Injured Ukrainian activists disappearing from Kyiv Hospitals.
80 replies, posted
[QUOTE=tr00per7;43637035]I know, perish the thought someone would be more concerned with their safety than rights.[/QUOTE]
Dude, he's just saying that if everybody had that mindset we would still be oppressed by monarchies with no freedom of speech, etc.
[QUOTE=splenda;43638905]They began to take people from their cars too.
[IMG]http://puu.sh/6uSdJ.PNG[/IMG][/QUOTE]
This is fucking terrifying.
Imagine this happening in YOUR country, on a massive scale.
My sympathies go out to any Ukraine Face punchers, you guys better skidaddle.
[QUOTE=Beafman;43635742]Make a run for it? FIGHT THE POWER hasn't made more sense than now![/QUOTE]
Hrm, Let's say I was a Ukrainian.
After hearing about this my choices are.
A. Move out of the country to greener pastures and continue my life.
or
B. Fight against this, get hospitalized, and risk getting "ghosted" by some secret force.
Sorry I would say A. Honestly, more power to you for picking B. but I don't want to get vanished.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;43639201]Hrm, Let's say I was a Ukrainian.
After hearing about this my choices are.
A. Move out of the country to greener pastures and continue my life.
or
B. Fight against this, get hospitalized, and risk getting "ghosted" by some secret force.
Sorry I would say A. Honestly, more power to you for picking B. but I don't want to get vanished.[/QUOTE]
Well my option would be to fight, I wouldn't want an entire populace subjected to some cruel government.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;43639201]Hrm, Let's say I was a Ukrainian.
After hearing about this my choices are.
A. Move out of the country to greener pastures and continue my life.
or
B. Fight against this, get hospitalized, and risk getting "ghosted" by some secret force.
Sorry I would say A. Honestly, more power to you for picking B. but I don't want to get vanished.[/QUOTE]
Because moving out of the country and leaving everything behind is so easy to do.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;43639201]Hrm, Let's say I was a Ukrainian.
After hearing about this my choices are.
A. Move out of the country to greener pastures and continue my life.
or
B. Fight against this, get hospitalized, and risk getting "ghosted" by some secret force.
Sorry I would say A. Honestly, more power to you for picking B. but I don't want to get vanished.[/QUOTE]
even if this is the more widely held opinion it's not like it's an even remotely praiseworthy one
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;43639201]Hrm, Let's say I was a Ukrainian.
After hearing about this my choices are.
A. Move out of the country to greener pastures and continue my life.
or
B. Fight against this, get hospitalized, and risk getting "ghosted" by some secret force.
Sorry I would say A. Honestly, more power to you for picking B. but I don't want to get vanished.[/QUOTE]
I can understand people having this opinion but sometimes you cannot just run and expect partisans to appear from out of nowhere. Sometimes YOU have to stand and fight and BE THE CHANGE.
These last few weeks have really proven just how corrupt the Ukrainian government is
I think lots of people knew it before but I'm baffled that they would go to acting like an authoritarian police state in just a few days
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;43639201]Hrm, Let's say I was a Ukrainian.
After hearing about this my choices are.
A. Move out of the country to greener pastures and continue my life.
or
B. Fight against this, get hospitalized, and risk getting "ghosted" by some secret force.
Sorry I would say A. Honestly, more power to you for picking B. but I don't want to get vanished.[/QUOTE]
Gotta fight for what's right.
[QUOTE=tr00per7;43637035]I know, perish the thought someone would be more concerned with their safety than rights.
In fact, why don you fuck off to ukraine and start protesting if its so easy.
Its almost as if "not wanting to die" is a unnatural human instinct to you.[/QUOTE]
This is some grade-A missing the fucking point if I ever seen any.
Holy shit.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43638819]Our brains are wired, or at least taught to respect people of power, and when it comes to their orders, follow them.
You should take a gander at the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment]Milgram experiment[/url], for a better idea of how it works.[/QUOTE]
I just can't imagine something like this ever happening in the USA.
I just can't see young American military soldiers basically kidnapping other Americans, especially considering they used to be an average citizen.
[QUOTE=>VLN<;43639749]I just can't imagine something like this ever happening in the USA.
