• Anders Brevik declared sane, sentenced to at least 21 years in jail
    122 replies, posted
how the hell can you complain about double standards when you're the one creating a separate artificial category for when the state kills someone as opposed to when an individual does before the act, there was a person the agent does the act now there is one less person there's a causal chain that starts from the agent doing the act and finishes with the person dying call it murder, call it execution, the same thing is happening
[QUOTE=squids_eye;37384605]That actually sounds like a pretty nice place to live. [editline]24th August 2012[/editline] Yeah I know, I just wanted to say that before someone was all "21 years is not enough for that monster!"[/QUOTE] Be glad It isn't the kind of prison that Pablo Escobar was in.
[QUOTE=Benf199105;37385905]Also, I disagree with the hypocrisy. I think of the state like the Leviathan, as an arbiter, and the state enforces rules under coercion, and if we decide not to be coerced we are removed from that society. The key point is that its seen time and time again, that prison categorically DOES NOT rehabilitate, look at the crime statistics for people who are paroled. Now whether this is purely environmental or a failing of the prison system is a different point altogether, but the core issue is that prison does not work, and actually ends up making people worse, with many people saying that you go in a petty criminal and come out a hardened thief.[/QUOTE] lmao do you even know what the fuck hobbes' real point was? he was writing in the 17th century where execution (and autocratic rule) was just a normal thing so obviously he would have used execution as an example. the leviathan template doesn't require execution, it can be transposed into 2012 with our more civilized form of punishments and incentives. also you're wrong about rehab not helping recidivism, please read: [url]http://scholar.googleusercontent.com/scholar?q=cache:XRGs2OYrrD8J:scholar.google.com[/url]
[QUOTE=Benf199105;37385905]I'm implying something similar yes. I'm saying that if we seek to end the death penalty with the argument "innocent people are killed unnecessarily", then we are saying that innocent unnecessary death is wrong, and are thus committed to ending all unnecessary death where feasible; poverty and war is feasible to stop; we could easily wipe out debts and pump the billions of dollars we use for useless shit in the west to helping others. But we don't, so it appears we aren't really committed to stopping these deaths.[/quote] Whilst 'absolute' poverty probably could fixed one day, you are never going to remove 'relative' poverty, but at best make it more comfortable (something again that western nations outside of the US have strived to do). Western nations already donate billions in terms of aid to poorer nations, but it doesn't fix the problem, and money alone never will. War is also impossible to stop, and will be as long as humanity comes into conflict with each other. We can use systems and agreements to limit the extent of war, but it's a problem that will never go away. Crime will also never stop, so creating a system to control and prevent it through things like education, urban regeneration and social welfare, as well as things like a robust, fair police force and judicial system, and a prison system focused on rehabilitation and education/training (or at least in my opinion, anyway), not focused on misguided but understandable attempts at vengeance and constant punishment. [quote]Also, I disagree with the hypocrisy. I think of the state like the Leviathan, as an arbiter, and the state enforces rules under coercion, and if we decide not to be coerced we are removed from that society. The key point is that its seen time and time again, that prison categorically DOES NOT rehabilitate, look at the crime statistics for people who are paroled. Now whether this is purely environmental or a failing of the prison system is a different point altogether, but the core issue is that prison does not work, and actually ends up making people worse, with many people saying that you go in a petty criminal and come out a hardened thief. [/quote] The rehabilitation rate in Norway is far higher than the US's system, and this is because the US prison system is abysmal. The UK's isn't particularly great either. [quote]And the cornerstone of human rights argument: well. What did Breivk do to those people he killed? Removed their human rights in the most brutal fashion. All of his victims were HUMAN BEINGS TOO. Does everyone forget this? People who argue against the death penalty seem to forget that this man forcibly ended countless lives, lives of other people who were young and innocent. This does not fit with a conception of justice. [/quote] It doesn't fit with the idea of 'eye for an eye' justice, but that isn't the only type of justice in the world. Justice should be about what's best for everyone involved, which includes the victims and their relatives, the guilty and also society as a whole. How that's achieved is subjective - we will all have different views on it. Human rights are important though, and that is why we do punish those who infringe or try to remove those rights from other people. But they shouldn't be considered relative or subjective - they should be absolute, and the state should strive to protect them at all costs. But I think as well we need to learn how essential they are and what it's like to loose them, because only by improving people's understanding of how important they are can we help them preserve other's rights.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;37386165]War is also impossible to stop, and will be as long as humanity comes into conflict with each other. We can use systems and agreements to limit the extent of war, but it's a problem that will never go away.[/QUOTE] Not true. [editline]24th August 2012[/editline] War has been in massive decline since 1945.
