THE EU IS AWESOME: Software licenses are yours, and you have the legal right to re-sell them. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Ericson666;36611442]Aaand this is going to fuck over a lot of companies[/QUOTE] I really hope this doesnt change steam to much. Imagine thousands of people selling their unused steam games for money.

[QUOTE=Niklas;36611891]I really hope this doesnt change steam to much. Imagine thousands of people selling their unused steam games for money.[/QUOTE] what about if a resale fee is charged and money go back to valve a.d the devs

[QUOTE=Ericson666;36611442]Aaand this is going to fuck over a lot of companies[/QUOTE] Pretty much every single market for products has a secondhand one, if the games market cannot survive this then it raises serious questions about how they are handling themselves in the first place. [editline]4th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=rampageturke 2;36620942]what about if a resale fee is charged and money go back to valve a.d the devs[/QUOTE] Why does Valve deserve any sort of compensation if I resell something that I own? It's not theirs anymore.

[QUOTE=Aide;36610312]They only [B]sell[/B] their games online.[/QUOTE] The medium doesn't change the legal essentials a bit. I don't know who legally represents Valve in Europe - daugter company, subsidiary or shell company, but all transactions between them and consumers residing in EU are subject to [B]European[/B] and [B]local law[/B]. EULAs that say othervise are partially/completely void by default and are not enforceable. Period. Someone mentioned steam accounts - games are tied to steam accounts and their sale/transfer is not covered by the judgement. However, steam account system can be construed as obstruction to the selling of software licenses and therefore would have to go, at least in EU.

[QUOTE=Niklas;36611891]I really hope this doesnt change steam to much. Imagine thousands of people selling their unused steam games for money.[/QUOTE] what is wrong with such a system? it happens in almost every single product-based market out there.

[QUOTE=BagMinge104;36621333]Pretty much every single market for products has a secondhand one, if the games market cannot survive this then it raises serious questions about how they are handling themselves in the first place. [editline]4th July 2012[/editline] Why does Valve deserve any sort of compensation if I resell something that I own? It's not theirs anymore.[/QUOTE] Because you're using their service to sell your license, seems pretty straight forward to me.

It won't affect steam. You are provided with a single license, which you use up when you attach the game to your account. Steam's business model wouldn't work if you could, at any time, just hand off your copy of the game. Even the most precursory of glances into the future there would make that painstakingly obvious.

Canada seems to be the middle ground here :v:

[QUOTE=zzaacckk;36605712]You understand steam is a United States based company?[/QUOTE] i want to visit steam

Our fellow elites are finally allowing this!

[QUOTE=Ericson666;36611442]Aaand this is going to fuck over a lot of companies[/QUOTE] How so? As in "Fuck we're going to lose a lot of money now." Since people can resell their software for lower prices? If so I agree.

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;36627085]How so? As in "Fuck we're going to lose a lot of money now." Since people can resell their software for lower prices? If so I agree.[/QUOTE] Because any money that they get is just a bonus, it's not like the gaming industry is already shaky.

[QUOTE=GunFox;36624406]It won't affect steam. You are provided with a single license, which you use up when you attach the game to your account. Steam's business model wouldn't work if you could, at any time, just hand off your copy of the game. Even the most precursory of glances into the future there would make that painstakingly obvious.[/QUOTE] They could allow you to sell your game trough steam, taking a cut themselfs, that'd work. And what you're saying isn't true either. What you use up is the license key, which attaches a license to your account. The license is still there, you just can't detach it from your steam account.

[QUOTE=GunFox;36624406] You are provided with a single license, which you use up when you attach the game to your account. [/QUOTE] Er, what? Could you explain how exactly one "uses up" a license? [editline]4th July 2012[/editline] Definitions: A software license [I]grants an end-user permission to use [...] software in ways where such a use would otherwise potentially constitute copyright infringement [...][/I] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license"](Wiki)[/URL] Copyright infringement [I]is the unauthorized use of works under copyright.[/I] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement"](Wiki)[/URL] It follows that usage of copyrighted software (ie a game) requires that the end-user possesses a license. And if the end-user possesses a license, it must be eligible for resale under EU law.

