Anders Brevik declared sane, sentenced to at least 21 years in jail
122 replies, posted
[QUOTE=TestECull;37384772]That just makes it even more conclusive, in my mind, that he's a hopeless monster that shouldn't be in this world. The fact that he was declared sane [i]and still did what he did[/i]....I'm not sure where he came from but he needs to go back there posthaste. I suppose an endless stream of 21 year sentences will have to do, effectively a life sentence even if it isn't written down as one.
Oh he won't, and I put in bold why he won't. Someone like this is best disposed of permanently. Whether that's a bullet to the brain, being launched into deep space with a week's supply of essentials, or locked away in jail until natural causes does them in doesn't matter, as long as they never see the light of day again.
Oh there's no helping him. He'll never be a member of society. He's a shining example of why rehabilitation doesn't work for every criminal. He's one of those rare cases where there's no point in even trying.[/QUOTE]
are you a doctor
[editline]August 24th[/editline]
you're just kind of going "nope hes crazy we should just kill him now" and not really giving me any objective evidence for this beyond "he doesnt DESERVE their help"
Cone, he said "That just makes it even more conclusive, [B]in my mind[/B], that he's a hopeless monster..."
It's just an opinion. I'm inclined to agree with him though.
[QUOTE=Scotchair;37384932]Cone, he said "That just makes it even more conclusive, [B]in my mind[/B], that he's a hopeless monster..."
It's just an opinion. I'm inclined to agree with him though. If you disagree feel free to post why.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe anyone is totally beyond helping. perhaps I'm just too optimistic, but what I'm getting at is, he's probably going to be locked up for the rest of his life. while he's in the government's care, they might as well have a crack at making him less crazy. any positive change in his behavior would be a massive achievement, perhaps massive enough to pave the way for further changes.
I simply don't think it's fair for people to write him off as a lost case so soon. he may legally be sane, but I think it's fairly clear that he's got many issues left that - I hope - are within the capabilities of the Norwegian government.
[QUOTE=Scotchair;37384837]I'm a big supporter of the rehabilitation schemes in Scandinavian countries, they're proven to be incredibly effective...
However, I don't want this guy to be rehabilitated. If he's in there for life, with no chance of getting out... it seems like a waste of time and resources to give him the same opportunities as others who;'re going to be reintroduced to society.
I feel like he should be given the absolute bare essentials in prison.[/QUOTE]
They are trying to rehabilitate him.
Not that he could ever get out since he would be killed, but wouldn't it be nice if they got him to understand where he went wrong.
[QUOTE=Croix;37384961]They are trying to rehabilitate him.
Not that he could ever get out since he would be killed, but wouldn't it be nice if they got him to understand where he went wrong.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that he'd be killed as soon as he got out. the Norwegian people seem fairly unwilling to sink to his level, fortunately.
I think they'll have a really hard time helping him understand where he went wrong... purely because he feels he done something so right.
I know it might sound stupid, but right and wrong (or good and evil) are just points of view. He thinks what he done was completely necessary, and if he truly believes it then we're pretty powerless to tell him otherwise.
[QUOTE=manian112;37384665][T]http://static.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/selli2juttu2208MH_ul.jpg[/T]
[T]http://static.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/selli3juttu2208MH_ul.jpg[/T]
[T]http://static.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/selli1juttu2208MH_ul.jpg[/T]
His jail cell.[/QUOTE]
You missed the nicer areas of his cell:
[img]http://www.sydsvenskan.se/ScaledImages/704x396x1/Images-2012-8-23-sydb1d26.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.sydsvenskan.se/ScaledImages/704x396x1/Images-2012-8-23-sydb1d1d.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Scotchair;37385074]I think they'll have a really hard time helping him understand where he went wrong... purely because he feels he done something so right.
I know it might sound stupid, but right and wrong (or good and evil) are just points of view. He thinks what he done was completely necessary, and if he truly believes it then we're pretty powerless to tell him otherwise.[/QUOTE]
the objective facts are with us, which is why we call him crazy. if he were stating a fact and making assumptions off of it then that'd be fine, but what he's doing is stating something then creating a reality in which he is correct.
essentially, he's basing his point of view off of things that don't exist. you may not be able to tell him what to think, but you can most definitely say that he's making stuff up because that is most definitely true.
[QUOTE=KaIibos;37384692]go back to fast threads, stooge[/QUOTE]
Fast threads doesn't want him either.
Why are people angry that he gets put in a civilized 1st world prison instead of caged rape center?
As long as we desire bad upon others the crime will not stop. If your morals dictate that bad people should be raped and killed, then someone might actually get influenced by that and target the wrong person.