[QUOTE=Benf199105;37385905]poverty and war is feasible to stop; we could easily wipe out debts and pump the billions of dollars we use for useless shit in the west to helping others. But we don't, so it appears we aren't really committed to stopping these deaths. [/QUOTE] You seem to believe 'people' is one unanimous term. All the money in the world couldn't feed everyone permanently. Why do you think countries slip in and out of poverty? Because we stop giving them money? or because of an ever changing climate that lays waste to crops? Oh no it's just selfish people, that's what. War? Really? Oh sorry, I think you need to learn that we don't (usually) go to war for a bit of fun. It's not like wars are started by poverty, power, greed, clash of religion and ideology, land, wealth, freedom, retribution, revenge, politics, alliances, protection misunderstandings or anything like that. Shit, I forgot that we could just end war by asking everyone to calm down a little jesus fuck. Debt? Holy shit I forgot we all have infinate money and there isn't a capitalist/mixed economy set-up for a reason right? Oh no it's just THE MAN being selfish with all his trillions. Yes there are rich people, and there are clever people. Bill Gates couldn't even pay off the debt of Brazil let alone everyone ever. Sure you can make a better world if everyone bought just what they needed to live for one year and give everything else away but jesus its not going to work forever. [QUOTE=Benf199105;37385905]And the cornerstone of human rights argument: well. What did Breivk do to those people he killed? Removed their human rights in the most brutal fashion. All of his victims were HUMAN BEINGS TOO. Does everyone forget this? People who argue against the death penalty seem to forget that this man forcibly ended countless lives, lives of other people who were young and innocent. This does not fit with a conception of justice.[/QUOTE] Killing somebody doesn't bring their victims back to life. I'm sorry if you're 'hurt', but locking him behind bars or shooting him in the face won't make a difference to anything. Ever. It doesn't matter if the person his killed was 100 murderers or 100 children. Nothing would change. We don't have a machine that turns executed murderers into adorable children. [QUOTE=Benf199105;37385905]An innocent person put to death; interesting, what do we call the starving dead, or the poor blown up in wars? Interesting that we aren't "murdering" the poor by crippling them with debt and stripping their countries of resources (see china's actions in africa), but instead we are "murdering" a criminal who in cold blood shot down 50+ people.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah I forgot we GIVE them debt. Jesus how could I be so blind we clearly just ramp up that debt every day and it's not like theyve bought stuff with money they borrowed and are paying it back, and it's not like we've reduced the debt countless times and some even wiping it out. But man, so glad you fixed that problem by saying we do it to them by golly.
[QUOTE=Scotchair;37384837]I'm a big supporter of the rehabilitation schemes in Scandinavian countries, they're proven to be incredibly effective... However, I don't want this guy to be rehabilitated. If he's in there for life, with no chance of getting out... it seems like a waste of time and resources to give him the same opportunities as others who;'re going to be reintroduced to society. I feel like he should be given the absolute bare essentials in prison.[/QUOTE] In Norway, we consider that the bare essential.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;37386175]Not true. [editline]24th August 2012[/editline] War has been in massive decline since 1945.[/QUOTE] No it hasn't. It's just been in massive decline from rich nations. [editline]24th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=brainmaster;37386231]In Norway, we consider that the bare essential.[/QUOTE] What are you talking about, three star hotels don't have toilets, or tables or a window to look out of! Those are 5 star luxuries!
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;37386248]No it hasn't. It's just been in massive decline from rich nations.[/QUOTE] First no, you're wrong, even in poor countries war has declined. Second, even if the rate of war in poor countries had remained constant, a reduction of warfare among rich countries is still an improvement. Go read a history book, a few hundred years ago war broke out in europe on average [I]twice a year[/I]. There hasn't been a single conflict in western Europe since 1945, and in Eastern Europe there's only been the Kosovo war and the Soviet invasion of Hungary.