[QUOTE=mobrockers2;36627485]They could allow you to sell your game trough steam, taking a cut themselfs, that'd work. And what you're saying isn't true either. What you use up is the license key, which attaches a license to your account. The license is still there, you just can't detach it from your steam account.[/QUOTE] If you are legally allowed to sell your game, then they can't restrict the means by which you do it. They could indeed take a cut, but there would have to be other ways of doing it. It would be awful. Steam sales would almost immediately disappear. Why ever pay full retail price when, for virtually no additional effort, get a brand new copy of the game, straight from the source, for less money. No possibility of damage because you are downloading your new copy from their servers. You can't sell your steam key. You are subscribing to their service. It isn't a transferable status. Look at their agreements. It doesn't work like you think it does. At best, and I use this term loosely, they could theoretically allow you to sell the key, but Steam is in no way obligated to provide the new person a download, or access to their service. So you legally obtain a useless key.

[QUOTE=GunFox;36628152]If you are legally allowed to sell your game, then they can't restrict the means by which you do it. They could indeed take a cut, but there would have to be other ways of doing it. It would be awful. Steam sales would almost immediately disappear. Why ever pay full retail price when, for virtually no additional effort, get a brand new copy of the game, straight from the source, for less money. No possibility of damage because you are downloading your new copy from their servers. You can't sell your steam key. You are subscribing to their service. It isn't a transferable status. Look at their agreements. It doesn't work like you think it does. At best, and I use this term loosely, they could theoretically allow you to sell the key, but Steam is in no way obligated to provide the new person a download, or access to their service. So you legally obtain a useless key.[/QUOTE] No, as the key is not the license, the key is what allows you access to the license so they would be obligated to provide the new person access to the license if the key were sold.

SELLING STEAM GAMES CHEAP $$$$$ So if I contact Steam support saying I want to sell games, I can sue them if they say no. cool. [editline]5th July 2012[/editline] And no they can't require cuts, the EU ruling says that they have to provide downloads for the person you sell to as well.

[QUOTE=GunFox;36628152]If you are legally allowed to sell your game, then they can't restrict the means by which you do it. They could indeed take a cut, but there would have to be other ways of doing it. It would be awful. Steam sales would almost immediately disappear. Why ever pay full retail price when, for virtually no additional effort, get a brand new copy of the game, straight from the source, for less money. No possibility of damage because you are downloading your new copy from their servers. You can't sell your steam key. You are subscribing to their service. It isn't a transferable status. Look at their agreements. It doesn't work like you think it does. At best, and I use this term loosely, they could theoretically allow you to sell the key, but Steam is in no way obligated to provide the new person a download, or access to their service. So you legally obtain a useless key.[/QUOTE] Thats not how an EU court would view it, fancy words in their license won't get around it.

[QUOTE=TehMentos;36604981]This is awesome. But no, the EU is not awesome in general.[/QUOTE] I agree, EU is not awesome, but GODLY in general.

[QUOTE=GunFox;36624406]It won't affect steam. You are provided with a single license, which you use up when you attach the game to your account. Steam's business model wouldn't work if you could, at any time, just hand off your copy of the game. Even the most precursory of glances into the future there would make that painstakingly obvious.[/QUOTE] The point of this is, you can not restrict your product like this. Legally, steam has to allow you to transfer ownership over your games to anyone you want unlimited times. Online Passes can be sold just as well now. They legally have to transfer the online pass to another account if you say so.

[QUOTE=zzaacckk;36605712]You understand steam is a United States based company?[/QUOTE] How is that relevant?

[QUOTE=Bomimo;36632985]How is that relevant?[/QUOTE] It's not.

So does this mean the whole notion of "online passes" has been completely ass-fucked by the EU?

