Black Lives Matter organiser is white yet took a scholarship only for Black Students - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Flameon;48504338] At the end of the day it starts to sound less like, "We should care about all poor people" and more like, "We should care about poor white people." [/QUOTE] What? No Seriously, what the fuck? We should care about poor people, that's it. No race, no gender, only human There's no need to make sure of anything, as long as poor people get what they need

[QUOTE=_Axel;48504320]And what exactly hinders black students more when it comes to going to a university that additional money can counter? Yeah and that need is money. Don't act like race factors in this, it doesn't. What? I can't even grasp the logic of your argument. It's like you've got a very specific idea in your mind but can't formulate it the way you want to. "There are mode whites than blacks in the US so if we handed scholarships to the poors we don't know if it will affect black people." Uh actually we do know it will affect black people who need financial help to attend school, that's all that matters. What exactly is the problem here?[/QUOTE] Axel, the history of programs to help the poor have historically targeted only white folks. For example, the social security act excluded agricultural workers. FHA loans until 1968 were given out 98% to whites. These acts didn't specifcy, 'whites only', but the way these policies were enacted were whites only. Biases in teaching (who gets attention) as well as deciding who gets to attend a university (what names I prefer) mean that being black does carry with it stigma. I get your arguement that the scholarship doesn't necessarily resolve this stigma, but it doesn't have to resolve *all* of it. At a micro level, the point of the .25% of scholarships that are earmarked exclusively for blacks is to counteract the other 99.75% of scholarships that 'say' they are for everyone, but as a result of racial biases will prefer white students over blacks.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48504222]You are not in the same position as minorities because you dont experience systemic racism.[/QUOTE] This tired argument makes as little sense as saying psychologists can't diagnose and treat people with depression if they aren't depressive themselves.

[QUOTE=_Axel;48504355]What the fuck? We're defending giving equal treatment to all races and you act like we want to only help out poor white people? You're fucking out of your mind. Scholarships have fuck all to do with whether people are likely to hire you, I don't see why you want to push compensations for systemic racism and reparations for goddamn slavery (which doesn't even affect anybody anymore) everywhere you can and especially in places where it is irrelevant such as the education system.[/QUOTE] I totally get that you want to give out equal treatment to everyone, but the history of how these 'equal programs' have been enacted and continue to be enacted look a lot like anything but. We should strive for equal treatment, but also be mindful that in the process of carrying out those programs many minorities will fall to the wayside b/c of biases in how the programs are enacted. [editline]20th August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=_Axel;48504393]This tired argument makes as little sense as saying psychologists can't diagnose and treat people with depression if they aren't depressive themselves.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying you can't comprehend the position of minorities, I'm saying you aren't experiencing their position. It'd be more like saying just because you are sad a few times you don't know what it feels like to have depression.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48504222]You are not in the same position as minorities because you dont experience systemic racism.[/QUOTE] Let me just say this I am part of an ethnic (not quite racial, but still valid in this context) minority within Estonia, namely Russian So I guess I do experience that. What now?

[QUOTE=NotMeh;48504405]Let me just say this I am part of an ethnic (not quite racial, but still valid in this context) minority within Estonia, namely Russian So I guess I do experience that. What now?[/QUOTE] You aren't in the United States which is what we are talking about :\ If russians experence systemic racism in Estonia, there should probably be policies in place to counteract that.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48504390]Axel, the history of programs to help the poor have historically targeted only white folks. For example, the social security act excluded agricultural workers. FHA loans until 1968 were given out 98% to whites. These acts didn't specifcy, 'whites only', but the way these policies were enacted were whites only. Biases in teaching (who gets attention) as well as deciding who gets to attend a university (what names I prefer) mean that being black does carry with it stigma. I get your arguement that the scholarship doesn't necessarily resolve this stigma, but it doesn't have to resolve *all* of it. At a micro level, the point of the .25% of scholarships that are earmarked exclusively for blacks is to counteract the other 99.75% of scholarships that 'say' they are for everyone, but as a result of racial biases will prefer white students over blacks.[/QUOTE] If you hand out your scholarships based on nothing but income it will be fair to people of all races, that simply can't be construed as being unfair to black people, everybody in need of a scholarship would receive it by design. Your dumb ass black-only scholarships, though, discriminate against non-blacks by design. The stigma you're referring to is also not changed a bit by the acquisition of scholarships. Black students who are being discriminated against don't need money, they need to be treated fairly and additional money won't change that.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48504409]You aren't in the United States which is what we are talking about :\[/QUOTE] oh yeah right I guess systematic discrimination is exclusive to USA :\ sorry

