Injured Ukrainian activists disappearing from Kyiv Hospitals.
80 replies, posted
[QUOTE=TaniaTiger;43644652]Congratulations, you're part of the problem[/QUOTE]
It's probably pretty easy to say that when you're safe at home in a country that doesn't see anything as extreme as this domestically.
Right now, what the protesters need the most is a show of foreign support by other nations, it can prevent a lot of possible bloodshed, more then fighting can.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;43639201]Hrm, Let's say I was a Ukrainian.
After hearing about this my choices are.
A. Move out of the country to greener pastures and continue my life.
or
B. Fight against this, get hospitalized, and risk getting "ghosted" by some secret force.
Sorry I would say A. Honestly, more power to you for picking B. but I don't want to get vanished.[/QUOTE]
Nobody's obligated to stay and fight, even if it is the right thing to do. Who the fuck are you people to rate this post dumb and bash him for his opinion? You can say what is right and wrong and you can say what you would or would not do all you want, but none of that holds any weight whatsoever until you're actually in their shoes, and NONE of you are.
You people are acting like he's Hitler, Pvt. Martin actually has a good point. That is some scary shit to put up with, how can you blame anybody for trying to save themselves, and probably their families too, by fleeing? By no means are they cowards, if anything that's what the government is being, its ridiculous.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;43639262]Because moving out of the country and leaving everything behind is so easy to do.[/QUOTE]
It's certainly a lot easier than fighting a government.
Ukraine is weird
[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;43639800]Not really. What's right for someone might be getting their family out of there and letting the place crumble. No one has an intrinsic responsibility to fight for anything.[/QUOTE]
Are you fucking kidding me?
Do you have absolutely no attachment to your hometown, your home state, or even your own nation? Would you really be alright with your neighbors getting shot at, your home being burnt to the ground, and your politicians blatantly stealing and lying?
I'd be fighting right there with them. You don't take shit like this fighting down. You either strip the perpetrators of their power or put a bullet in their head. That's just how it works. That's how it's always worked, since Ancient Rome to Gaddafi.
[QUOTE=ewitwins;43651817]Are you fucking kidding me?
Do you have absolutely no attachment to your hometown, your home state, or even your own nation? Would you really be alright with your neighbors getting shot at, your home being burnt to the ground, and your politicians blatantly stealing and lying?
I'd be fighting right there with them. You don't take shit like this fighting down. You either strip the perpetrators of their power or put a bullet in their head. That's just how it works. That's how it's always worked, since Ancient Rome to Gaddafi.[/QUOTE]
Maybe some people would rather abandon their home rather than having their family tortured or killed?
[QUOTE=Sir_takeslot;43651825]Maybe some people would rather abandon their home rather than having their family tortured or killed?[/QUOTE]
You seem to be missing an option, there.
Fight, for Christ's sake. I worked for my home and for the good of the community, and I would fight to protect it. If you need to leave the country or send your family out then fine, but I don't understand the mentality of "just roll over and take it" and/or "why don't you just leave?".
[QUOTE=LVL FACTORY;43651607]Ukraine is weird[/QUOTE]
I like this guy
[QUOTE=ewitwins;43651832]You seem to be missing an option, there.
Fight, for Christ's sake. I worked for my home and for the good of the community, and I would fight to protect it. If you need to leave the country or send your family out then fine, but I don't understand the mentality of "just roll over and take it" and/or "why don't you just leave?".[/QUOTE]
Leaving is a perfectly valid option. You can send your family off sure. But perhaps some people need to provide for them?
It's perfectly reasonable for wanting to leave and not get involved in it. Sure, they should stand up and fight for their rights. But it's also understandable that some people don't want to risk their lives for it, they don't want to risk what they've done in their life to be killed. I understand most of the people here on facepunch are trying to be hardasses. But when you're actually faced with the choice. I can leave, or I can stay and possible be killed or taken away in the middle of the night, and possible be tortured."