I just can't see young American military soldiers basically kidnapping other Americans, especially considering they used to be an average citizen.[/QUOTE]
??
Ukrainian police and military used to be average citizens as well
It's never impossible for shit to turn sour
[QUOTE=KommradKommisar;43639702]Gotta fight for what's right.[/QUOTE]
Not really. What's right for someone might be getting their family out of there and letting the place crumble. No one has an intrinsic responsibility to fight for anything.
I just imagine it'd be more difficult in general for them, at least for police officers and Privates in the military. But this is speculation and even then I'm sure a majority would execute orders just fine.
And people ask me why I prepare for "The Happening". Not to try and make this some political gun debate, but this is exactly the reason why I believe in gun ownership.
The fact that the government is willing to solve it's political issues by using bullets and violence against dissenters disturbs me, and this just goes to show that the current government is absolutely terrible.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;43639858]And people ask me why I prepare for "The Happening". Not to try and make this some political gun debate, but this is exactly the reason why I believe in gun ownership.
The fact that the government is willing to solve it's political issues by using bullets and violence against dissenters disturbs me, and this just goes to show that the current government is absolutely terrible.[/QUOTE]
Guns would just escalate the situation. You shoot an officer, they're going to rain shit all over you and your protesting buddies which will result in even more death and division among the activists because some won't support killing officers and others will, effectively spawning 'rogue' activist groups that don't affiliate with anybody and are just bent on causing chaos to whatever party they are against.
Guns in a riot is literally fuel in a fire. Thank god the Ukrainians don't have a lot of firearms, if at all.
[QUOTE=Melnek;43640029]Guns would just escalate the situation. You shoot an officer, they're going to rain shit all over you and your protesting buddies which will result in even more death and division among the activists because some won't support killing officers and others will, effectively spawning 'rogue' activist groups that don't affiliate with anybody and are just bent on causing chaos to whatever party they are against.
Guns in a riot is literally fuel in a fire. Thank god the Ukrainians don't have a lot of firearms, if at all.[/QUOTE]
At this point yes it would, assuming you throw guns into it right now. Guns can work pretty well as a deterrent, an armed population is a lot harder to control than an unarmed one.
I feel like it's really easy to say you'd be fighting and protesting if you were there, but after seeing those streams and videos, and hearing about these government crackdowns, I wouldn't blame any Ukrainians that don't go protesting immediately.
People are being injured and even dying for their rights, its no wonder the fighting is so intense, ive seen a video of a camera man being beaten for filming the clashes, Its disgraceful.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43639800]Not really. What's right for someone might be getting their family out of there and letting the place crumble. No one has an intrinsic responsibility to fight for anything.[/QUOTE]
Glad nobody in history had your mindset at heart
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;43635713]Hey, Ukrainian FPers that can still see this.
If I were you I would start making a run for it.[/QUOTE]
A slav running away from a revolution? Impossible.
[QUOTE=Melnek;43640029]Guns would just escalate the situation. You shoot an officer, they're going to rain shit all over you and your protesting buddies which will result in even more death and division among the activists because some won't support killing officers and others will, effectively spawning 'rogue' activist groups that don't affiliate with anybody and are just bent on causing chaos to whatever party they are against.
Guns in a riot is literally fuel in a fire. Thank god the Ukrainians don't have a lot of firearms, if at all.[/QUOTE]
Guns are the equalizer in a citizens vs. the corrupt government situation like this apparently is. They allow the citizens a fighting chance against a force that is better armed and better trained. It also is supposed to act as a deterrent for this kind of behavior from the government because pissing off armed citizens is a bad idea unless you know for certain you can crush them easily. This is what the second amendment exists for, among other things.
Honestly, at this point, they should be getting their guns ready. There are already protestor casualties and kidnappings so the government is clearly willing to kill and vanish civilians in order to silence dissent and restore order. The time for peaceful resolution has unfortunately passed.
[QUOTE=Kuro.;43641632]Guns are the equalizer in a citizens vs. the corrupt government situation like this apparently is. They allow the citizens a fighting chance against a force that is better armed and better trained. It also is supposed to act as a deterrent for this kind of behavior from the government because pissing off armed citizens is a bad idea unless you know for certain you can crush them easily. This is what the second amendment exists for, among other things.