[QUOTE=brainmaster;37386231]In Norway, we consider that the bare essential.[/QUOTE] Just to extend on my situation with this. I knew people on the island, fortunately for me, I didn't loose anyone that day. My father was also only a few blocks away from the explosion. Several of my closest have lost their best friends to this man. I don't hate him, but I hate the actions this man took, but he's living in a different reality, he [i]really[/i] believes that there is a secret pact between Muslims and left-wing parties in Norway, and the rest of Europe (or Eurabia/Eussr as he calls it). He [i]really[/i] believes that all 1 billion of muslims are inherently evil and are set dead straight on ruining the lifes of Christians, and taking over Europe. He [i][b]really believes this[/b][/i]. He lives in a totally different reality than the rest of us. This is why I can't hate this man. I pity him, that he can't live in a normal reality where Norway is one of the number #1 countries to live in. Where immigrants are integrated into society so they can start giving back to society, just like every other Norwegian. Where they adopt our way of life with a touch of their own ways. This is development. I like it. Anders B. Breivik will remain in rehabilitation institutions for the rest of his life. He is not getting out. There was a saying going around in the weeks after the attacks, in Norwegian it's "Hodet kaldt, hjertet varmt. Kjærlighet over alt.", which translates into "Keep your head cool, your heart warm. Love above all else." This is very relevant to the Norwegian people.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;37386307]First no, you're wrong, even in poor countries war has declined. Second, even if the rate of war in poor countries had remained constant, a reduction of warfare among rich countries is still an improvement. Go read a history book, a few hundred years ago war broke out in europe on average [I]twice a year[/I]. There hasn't been a single conflict in western Europe since 1945, and in Eastern Europe there's only been the Kosovo war and the Soviet invasion of Hungary.[/QUOTE] i feel that the main reason war hasn't broken out for so long is because war isn't economically viable between any two countries that are worth a shit given trade has expanded so exponentially over the past century that literally every western nation is dependent upon another to keep itself sustained that isn't to say that war will ever be totally removed
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;37386370]i feel that the main reason war hasn't broken out for so long is because war isn't economically viable between any two countries that are worth a shit given trade has expanded so exponentially over the past century that literally every western nation is dependent upon another to keep itself sustained that isn't to say that war will ever be totally removed[/QUOTE] "Positive addiction" is the phrase for that. Where everybody gains from being dependent on each other.
[QUOTE=Lord of Ears;37386370]i feel that the main reason war hasn't broken out for so long is because war isn't economically viable between any two countries that are worth a shit given trade has expanded so exponentially over the past century that literally every western nation is dependent upon another to keep itself sustained that isn't to say that war will ever be totally removed[/QUOTE] that's one of the causes, yes. there's even a phrase - [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_peace]the Capitalist Peace[/url] [editline]24th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=brainmaster;37386381]"Positive addiction" is the phrase for that. Where everybody gains from being dependent on each other.[/QUOTE] Also known as Positive-Sum Games.
[QUOTE=TestECull;37385857]I never once said he should be killed. I just said he should be off the streets for good. How that happens I don't really care. it'd be great if my entire posts were read before people replied to them...[/QUOTE] it's either that, launching him into space, or doing what they're already doing. your post was either pointless or stupid, pick your poison. [QUOTE=TestECull;37385857]The crimes he committed, the way he committed them, and the fact that he shows not a single hint of remorse for what he did to all those people and their families, is conclusive proof to me that there is no helping him. He will never be a productive member of society. He will always be an unstable monster willing to kill hundreds of people because they hold differing political ideals. How they keep him off the streets I don't care, he just needs to be off the streets for good. Not everyone can be rehabilitated. Breivik is just such a person.[/QUOTE] again, you are not qualified to make such a statement. at least when I say that we should help there's nothing to lose by doing so. if we did what you wanted to do, we could condemn a potentially useful member of society to life in a cell, and I just don't think that risk is worth what little reward there is.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;37386175]Not true. [editline]24th August 2012[/editline] War has been in massive decline since 1945.[/QUOTE] By 'impossible to stop', I meant 'War will always exist in some capacity'. Hence why I then mentioned we can limit the extent of war (and I should have added that we can limit the rate it occurs) using systems such as the UN or regional bodies, or agreements such as trade, treaties, etc.