Things change when death becomes a very big possibility. Protesters are already being killed, beaten, and kidnapped from hospitals.
[QUOTE=joost1120;43646758]It's certainly a lot easier than fighting a government.[/QUOTE]
Choosing the Right Thing to do is Hard.
[QUOTE=Kuro.;43641632]Guns are the equalizer in a citizens vs. the corrupt government situation like this apparently is. They allow the citizens a fighting chance against a force that is better armed and better trained. It also is supposed to act as a deterrent for this kind of behavior from the government because pissing off armed citizens is a bad idea unless you know for certain you can crush them easily. This is what the second amendment exists for, among other things.
Honestly, at this point, they should be getting their guns ready. There are already protestor casualties and kidnappings so the government is clearly willing to kill and vanish civilians in order to silence dissent and restore order. The time for peaceful resolution has unfortunately passed.[/QUOTE]No, I don't think the protestors brandishing firearms is the correct course of action. Yet. Things are still in the civil disobedience stage, if things escalate beyond that then yeah, it's time for a shooting war. While it's nice to have the option, whipping out the guns isn't a card anyone should play when there's other methods of action that haven't been exhausted. That's kinda why the Syrian civil war got so bad and there was military units deserting to join the rebel army, things got really violent really fast. Instead of protestors being left alone, the army rolled in and was ordered to put them down hard and it backfired horribly, it pissed off the people so hard it sparked a civil war.
I hope it doesn't come down to that, things could turn to shit really fast. I hope things stay in the sorta-riot place they're at, and there's some form of deescalation and some negotiation.
[QUOTE=tr00per7;43637035]I know, perish the thought someone would be more concerned with their safety than rights.
In fact, why don you fuck off to ukraine and start protesting if its so easy.
Its almost as if "not wanting to die" is a unnatural human instinct to you.[/QUOTE]
Neat, the first nomination for worst post 2014 outside of rust forums.
[QUOTE=>VLN<;43639749]I just can't imagine something like this ever happening in the USA.
I just can't see young American military soldiers basically kidnapping other Americans, especially considering they used to be an average citizen.[/QUOTE]
Let me try to explain it very briefly.
You are a member of the Ukrainian riot police, even if you agree with the protest, you are still ordered to go deal with it.
At first everyone is all friendly because no one wants to start shit, and then someone decides to take a molotov and chuck it at some riot police sitting nicely and not in any menacing form... Now you have a bunch of pissed off riot police who just witnessed their best friends getting firebombed.
After that, you have about forty percent of the riot police who are no longer there to simply "enforce the law" but rather there seeking retribution for their friends who were just attacked and harmed greatly.
Pearl Harbor Syndrome and all that.
[QUOTE=ewitwins;43651817]Are you fucking kidding me?
Do you have absolutely no attachment to your hometown, your home state, or even your own nation? Would you really be alright with your neighbors getting shot at, your home being burnt to the ground, and your politicians blatantly stealing and lying?
I'd be fighting right there with them. You don't take shit like this fighting down. You either strip the perpetrators of their power or put a bullet in their head. That's just how it works. That's how it's always worked, since Ancient Rome to Gaddafi.[/QUOTE]
Hahahaha you are so out of touch with the state of things in Ukraine or any country that is in a similar situation or close to it. Let me explain the mindset of a person that moves out of a country that is going to shit, as I have both the pleasure of living in a country with its own issues and living with a person (and up until a while ago her daughter) that moved out of Ukraine a couple of years before the protests started:
[I]-Why[/I] would anyone be attatched to their hometown when it went to shit long ago and left its people picking up the pieces or fighting for scraps? (this is rather hyperbolic, I'm talking about unemployment and crime, really)
[I]-Why [/I]would you care for your "home state" (or rather country we don't have states here) when it has been fucking you in the ass for almost your entire life? (this is not hyperbolic)
-And [I]why[/I] would you care about an apathetic nation that gave in to it all?