[QUOTE=Rct33;36632415]Thats not how an EU court would view it, fancy words in their license won't get around it.[/QUOTE] As I said before, when you buy a game on steam they could say it is a license upgrade and changes your original license(account), thus you would have to be allowed to transfer your account, however you cannot separate the parts of the account or transfer combine licences. [QUOTE=SEKCobra;36632580]The point of this is, you can not restrict your product like this. Legally, steam has to allow you to transfer ownership over your games to anyone you want unlimited times. Online Passes can be sold just as well now. They legally have to transfer the online pass to another account if you say so.[/QUOTE] See above, they could allow you to transfer ownership of your account, however you would be unable to extract or separate parts of the account for resale, as you only have a single license the account itself. [QUOTE=alien_guy;36633768]So does this mean the whole notion of "online passes" has been completely ass-fucked by the EU?[/QUOTE] Those were stupid to begin with, but can be evaded because the license upgrade is based on account not the ownership of the individual access key or disk.

[QUOTE=deadoon;36633786]As I said before, when you buy a game on steam they could say it is a license upgrade and changes your original license(account), thus you would have to be allowed to transfer your account, however you cannot separate the parts of the account or transfer combine licences. See above, they could allow you to transfer ownership of your account, however you would be unable to extract or separate parts of the account for resale, as you only have a single license the account itself. Those were stupid to begin with, but can be evaded because the license upgrade is based on account not the ownership of the individual access key or disk.[/QUOTE] Any 2$ lawyer would be able to argue that that'd be obstructing the sale of licenses.

[QUOTE=deadoon;36633786] See above, they could allow you to transfer ownership of your account, however you would be unable to extract or separate parts of the account for resale, as you only have a single license the account itself.[/QUOTE] uhm no i have several licenses on steam, its how they prevented shit before now. Also a "But we said it is X" defense DOES NOT WORK FOR FUCKS SAKE. LEGALLY. STEAM. HAS. TO. LET. US. SELL. SINGLE. GAMES. AT. ANY. POINT. There is no argument here, there is no "this is a different kind of license", you have a piece of software and you can sell it. If you have ever followed any legal thing in the history of ever, you would know that stupid excuses that you make up when playing pretend games to always win (or in RP terms: "powerplay") do not work in a legal battle.

[QUOTE=SEKCobra;36634379]uhm no i have several licenses on steam, its how they prevented shit before now. Also a "But we said it is X" defense DOES NOT WORK FOR FUCKS SAKE. LEGALLY. STEAM. HAS. TO. LET. US. SELL. SINGLE. GAMES. AT. ANY. POINT. There is no argument here, there is no "this is a different kind of license", you have a piece of software and you can sell it. If you have ever followed any legal thing in the history of ever, you would know that stupid excuses that you make up when playing pretend games to always win (or in RP terms: "powerplay") do not work in a legal battle.[/QUOTE] You do know how your account is set up right? When you buy something you quite literally are upgrading your account, it just changes a setting on their end to say that you have access something so it wouldn't be pretending if that is the actual process of receiving a game. You may be able to sell games which are still in their unsent or unactivated form as they are separate from your account in your inventory as they give people the chance to change those variables without a direct purchase, however.

People could abuse this, buy lots of games on sale and then sell them after the sale, making the whole idea redundant and potentially stop sales for good. This could mean bad things for digital distribution. [editline]5th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=zzaacckk;36605712]You understand steam is a United States based company?[/QUOTE] You trade in the EU, you comply with EU regulations no matter where you are based

[QUOTE=wakkydude;36634630]People could abuse this, buy lots of games on sale and then sell them after the sale, making the whole idea redundant and potentially stop sales for good. This could mean bad things for digital distribution. [editline]5th July 2012[/editline] You trade in the EU, you comply with EU regulations no matter where you are based[/QUOTE] Also this could cause valve to region restrict all games bought in Europe to Europe(they do it already for keys sold in Russia and Asia if I remember correctly now.) and remove sales from the european steam store.

[QUOTE=deadoon;36634705]Also this could cause valve to region restrict all games bought in Europe to Europe(they do it already for keys sold in Russia and Asia if I remember correctly now.) and remove sales from the european steam store.[/QUOTE] Doing that will just remind everyone of the 1$=1€ shitstorm and customers will drop like flies.