We paint ourselves as some moral perfections but when some case like this pops up we no longer have the ability to forgive and forget, instead we want head of someone we've never met. All that from the comfort of our chair. I'm glad in this case the judge knew better than just acting upon savage instincts.
Prisons like this is the future, not the privatized capitalist rape cages. Physical punishment like rape and violence rarely helps, instead the prisoner will either go insane or reoffend because he learned all the fucked up morals in his cell. The "hotel" prisons simply remove dangerous people from general public. They do not treat humans like animals. Even treating animals like that counts as animal cruelty. If done properly, places like this can teach morals and other values that quite a bit of criminals were missing because of various reasons. It can also help criminals who get out to get back on their feet. I heard it also provides education and skill training, which is a lot more useful than just pumping irons so that you can be stronger when you get out.
Sure you can argue if Brevik can be helped or not, but that's beyond the point. As long as he cannot harm anyone there is no reason why he should not be kept in a locked hotel room. It does not hurt you, it does not hurt him. Win win? Or do you crave for blood because you've been taught that punishment does the job? Note that if he cannot be rehabed, he cannot be fixed by hitting and raping him. All you want is to satisfy some deep desire for violence against other human beings. You're one step away from becoming a criminal. Maybe you won't act upon this, but some do and then someone gets hurt. You might think you're innocent because you did nothing, but you pass these morals on. Because of this someone not so sane will think that violence is OK as long as it has a justified reason and with a mental illness the reasoning is usually not what you'd think it is.
No matter how nice we pretend to be, we still can think of terrible ways to kill someone we think "deserves it".
Many terrorists and suicide bombers do what they do because they are brainwashed and consider us an enemy, thus the reasoning is justified. This is because our world works on punishing "bad" people, not helping them. Everyone's a judge, so don't cry when a mass murder happens. The murderer had it justified. If you can judge someone for rape and death by bullet, so can they.
I think some hundred years in the future we will drop this moral bias and society as a whole will be much better.
[QUOTE=LarparNar;37384636]He still doesn't have the ability to leave, go out with friends, and a lot more.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that he gives a shit that he won't be able to go outside.
He gets food, entertainment and doesn't have to work.
It's like heaven for him.
[QUOTE=J-RcZ;37385414]I don't think that he gives a shit that he won't be able to go outside.
He gets food, entertainment and doesn't have to work.
It's like heaven for him.[/QUOTE]
Everyone who works there should be Muslim immigrants.
[QUOTE=LarparNar;37384636]Please don't start this.
He still doesn't have the ability to leave, go out with friends, and a lot more.
It's not like everyone's life is determined by where you live, just imagine if you yourself were locked up in your home and unable to leave [I]ever.[/I]
I'm not saying you were complaining about how he will live, but a lot of people do, so I figured I'd just get my thoughts out as soon as possible.[/QUOTE]
Neither do the people he killed, or the people's lives he destroyed through paralysis and Post traumatic stress.
I agree with not treating criminals like cattle,but he literally will be living in a 3-star hotel that middle income families could barely afford.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;37385543]so are you saying he should get the death penalty or american-like prison treatment?
because neither of those solve anything other than suck off violent dicks
hell, most norwegian people are perfectly fine with his sentence, the ones begging for punishment/death are americans and brits[/QUOTE]
Yes. I support the death penalty for calculated premeditated mass murder and terrorism.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;37385586]and i dont because the death penalty is an outdated barbaric form of punishment that benefits literally no one[/QUOTE]
Well that's not exactly true.
Murder is barbaric anyway, so if you wanted to use the "eye for an eye" it is the most equal form of punishment compared to the action.
You could also approach it attributively, and say that actions like mass murder deserve higher punishment and serve as a retributive action for those killed.
Thirdly, you could see it as a deterrent. (However, I believe it isn't, look at America, no deterrent there at all)
Fourthly, it benefits society as it removes dangerous people permanently.
[QUOTE=Foxconn;37384712]You're late.
2083 Manifesto - his ideologies and reasons are well explained there.[/QUOTE]
wow serial killers and mass murderers love writing manifestos don't they?
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
[QUOTE=Cypher_09;37385630]An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.[/QUOTE]
No.
It makes the guilty blind.
We don't state execute random people, so only those who have wronged are blind. Simple really.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;37385632][/QUOTE]
Why does ~age~ come into anything, it doesn't matter when it was conceptualised.
How does it not help anyone. I just told you, it can be seen as a retributive punishment, associated with deserving. Many people believe that evil crimes deserve more punishment than jail. We put people who steal handbags in jail, or who commit fraud. Some people believe that a higher punishment is needed for those who offend.
