UK was still very much in the mire of the financial crisis and the markets reacted very poorly to the uncertainty of the hung parliament that emerged from the election, in fact the only time in recent memory the pound dropped more sharply was... well you know what. It ended up costing him his position as leader of the Lib Dems and it destroyed his party's popular image for a time but he gave the country stable leadership when it badly needed it. I expect a surge for the Lib Dems in this election as disillusioned conservative voters turn to them. Won't stop the Conservatives winning the election, Labour is simply impotent under Corbyn, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them lose ground.

Lib Dems are fucked. Labour can and will recover even from a huge blow as the one coming will be, once they get their shit in order. Clegg buried his party, now it's led by a homophobe who thinks gay people can be cured, Corbyn will be forgotten while Clegg and his shittiness won't be. And if you think Labour won't come back from this, look at how badly mauled they got in 1931 and 1983.

[QUOTE=Wiggles;52121129]We tried already. It was a fucking travesty of a campaign. [IMG]http://www.general-election-2010.co.uk/politics/av-referendum-2011-results.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] If the Tories can just call a snap election whenever it benefits them, surely we can call a snap referendum on a better voting system. See how many people actually choose Conservative on June 8. Forget 'we tried already'. It's not done already until it's actually fucking done.

Probably going to end up voting labour as they have the best chance of beating the Tories in my area, but I'm not optimistic.

[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;52121338]If the Tories can just call a snap election whenever it benefits them, surely we can call a snap referendum on a better voting system. See how many people actually choose Conservative on June 8. Forget 'we tried already'. It's not done already until it's actually fucking done.[/QUOTE] No one in parliament is going to support another referendum on voting systems for a good long while. The last referendum was only six years ago, it had a 2/3 majority, and a middling turnout. The only thing people can do right now is push support for third parties in order for them to have better representation in parliament.

[QUOTE=Wiggles;52121129]We tried already. It was a fucking travesty of a campaign. [IMG]http://www.general-election-2010.co.uk/politics/av-referendum-2011-results.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] What happened during that campaign? Like wow, even if I didn't care too much about getting rid of FPTP. I really don't see why I'd vote no on the alternative vote. It's not even much better of a voting system than FPTP but why the hell not take it lol.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52121481]What happened during that campaign? Like wow, even if I didn't care too much about getting rid of FPTP. I really don't see why I'd vote no on the alternative vote. It's not even much better of a voting system than FPTP but why the hell not take it lol.[/QUOTE] The "Yes" campaign was weak; the "No" campaign was predatory; and the whole vote was undermined both inside and outside of parliament by the Conservative party who benefit greatly from FPTP.

[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;52121299]Lib Dems are fucked. Labour can and will recover even from a huge blow as the one coming will be, once they get their shit in order. Clegg buried his party, now it's led by a homophobe who thinks gay people can be cured, Corbyn will be forgotten while Clegg and his shittiness won't be. And if you think Labour won't come back from this, look at how badly mauled they got in 1931 and 1983.[/QUOTE] is Tim Farron a homophobe? googling it suggests he maybe used to be, but he seems to be raising some pretty salient points in support of LGBT+ stuff as of now. seems pretty safe to say he doesn't believe in conversion therapy at any rate

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52121481]What happened during that campaign? Like wow, even if I didn't care too much about getting rid of FPTP. I really don't see why I'd vote no on the alternative vote. It's not even much better of a voting system than FPTP but why the hell not take it lol.[/QUOTE] Both the big parties campaigned against it for obvious reasons.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52121481]What happened during that campaign? Like wow, even if I didn't care too much about getting rid of FPTP. I really don't see why I'd vote no on the alternative vote. It's not even much better of a voting system than FPTP but why the hell not take it lol.[/QUOTE] People were told that AV would mean babies and soldiers would die due to lack of money due to AV cost. Usual bullshit.

[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;52121299]Lib Dems are fucked. Labour can and will recover even from a huge blow as the one coming will be, once they get their shit in order. Clegg buried his party, now it's led by a homophobe who thinks gay people can be cured, Corbyn will be forgotten while Clegg and his shittiness won't be. And if you think Labour won't come back from this, look at how badly mauled they got in 1931 and 1983.[/QUOTE] I'm gonna read up on that Lib Dem thing because that's something I haven't heard about before. Oh and FPTP vote was a bomb because the two major parties obviously don't want any of the smaller parties getting any more say than they want them too, shame really.

There are a lot of reasons to shit on the Lib Dems but I expect I'll be voting for them in the hope they can win back my university seat where I just registered to vote, seen as they are better than unfettered Tory rule. I expect they could do well in the south on a pro-eu platform. Literally the only hope of the tories not getting into government would be an SNP/Lib Dem/Labour(/Green) coalition.