Honestly, at this point, they should be getting their guns ready. There are already protestor casualties and kidnappings so the government is clearly willing to kill and vanish civilians in order to silence dissent and restore order. The time for peaceful resolution has unfortunately passed.[/QUOTE]
If the protesters start using guns then the authority will have complete rights to scatter the revolution with [b]anything[/b] they want (tanks, BTRs, whatever you want).
No matter how many guns protesters might have: the police is always much better trained, much more numerous and better equipped.
The reason protesters never use guns is to maintain the situation where the goverment has no rights to kill them all. Right now they are "weak hungry people pissed with their goverment" and not armed criminals. This brings the support to their side.
If a shot is fired cops won't hesistate and the global society won't be able to protect the protesters, as destroying them will be a question of life and death for cops.
[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]
I do believe that if protesters wanted they would bring a shitton of guns there. They are not stupid enough though.
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43639800]Not really. What's right for someone might be getting their family out of there and letting the place crumble. No one has an intrinsic responsibility to fight for anything.[/QUOTE]
god damn you are an idiot
its not as simple as just running away from you're home, you're basically running away from your life to start a new one
[editline]24th January 2014[/editline]
Some people actually have the balls to stand up and fight against oppressors, and I support them more than I support people with your mindset
It seems like if they don't do anything they will still get beaten/killed/kidnapped. Also, if the government decides to drop all pretense and crush them brutally anyways, I don't think anyone would blame the people for fighting back.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;43639858]And people ask me why I prepare for "The Happening". Not to try and make this some political gun debate, but this is exactly the reason why I believe in gun ownership.
The fact that the government is willing to solve it's political issues by using bullets and violence against dissenters disturbs me, and this just goes to show that the current government is absolutely terrible.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how guns are going to help against trees that make people kill themselves.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;43641672]If the protesters start using guns then the authority will have complete rights to scatter the revolution with [b]anything[/b] they want (tanks, BTRs, whatever you want).
No matter how many guns protesters might have: the police is always much better trained, much more numerous and better equipped.
The reason protesters never use guns is to maintain the situation where the goverment has no rights to kill them all. Right now they are "weak hungry people pissed with their goverment" and not armed criminals. This brings the support to their side.
If a shot is fired cops won't hesistate and the global society won't be able to protect the protesters, as destroying them will be a question of life and death for cops.
[editline]23rd January 2014[/editline]
I do believe that if protesters wanted they would bring a shitton of guns there. They are not stupid enough though.[/QUOTE]
Take into consideration the contrary: the modicum of peace is always there for a reason, sure - the powers that be have no grounds to open fire, and any violence fans the flames of resistance, further crumbling the foundation of the status quo.
However, according to your argument, whenever a protester is shot dead, brutally beat and/or arrested and jailed without trial, they can do absolutely nothing except maintain the peaceful resistance, while the government forces are waived several restrictions to the RoE as soon as an officer as much as stubs a toe, inflicting potentially fatal injuries to whatever they perceive as a threat in the ensuing anthem of weapons fire.
Does it not seem unjust that the protesters, who are actually risking injury, and in some cases, death, are not eligible to the same standard of self-defense?
I wouldn't incite a mob to open warfare with government forces for obvious reasons, but I'd like to hear your opinion on this nonetheless...
[QUOTE=>VLN<;43639749]I just can't imagine something like this ever happening in the USA.
I just can't see young American military soldiers basically kidnapping other Americans, especially considering they used to be an average citizen.[/QUOTE]
I thought their military said they weren't against the protesters though? Didn't a Ukrainian general get arrested for planning a coup also?
[QUOTE=Rastadogg;43639712]This is some grade-A missing the fucking point if I ever seen any.
Holy shit.[/QUOTE]
Hey, I'm not the one considering it "dumb" that some people would rather flee than be detained or be protesting on street and getting their head stoved in by riot police.
I don't disagree with what the protesters are doing, but I can understand why not everyone is going to want to do it.
[QUOTE=explodingape;43636203]I'd be more concerned with my life than with rights.[/QUOTE]
Congratulations, you're part of the problem
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