[QUOTE=_Axel;48504419]If you hand out your scholarships based on nothing but income it will be fair to people of all races, that simply can't be construed as being unfair to black people, everybody in need of a scholarship would receive it by design. Your dumb ass black-only scholarships, though, discriminate against non-blacks by design.[/QUOTE] Federal Housing Loans were designed to be given to anyone deserving of them - i.e: poor. 98% of them went to white folks. Also not all scholarships are based on income, but even if they were you have no guarantee that in the process of handing out the scholarships it would fairly target black students. What evidence would you need to see to convince you that while the scholarship, in theory was for everyone, primarily targeted white students? [editline]20th August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=NotMeh;48504426]oh yeah right I guess systematic discrimination is exclusive to USA :\ sorry[/QUOTE] It isnt but we are talking about the USA right now, as I said you experience systemic racism where you live (I know nothing about Estonia's history or continued treatment of Russians) then there should be policies designed to combat that.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48504436]Federal Housing Loans were designed to be given to anyone deserving of them - i.e: poor. 98% of them went to white folks.[/QUOTE] Then either the policy in question wasn't applied correctly or 98% of the people who needed those loans were white. [Quote]Also not all scholarships are based on income, but even if they were you have no guarantee that in the process of handing out the scholarships it would fairly target black students. What evidence would you need to see to convince you that while the scholarship, in theory was for everyone, primarily targeted white students?[/QUOTE] If the policies in question are not applied correctly, that's another problem entirely. That's not a fault of the policy itself. If the people who deserve it don't get aid it means the people in charge of distributing it aren't doing their job properly and you need to address that. Not make some bullshit counter policy which won't be applied correctly either since the issue lies with the people who apply those policies.

The point of these private institutions making these scholarships is precisely to combat that intransigence of institutions beyond their control.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48504474]The point of these private institutions making these scholarships is precisely to combat that intransigence of institutions beyond their control.[/QUOTE] And how do you know that those scholarships are distributed correctly if the reason you make them in the first place is that you don't trust those who distribute them? There are other ways to solve this problem than some dubious zero-sum attempt. You can set up individual controls, find out those who do their job incorrectly and fire them. What are they on a payroll for? If your solution to any administrative problem is to add some more layers instead of fixing the problem, you're going to end up with a redundant and unstable pile of crap.

Generally the people making scholarships only earmarked to black folks create checks to ensure they go to who is supposed to get them (they are targeted after all) One way to ensure administrative oversight is to put in quotas to make sure black folks benefit from the scholarship, but you are already opposed to that. The problem is that it is next to impossible to prove intent to discriminate, which is why the legal standard disparate impact exists. The idea being that if we see repeated results of what would have occurred either through random chance or targeted discrimination we should assume the latter [editline]20th August 2015[/editline] I would love the resolution of these biases and equal treatment in the administration of aid. But I also know that pragmatically, it's worthwhile to have these scholarships now.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48504436] It isnt but we are talking about the USA right now, as I said you experience systemic racism where you live (I know nothing about Estonia's history or continued treatment of Russians) [B]then there should be policies designed to combat that[/B].[/QUOTE] I really don't know what you're trying to say I think the way to ending discrimination of any kind in Estonia should be an effort to make the two ethnic groups grow closer together, understand each other's differences and needs, and compromise In any case, Russian-only scholarships are not needed and completely ridiculous

Uh it's pretty easy actually. If distribution of scholarships rely on objective administrative criteria such as income you can easily see if someone was deliberately left out. If they meet the criteria and were not given the scholarship it means they were deliberately overlooked and the instance responsible for the distribution has to be punished for it. I really don't see what here warrants the use of quotas or other fancy racial restrictions.

Often, more people apply for scholarships than there is money to go out. Additionally it's not like these private institutions publish who they did or didn't give the money to. Who would punish them and what law would they be violating? I'm with you, but in the meantime why not keep these programs to be the thorn in our side to motivate us to seek policy answers to those dilemmas and questions.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48504672]Often, more people apply for scholarships than there is money to go out. [/QUOTE] Saying "this poor person deserves X more because of their race" is racist.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48504672]Often, more people apply for scholarships than there is money to go out.[/QUOTE] Then prioritize those with the lowest income. [Quote]Additionally it's not like these private institutions publish who they did or didn't give the money to. Who would punish them and what law would they be violating? [/quote] Then have the government require that they publish them, or set up batches of fake applications of similar profiles which only vary by race, if you notice a tendency that all other things otherwise equal, white people are prioritized over blacks they should be able to punish them for discriminatory practices. You do have laws against racial discrimination in the US, right? [Quote]I'm with you, but in the meantime why not keep these programs to be the thorn in our side to motivate us to seek policy answers to those dilemmas and questions.[/QUOTE] Because they are racist? I don't know why you keep using that argument. If a policy is bad you don't use it, I don't see how that's hard to understand.