The only reason people have stayed now, is because they still love their nation despite its faults and because they want to survive and are pissed at the very ground that was supposed to care for them, but didn't. A lot of people who wanted to leave Ukraine already have, what's left is the people who probably don't have a choice in the matter to begin with and those few who really want to save it (who are probably leading and organizing the protests).
When your country fucks [B]you[/B] it doesn't seem so bad because it's either in the name of freedom or because it [I]appears[/I] to be recent and people can oppose most of it without a problem .When my country fucks [B]me[/B], it feels like shit because they just outright deny it happened at all and it has been happening for my entire life, over and over again - and in Ukraine it is much worse.
I don't think you realize what it is like to really hate your own government and be dissapointed to hell in your countrymen, even though you love your nation. It either takes a lot out of you to really put aside your responsibility to your family and protest, or you don't have a choice anyway. There are no "cowards who want to run" and "heroes who don't", just people who can't and people who wont, and both are scared and angry. So please shut up about ~attatchment~, you don't have a clue about how complex this situation really is.
[sp]saying all of that though, I would stay, but don't ever give shit to someone who wouldn't
and I'm not trying to give shit to Americans, I'm just saying the situation is different[/sp]
[editline]24th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;43643075]Take into consideration the contrary: the modicum of peace is always there for a reason, sure - the powers that be have no grounds to open fire, and any violence fans the flames of resistance, further crumbling the foundation of the status quo.
However, according to your argument, whenever a protester is shot dead, brutally beat and/or arrested and jailed without trial, they can do absolutely nothing except maintain the peaceful resistance, while the government forces are waived several restrictions to the RoE as soon as an officer as much as stubs a toe, inflicting potentially fatal injuries to whatever they perceive as a threat in the ensuing anthem of weapons fire.
Does it not seem unjust that the protesters, who are actually risking injury, and in some cases, death, are not eligible to the same standard of self-defense?
I wouldn't incite a mob to open warfare with government forces for obvious reasons, but I'd like to hear your opinion on this nonetheless...[/QUOTE]
A protesters greatest weapon is the sympathy of others for their cause. Fighting back with guns risks removing that, and then they're on their own.
I'd rather have the support of the world than the support of a rifle.
[QUOTE=explodingape;43636203]I'd be more concerned with my life than with rights. A work permit in a foreign country is easier to achieve than reincarnation.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure that 90% of the ones who dumbed this post would make a run for it were they in such a situation.
[QUOTE=>VLN<;43639749]I just can't imagine something like this ever happening in the USA.
I just can't see young American military soldiers basically kidnapping other Americans, especially considering they used to be an average citizen.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but my impression of the avarage young American soldier, if brainwashed, is that they would be willing to follow their officers' orders through hell and back and even wipe their ass for them.
It's disgusting that the Berkut officers who [I]do[/I] want to join the protestors risk the chance of getting shot by snipers. It's a disgusting situation for everyone involved.
I don't think you can count on the international community helping.
At least not with Russia's abusive veto power.
[QUOTE=ewitwins;43651817]Are you fucking kidding me?
Do you have absolutely no attachment to your hometown, your home state, or even your own nation?[/QUOTE]
I don't really see why anybody should be obliged to have loyalty or attachment to their hometown or nations or w/e. They were more or less born there as a result of circumstance.
Lot of Americans in this thread saying they'd leave the country and not fight for their rights.
Not big fans of the American Revolutionary War then I guess....
As military, it's gonna sound really weird for me to say this but I'm not particularly attached to my country. All I care about are the people that live in it. I can understand the want to escape, instead of fight for 'your country.'
If I were in their situation and I could convince my family to leave there with me, I'd rather leave than fight.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43690612]I don't really see why anybody should be obliged to have loyalty or attachment to their hometown or nations or w/e. They were more or less born there as a result of circumstance.[/QUOTE]
The country educated you, gave you the chances to develop your life etc.
You might as well could've been born in Africa and then you would've been fucked.
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