Some people again, argue for a deterrant, i was merely saying I don't buy into the argument.
Prisons allow those who commit murder a higher quality of life than their victims. How is does that fit in with a conception of justice?
Justice is not for law enforcement to deal out - It's a pretty word for 'vengeance', really. The role of law enforcement should be to protect people and maintain order - That's all. If that means some people have to be locked up for life, so be it, but there's no excuse for treating them poorly as punishment.
If someone were to harm or kill a member of my family without reasonable justification, I'd likely hunt them like animals. But that'd be personal. It's never personal for a government, and it should never become personal.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;37385660]except we do, exoneration after death has happened around 300 times in the last 10 years or so, that or it was just last year, fuck if im gonna look up the statistics right now[/QUOTE]
The number of exonerated murderers is grossly incalculable compared to the number of correctly identified murderers.
And if you want to be all high and mighty about unnecessary innocent death, lets stop poverty now and make sure people have free universal medical care. This line of argument doesn't work when you look at the atrocities committed in illegal wars or poverty and so on.
I don't think that cell is a hotel. It's just enough for a guy to hang on at the end of the rope and just let him stay there. Not cruel enough to traumatise/make someone insane.
I'm sure the Daily Heil will come up with an article about this "lavishness".
[QUOTE=redhaven;37385739]I don't think that cell is a hotel. It's just enough for a guy to hang on at the end of the rope and just let him stay there. Not cruel enough to traumatise/make someone insane.
I'm sure the Daily Heil will come up with an article about this "lavishness".[/QUOTE]
It's a palace compared to a wooden box 6 feet under, wouldn't you say?
[QUOTE=Benf199105;37385640]No.
It makes the guilty blind.
We don't state execute random people, so only those who have wronged are blind. Simple really.
Why does ~age~ come into anything, it doesn't matter when it was conceptualised.
How does it not help anyone. I just told you, it can be seen as a retributive punishment, associated with deserving. Many people believe that evil crimes deserve more punishment than jail. We put people who steal handbags in jail, or who commit fraud. Some people believe that a higher punishment is needed for those who offend.
Some people again, argue for a deterrant, i was merely saying I don't buy into the argument.
[B]Prisons allow those who commit murder a higher quality of life than their victims. How is does that fit in with a conception of justice?[/B][/QUOTE]
Do you never leave the house or something?
He's trapped in his cell for life, no matter how nice it is. He can't leave, he can't go out, and he won't be able to interact that much without using the internet.
[QUOTE=ShazzyFreak0;37385775]Do you never leave the house or something?
He's trapped in his cell for life, no matter how nice it is. He can't leave, he can't go out, and he won't be able to interact that much without using the internet.[/QUOTE]
Prison > Death
[QUOTE=Benf199105;37385688]The number of exonerated murderers is grossly incalculable compared to the number of correctly identified murderers.
And if you want to be all high and mighty about unnecessary innocent death, lets stop poverty now and make sure people have free universal medical care. This line of argument doesn't work when you look at the atrocities committed in illegal wars or poverty and so on.[/QUOTE]
Well, it does work, and the two examples you've given are so beyond removing the death penalty in terms of cost and difficulty it's unreal (and free at the point of care universal health care has been implemented in many western nations anyway). You also seem to be saying that if we can't stop all suffering of the innocent in one go, why bother trying to do anything less?
The death penalty is a huge hypocrisy (condemning people for deciding that other's lives should end by deciding to end theirs) and also goes against a person's human rights (the preservation of which should be a cornerstone of any society). And I think in the end of the day that it is important to remember that Brevik is a human being (not a subhuman, or whatever words people throw around) and that humans can do terrible things.
[QUOTE=LarparNar;37384636]Please don't start this.
He still doesn't have the ability to leave, go out with friends, and a lot more.
It's not like everyone's life is determined by where you live, just imagine if you yourself were locked up in your home and unable to leave [I]ever.[/I]
I'm not saying you were complaining about how he will live, but a lot of people do, so I figured I'd just get my thoughts out as soon as possible.[/QUOTE]
Lmao at people rating this dumb. Imagine if you went to jail and you was put in an empty cell and getting daily beatings by guards. Yeah sounds fucking amazing.
[QUOTE=Cone;37384918]are you a doctor
[editline]August 24th[/editline]
you're just kind of going "nope hes crazy we should just kill him now" and not really giving me any objective evidence for this beyond "he doesnt DESERVE their help"[/QUOTE]
I never once said he should be killed. I just said he should be off the streets for good. How that happens I don't really care. it'd be great if my entire posts were read before people replied to them...