IIRC anything other than FPTP is 'too complicated' :suicide:

[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;52120093]My overall opinion of the SNP is they're / voting for them is a self fulfilling prophecy. But this is gonna divert the thread in a direction / into a discussion I do not want to have becuase honestly, im upset, angry and irrational. Fucking Tories are casuing my family who depend on the NHS for their lives, alot of fucking grief. So im not in the right frame of mind to talk about this further, i might respond but i might not depends if i can sideline my feelings to be rational or not.[/QUOTE] Okay you're confusing me. You're shouting about how much you hate the SNP yet you also hate the Tories for fucking over your family. The SNP aren't perfect but godamn are they fighting to keep the NHS afloat with the dwindling budget they have. I know what it's like, both my parents are disabled and have been losing benefits left, right and centre for the past few years. The bedroom tax could have totally destroyed us but thankfully the SNP stepped in and were giving people money until it got abolished. I'm not going to kid myself, I understand that all this nonsense is giving the SNP ammunition but it's not like they just let the Tories thunder in and fuck everything up just so that they had someone to blame; they've been actively fighting the Tories for years. [editline]18th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=343N;52120737][media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTDWd9-zqzc[/media] damn[/QUOTE] For those unaware (seen some Americans comment) this guy is satirical. He argues valid points but always does so in a manner that makes him look like a normal reporter that's lost it - that's his joke.

Would "ranked-choice voting" be a good alternative? Being able to choose multiple candidates and rank them in order of preference does seem like it'd help do away with "throwing one's vote away" in current FPTP systems.

[QUOTE=ironman17;52121775]Would "ranked-choice voting" be a good alternative? Being able to choose multiple candidates and rank them in order of preference does seem like it'd help do away with "throwing one's vote away" in current FPTP systems.[/QUOTE] it's marginally better but still leads to each seat being a two party race, ideal would be STV, AV+ or PR.

[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;52121840]it's marginally better but still leads to each seat being a two party race, ideal would be STV, AV+ or PR.[/QUOTE] If anything, it's marginally worse. Whereas a multi-horse race can see third party candidates sneaking through and winning a plurality of votes, and therefore the seat, in competitive seats in FPTP; AV/IRV changes the requirement from winning a plurality of the votes to winning a majority of the votes, which makes it harder for other parties. It certainly wouldn't help the 'disenchantment' problems inherent of all single-winner systems. As always I will remind Facepunch of these as well: [img]http://snappa.static.pressassociation.io/assets/2015/06/01153158/1433169115-a9de94f3ad6c54262bf5ab70b7921700-1366x1024.png[/img] [img]http://snappa.static.pressassociation.io/assets/2015/06/01153555/1433169352-bcf0df40c779b25631dee1825fd0bc39-1366x1024.png[/img] But yeah the most-ideal thing to reduce disenchantment and increase political representation would be some kind of PR system. But it needs to be carefully designed, because they can easily allow all kinds of extremists to be given a platform by being elected. That's one of the best things about single-winner systems and why I'd still advocate for them: It forces the political parties to target the sensible, swing voters in the political centre.

The reason I favour STV is you keep local mps whilst also having a system that's hard to gerrymander and represents voters reasonably fairly. Obviously I'd recommend anyone who hasn't goes to watch the CGP Grey on voting systems. [video=youtube;s7tWHJfhiyo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_818923015&feature=iv&index=1&list=PL7679C7ACE93A5638&src_vid=l8XOZJkozfI&v=s7tWHJfhiyo[/video]

I legitimately don't know who I am going to vote for. I can't say I want to vote conservative, but the other major parties are just as shit. Labour always used to be a good reliable alternative but now they have screwed themselves up I don't know what to do.

[QUOTE=David29;52122097]I legitimately don't know who I am going to vote for. I can't say I want to vote conservative, but the other major parties are just as shit. Labour always used to be a good reliable alternative but now they have screwed themselves up I don't know what to do.[/QUOTE] I'd still vote labour. Cons will win this but we need to keep a healthy opposition active. I don't want all potential competition obliterated.

[QUOTE=David29;52122097]I legitimately don't know who I am going to vote for. I can't say I want to vote conservative, but the other major parties are just as shit. Labour always used to be a good reliable alternative but now they have screwed themselves up I don't know what to do.[/QUOTE] My personal view on this is that the tories will go for a hard brexit, which will be pretty awful. Forcing them into a coalition or getting them out of power should help to soften the terms, so my advice to anyone who doesn't want a hard brexit and/or more tory destruction of public services is to vote for the party most likely to beat them. Sure, labour suck right now and the lib dems feel crappy to me as a student, but IMO a hard brexit and more cuts are far worse than any of the qualms I have with the others.