[QUOTE=Camundongo;37386517]By 'impossible to stop', I meant 'War will always exist in some capacity'. Hence why I then mentioned we can limit the extent of war (and I should have added that we can limit the rate it occurs) using systems such as the UN or regional bodies, or agreements such as trade, treaties, etc.[/QUOTE] How do you know? What if the European peace just expands?
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;37386522]How do you know? What if the European peace just expands?[/QUOTE] Well, that is true, I suppose. It just seems unlikely if you ever have two conflicting ideologies existing that peace would be guaranteed, and considering the number of ideologies that exist in the world...
Imagine if after ten years of prison, or twenty years, he comes out as being utterly repentant and mortified at what he did, and psychological analysis shows it to be sincere. what an absolute boon for rehabilitative justice that would be.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;37386769]Imagine if after ten years of prison, or twenty years, he comes out as being utterly repentant and mortified at what he did, and psychological analysis shows it to be sincere. what an absolute boon for rehabilitative justice that would be.[/QUOTE] Some american will travel to norway and try and kill him if that happens I'm sure.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;37386769]Imagine if after ten years of prison, or twenty years, he comes out as being utterly repentant and mortified at what he did, and psychological analysis shows it to be sincere. what an absolute boon for rehabilitative justice that would be.[/QUOTE] I think if he realizes he will commit suicide. I couldn't live with killing 77 people.
[QUOTE=brainmaster;37387046]I think if he realizes he will commit suicide. I couldn't live with killing 77 people.[/QUOTE] technically he wouldn't have been rehabilitated if he were suicidal, he would have just moved onto a mental illness that's easier to manage.
[QUOTE=Cone;37387072]technically he wouldn't have been rehabilitated if he were suicidal, he would have just moved onto a mental illness that's easier to manage.[/QUOTE] Good point.
[QUOTE=manian112;37384665][T]http://static.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/selli2juttu2208MH_ul.jpg[/T] [T]http://static.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/selli3juttu2208MH_ul.jpg[/T] [T]http://static.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/selli1juttu2208MH_ul.jpg[/T] His jail cell.[/QUOTE] Looks like they've stripped it of everything they usually give lesser criminals.
[IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/16j4lxt.jpg[/IMG]
I still don't understand why people want this guy alive after doing what he did. His life has no worth at all. I guess I am just not as soft on people.
[QUOTE=BenJammin';37389367]I still don't understand why people want this guy alive after doing what he did. His life has no worth at all. I guess I am just not as soft on people.[/QUOTE] None of the people he killed deserved to die, neither does he. He is still a human being, just in the need of some proper discipline.
[QUOTE=BenJammin';37389367]I still don't understand why people want this guy alive after doing what he did. His life has no worth at all. I guess I am just not as soft on people.[/QUOTE] Civilized people don't hate people, they hate what they do, something america should take note of.
[QUOTE=BenJammin';37389367]I still don't understand why people want this guy alive after doing what he did. His life has no worth at all. I guess I am just not as soft on people.[/QUOTE] That's not the point. I would hope (and I would hope that you hope) that I am not so low as a human being as to desire state-sanctioned executions or the current state of our American prisons applied to all prisoners in the world.
[QUOTE=BenJammin';37389367]I still don't understand why people want this guy alive after doing what he did. His life has no worth at all. I guess I am just not as soft on people.[/QUOTE] well, how about this rationalize why he should be killed [I]without[/I] basing your argument in emotion or a non-demonstrable notion of what his life is worth
Hey I'm all for threating him as humanly as possible and I completely agree with the US Prison system being fucked up, but was it really necessary to build a special deluxe suit just for him as opposed to him getting the same treatment as the other inmates? I'm sure he can do fine without a motherfucking air hockey table. Unless I'm completely ignorant of the Norwegian penitentiary and every inmate in Norway gets a special 6-room cell built specially for them.
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