[QUOTE=FreakyMe;37384798]
He came from society, with beliefs formed in interactions with that society. Killing him would accomplish nothing - we can only learn from him.[/quote] Learn what, that he's got no sense of right and wrong? By all accounts he was normal right up until he started plotting some domestic terrorism, and he thinks his actions were in the right.
I said I didn't care what they did with him as long as he's off the streets anyway. God I wish FP still had the Bad Reading rating.
[QUOTE=Cone;37384957]I don't believe anyone is totally beyond helping. perhaps I'm just too optimistic, but what I'm getting at is, he's probably going to be locked up for the rest of his life. while he's in the government's care, they might as well have a crack at making him less crazy. any positive change in his behavior would be a massive achievement, perhaps massive enough to pave the way for further changes.
I simply don't think it's fair for people to write him off as a lost case so soon. he may legally be sane, but I think it's fairly clear that he's got many issues left that - I hope - are within the capabilities of the Norwegian government.[/QUOTE]
The crimes he committed, the way he committed them, and the fact that he shows not a single hint of remorse for what he did to all those people and their families, is conclusive proof to me that there is no helping him. He will never be a productive member of society. He will always be an unstable monster willing to kill hundreds of people because they hold differing political ideals. How they keep him off the streets I don't care, he just needs to be off the streets for good.
Not everyone can be rehabilitated. Breivik is just such a person.
[QUOTE=Benf199105;37385640]
How does it not help anyone. I just told you, [B]it can be seen as a retributive punishment[/B], associated with deserving. Many people believe that evil crimes deserve more punishment than jail. We put people who steal handbags in jail, or who commit fraud. Some people believe that a higher punishment is needed for those who offend. [/QUOTE]
Because this kind of line of thinking has worked so well for countries like America.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;37385826]Well, it does work, and the two examples you've given are so beyond removing the death penalty in terms of cost and difficulty it's unreal (and free at the point of care universal health care has been implemented in many western nations anyway). You also seem to be saying that if we can't stop all suffering of the innocent in one go, why bother trying to do anything less?
The death penalty is a huge hypocrisy (condemning people for deciding that other's lives should end by deciding to end theirs) and also goes against a person's human rights (the preservation of which should be a cornerstone of any society). And I think in the end of the day that it is important to remember that Brevik is a human being (not a subhuman, or whatever words people throw around) and that humans can do terrible things.[/QUOTE]
I'm implying something similar yes.
I'm saying that if we seek to end the death penalty with the argument "innocent people are killed unnecessarily", then we are saying that innocent unnecessary death is wrong, and are thus committed to ending all unnecessary death where feasible; poverty and war is feasible to stop; we could easily wipe out debts and pump the billions of dollars we use for useless shit in the west to helping others. But we don't, so it appears we aren't really committed to stopping these deaths.
Also, I disagree with the hypocrisy. I think of the state like the Leviathan, as an arbiter, and the state enforces rules under coercion, and if we decide not to be coerced we are removed from that society. The key point is that its seen time and time again, that prison categorically DOES NOT rehabilitate, look at the crime statistics for people who are paroled. Now whether this is purely environmental or a failing of the prison system is a different point altogether, but the core issue is that prison does not work, and actually ends up making people worse, with many people saying that you go in a petty criminal and come out a hardened thief.
And the cornerstone of human rights argument: well. What did Breivk do to those people he killed? Removed their human rights in the most brutal fashion. All of his victims were HUMAN BEINGS TOO. Does everyone forget this? People who argue against the death penalty seem to forget that this man forcibly ended countless lives, lives of other people who were young and innocent. This does not fit with a conception of justice.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;37385842]illegal wars and poverty have fuck-all to do with the privatized prisons of the us and the uk
any murders by the state completely outweighs the "correct" death penalties
an innocent person was put to death, for no reason, that doesn't sit right with anyone.[/QUOTE]
Think logically about what you are claiming.
Firstly, the state is not "murdering" people. It is executing criminals, this is not just a linguistic turn, but a key point. It is legally removing people from society that are a danger to other members of society. Each to count for one, and none more than one; thus the life of one criminal is not comparable to the lives of 60 dead citizens.
An innocent person put to death; interesting, what do we call the starving dead, or the poor blown up in wars? Interesting that we aren't "murdering" the poor by crippling them with debt and stripping their countries of resources (see china's actions in africa), but instead we are "murdering" a criminal who in cold blood shot down 50+ people.
Reeks of double standards.
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