in the world of facepunch, racism in the united states no longer exists and everything is now fixed with everyone being equal

[QUOTE=Flameon;48503343]If you could press a button and redo your life being black would you? I can't even comprehend a situation outside of the fringest of cases [meeting a serial killer who only wants to kill white people] where my life hasn't been improved because I am white.[/QUOTE] Your life hasn't been improved by being white in pretty much any way. You'll likely find that, in so far as life goes, you've actually lived a life pretty similar to most others at the same income level. Also if I could do it over again, I'd choose to be a cisgirl. Not something I really can achieve however.

Zedacon, look at any data you think is a barometer of quality of life, control for wealth and you'd still see notable benefits in being white. Axel, I keep bringing it up because I feel like the benefits of the policy outweigh the harm you keep bringing up. Namely lives of populations are notably improved who have been ignored for like 300 yrs and probably will continue to be unless we focus on them. I agree they should be punished for discriminatory practices, and that data should be public knowledge. But we are speaking about two different actors. One is a private foundation whose contribution to fighting the systemic racism on the part of others is creating targeted scholarships, the other are legal authorities with the power to prosecute. Until the latter acts I'm fine with the former.

All you're saying though is "If you try and make the system equal it only helps whites, so you need to make it black only and then you can deal with the next nebulous step" It's not logical IMO.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48504927]Zedacon, look at any data you think is a barometer of quality of life, control for wealth and you'd still see notable benefits in being white. Axel, I keep bringing it up because I feel like the benefits of the policy outweigh the harm you keep bringing up. Namely lives of populations are notably improved who have been ignored for like 300 yrs and probably will continue to be unless we focus on them. I agree they should be punished for discriminatory practices, and that data should be public knowledge. But we are speaking about two different actors. One is a private foundation whose contribution to fighting the systemic racism on the part of others is creating targeted scholarships, the other are legal authorities with the power to prosecute. Until the latter acts I'm fine with the former.[/QUOTE]Unequal distributions of wealth does not mean one has an advantage simply for being white. Its stupid and baseless. Its drawing false conclusions from data that literally doesn't provide even a little indication of the claim being made.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48505768]All you're saying though is "If you try and make the system equal it only helps whites, so you need to make it black only and then you can deal with the next nebulous step" It's not logical IMO.[/QUOTE] I'm more saying if you lift all boats, some boats will continue to be lifted higher relative to others (since they were higher to begin with). We should try to make the system equal of course, but also be aware that the effects of our policies aren't as intuitive as we might want them to be.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48505768]All you're saying though is "If you try and make the system equal it only helps whites, so you need to make it black only and then you can deal with the next nebulous step" It's not logical IMO.[/QUOTE] except it's not black only, there's plenty of scholarships that non-blacks can get for a variety of reasons. [editline]20th August 2015[/editline] Also it's ridiculous that people assume that someone "gets a free ride through college therefore the degree means less" from getting a scholarship, it's money not an extra point on your GPA.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;48505768]All you're saying though is "If you try and make the system equal it only helps whites, so you need to make it black only and then you can deal with the next nebulous step" It's not logical IMO.[/QUOTE] i think i know how to persuade you on this fucking black people only fucking has fucking 1 cigarette fucking shit fucking white pople fucking has about fucking 5 cigarettes fucking shit fucking black people has been fucking dis-fucking-advantaged fuckity fuck fuck due to the past fucking cannot fucking treat them fucking as on equal fucking grounds, so lets fucking give blacks more fucking cigarettes smoking is fucking good for us [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]

Correlation != Causation Flameon. Learn statistics!

People have done statistical work to show high levels of p-value correlation for exactly what I'm talkin' about. Check the stats dude :\

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;48504789]in the world of facepunch, racism in the united states no longer exists and everything is now fixed with everyone being equal[/QUOTE] That's not what were saying. Where just saying that the US isn't a white supremacist society.

Maybe the word is a little power-tagged for you, but I use it to refer to the fact that whites ruling political institutions/being the ones that are wealthy/there being a cultural norm which prioritizes white people is a pervasive feature of U.S. society.