Why are there so many people who vote against their own interests? Is there even a democracy where this isn't a problem?

[QUOTE=Wickerman123;52121719]Okay you're confusing me. You're shouting about how much you hate the SNP yet you also hate the Tories for fucking over your family..[/QUOTE] You are getting another members post direct to me mixed up with my point, mostly because iv'e failed to seperate my points and thats on me. So to clarify, The Tories are fucking the NHS and my main focus of anger, but the SNP are a cause of why we have Tories ([B]one cause of many along with UKIPs rise and Labours ongoing funeral[/B]). It is due to my anger on the former subject that I openly admit I can't talk rationaly about the rest due to the cause and effect. I'm not gonna lie or sugar coat it, I hate the SNP and I could go on for days about the reasons why, But the point that matters is I hate the Tories more, not enough for "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" to come into play.

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;52122449]Why are there so many people who vote against their own interests? Is there even a democracy where this isn't a problem?[/QUOTE] It's far easier to hate immigrants and the poor than it is to understand economics.

There sure is a severe lack of basic political knowledge in this thread. For those anticipating huge liberal democrat gains: lower your expectations severely. Furthermore it is painful to see optimism in voting for libdem purely based on dislike for Tories and a perceived dislike of labour. Vote libdem, get Tory. Make no mistake that the liberals would jump at the opportunity to get into bed with the Tories once more, and the polices you care about literally ignored. Vote Labour. If youre in a lib/con marginal, vote liberal. Otherwise, enjoy the creeping authoritarian nightmare and culling of the disabled you're gonna get in your Tezzy May theocracy.

I want to believe that by some miracle someone other than the Tories will win and try to soften Brexit. But that would be naïve.

[QUOTE=BF;52121994] But yeah the most-ideal thing to reduce disenchantment and increase political representation would be some kind of PR system. But it needs to be carefully designed, because they can easily allow all kinds of extremists to be given a platform by being elected. That's one of the best things about single-winner systems and why I'd still advocate for them: It forces the political parties to target the sensible, swing voters in the political centre.[/QUOTE] How was this modelling done for AV systems? Like how would you model how people order their preferences when its totally up to the individual.

[QUOTE=killerteacup;52122741]How was this modelling done for AV systems? Like how would you model how people order their preferences when its totally up to the individual.[/QUOTE] Read the image. A survey of 40,000 people (well above the 300 minimum for a representative sample) was conducted to determine how they would have voted if the UK had the AV/IRV system instead of FPTP. From there, they could assume how voters in the general election for each constituency would have voted, eg how they would preferenced the ballot. Along with the hard data from the survey, you could also make assumptions about how different kinds of people would vote, eg supporters of the Green Party would probably preference the Liberal Democrats higher than the Conservatives. But look at us here in Australia anyways; we have IRV in almost all of our lower houses, and they are all two-party chambers. Even the federal House of Reps is a two-party chamber when you consider that the Liberals and Nationals don't contest each others' seats. Just like FPTP, approval voting, Borda counting, even Condorcet methods, AV/IRV [i]always[/i] ends up as a two-party system. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing.

[QUOTE=Mesothere;52122488]There sure is a severe lack of basic political knowledge in this thread. For those anticipating huge liberal democrat gains: lower your expectations severely. Furthermore it is painful to see optimism in voting for libdem purely based on dislike for Tories and a perceived dislike of labour. Vote libdem, get Tory. Make no mistake that the liberals would jump at the opportunity to get into bed with the Tories once more, and the polices you care about literally ignored. Vote Labour. If youre in a lib/con marginal, vote liberal. Otherwise, enjoy the creeping authoritarian nightmare and culling of the disabled you're gonna get in your Tezzy May theocracy.[/QUOTE] As I said earlier, when choosing, you have to look at polling for your specific area first and pick a mix of best party, and most likely to win. So go right ahead and vote lib dem, IF they're feasible in your area.

I don't see why anyone in their right mind would vote conservative. We know they're fucking us, have fucked us, and will fuck us. Maybe I've been in echo chambers (and I probably have) but the amount of anti-tory sentiment I've exposed to is pretty strong. Most know they've fucked shit up. That said, most have always hated them, and yet FPTP still lets them win. At the same time, I think the idea that we're going to destroy labour and get rid of Jeremy corybn... Kinda laughable. Jeremy is going to get more support if the torries win. There will be an increase in leftist thought as part of backlash against Conservative rule. The only real problem is people who want to vote Lib Dem.