Black Lives Matter organiser is white yet took a scholarship only for Black Students - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;48506247]Unequal distributions of wealth does not mean one has an advantage simply for being white. Its stupid and baseless. Its drawing false conclusions from data that literally doesn't provide even a little indication of the claim being made.[/QUOTE] 'privilege' is best understood through the purview of being spared injustice. the benefits are relative, rather than absolute. i don't like the term, but unfortunate it's the one that's been co-opted. one interesting and illuminating aspect that i think is worth mentioning is how issues of race interplay with human psychology. for example, in a society that is demographically and administratively dominated by, say, blue people, other blues have the benefit of being judged purely as individuals. when looking at another person of one's own race, regardless of what race they are, they don't draw group associations, because in their eyes, there is no group. blue people, in the eyes of other blue people, do not exist as a monolith. when a blue person or a group of blue people does something, it is not judged as representative of the entire blue population. nobody calls upon the blue community to stand up and disavow them. no blue person has to deliberately subdue their behaviors and alter their appearance in order to convince people of other groups that they are "one of the good ones". black people, by comparison, are judged as a group, as a monolith. in reality, across all ethnic and racial divides, there is more individual variation in a single group than there is variations between groups. the problem, however, is twofold, and it has to do with psychology: 1.) we allow stereotypes and generalizations to color our understanding of the world, largely through the use of heuristics, mental rules of thumb that allow for quick snap-judgments that were useful to us when we were fighting for survival. 2.) we don't recognize the individual differences of other groups in the same way that we do for our own, due to in-group and out-group biases. both of these are also influenced by social factors: stereotypes arise from society, just the same as the cultural, social, economic, and geographic differences that separate the races. in other words, both blacks and whites have the psychological infrastructure for racism, and indeed there are examples of both carrying out racism and prejudice. the issue of these sorts of things is just as much cognitive as it is social, and it requires treatment from all angles over time. but the impact of racism against blacks, the tangible and intangible barriers that they face, are much, much larger, because they have relatively smaller numbers, relatively less political efficacy, and relatively fewer opportunities.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48506560]I'm more saying if you lift all boats, some boats will continue to be lifted higher relative to others (since they were higher to begin with). We should try to make the system equal of course, but also be aware that the effects of our policies aren't as intuitive as we might want them to be.[/QUOTE] You still fail to see the enormous flaw on your logic. Let's just review the facts. 1)There are poor white. 2)Being white doesn't offset being poor. 3)Poor people doesn't go to college unless they have a scholarship. You basically create a situation where two people, a black and a white person are having differencial treatment based on their race. And you think it's ok for the poor white person to not have access to scholarship simply because there are other white people on college.

1.) yeah, and we should design policies to help the 'poor' aspect of that. since they are white they don't need policies to help the systemic racism they face. poor black folks need both. 2.) Being white carries benefits besides being rich. 3.) Financial Aid =/= All Scholarships I'm not saying poor whites SHOULDN'T get help, im saying black people specificly need a program designed to help them - because in addition to being poor they face systemic racism.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48507498]1.) yeah, and we should design policies to help the 'poor' aspect of that. since they are white they don't need policies to help the systemic racism they face. poor black folks need both.[/QUOTE] Financial Aid isn't a solution for "systemic racism". It's just a blanket to cover the problem. [QUOTE=Flameon;48507498] 2.) Being white carries benefits besides being rich. [/QUOTE] Maybe. But we're talking about scholarships. You think it's ok to deny access to education to someone because he's not going to be racially profiled by the cops? [QUOTE=Flameon;48507498] I'm not saying poor whites SHOULDN'T get help, im saying black people specificly need a program designed to help them - because in addition to being poor they face systemic racism.[/QUOTE] Like I said, Financial Aid isn't a solution for "systemic racism", it's a solution for poor.

Im not denying jack shit dude, these are PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS that are deciding they want to donate their money toward helping a very specific set of underprivileged people. And by the way, yes, they fight a form of systemic racism (the likelyhood for the other 99.75% of scholarships to be tilted toward white folks) this 'it doesn't solve the whole thing' is a pretty disengenuous arguement because you are gonna be hard pressed finding a silver bullet to resolve it, so everything is gonna be a mask or a blanket or whatever other allegory you wanna use.

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[QUOTE=Flameon;48507592]Im not denying jack shit dude, these are PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS that are deciding they want to donate their money toward helping a very specific set of underprivileged people. And by the way, yes, they fight a form of systemic racism (the likelyhood for the other 99.75% of scholarships to be tilted toward white folks) this 'it doesn't solve the whole thing' is a pretty disengenuous arguement because you are gonna be hard pressed finding a silver bullet to resolve it, so everything is gonna be a mask or a blanket or whatever other allegory you wanna use.[/QUOTE] So a PRIVATE INSTITUTION setting up a scholarship for poor white kids would NOT be racist to you, correct? I mean they are "donating their money to help a very specific set of underprivileged people", right?

I think setting up the scholarship for specifically "white" in that part of the equation is problematic given everything I've been saying about systemic racism, but in all honesty it would probably be outweighed by helping the "poor" part. So yes, it would be racist (and I'm using that here to refer to systemicly racist) [editline]21st August 2015[/editline] For example, if someone found the cure to aids and dedicated their life to distributing the cure that'd be awesome, but if they made their mission to only give the medicine to white people with aids I think that would be incredibly problematic, but obviously I'd be glad anyone with aids were getting the cure.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48508727]I think setting up the scholarship for specifically "white" in that part of the equation is problematic given everything I've been saying about systemic racism, but in all honesty it would probably be outweighed by helping the "poor" part. So yes, it would be racist (and I'm using that here to refer to systemicly racist) [editline]21st August 2015[/editline] For example, if someone found the cure to aids and dedicated their life to distributing the cure that'd be awesome, but if they made their mission to only give the medicine to white people with aids I think that would be incredibly problematic, but obviously I'd be glad anyone with aids were getting the cure.[/QUOTE] Prime example of racist logic. "It's problematic when one race is favored, but not problematic when another is."

Well to put it in perspective SilenceIKillYou, using my AIDs example: imagine if there were a host of distribution outlets dedicated to getting the cure to AIDs out to people that need it, and while they say the medicine is for everyone, in practice there is a noteable slant in who gets the medicine (namely, its white people getting it). And this slant has been happening for quite a long time without very much interruption. So, another foundation notices that black people are underserved and dedicates their program to counter-acting this white bias in the distribution of medicine by targeting only black populations. I guess I can understand why you'd say thats racist, but only if you get rid of the larger context which renders those populations underserved in the first place. This is why I keep talking about systemic racism which needs to be kept in focus when you decide if these scholarships are valueable or not.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;48508705]So a PRIVATE INSTITUTION setting up a scholarship for poor white kids would NOT be racist to you, correct? I mean they are "donating their money to help a very specific set of underprivileged people", right?[/QUOTE] Setting up a scholarship for poor people is a great idea. That's donating money to help a specific set of underprivileged people. But specifying that you're only going to help the white people of that underprivileged class, though, would be systemically racist, because now you're making a racial distinction where you're only going to help the more privileged of these two subsets. Race and class are two separate factors. A person can have privilege due to their race or sex while being unprivileged due to their class. Consider each one in isolation. [QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;48508843]Prime example of racist logic. "It's problematic when one race is favored, but not problematic when another is."[/QUOTE] I may not agree with everything Flameon says but I don't find it difficult to understand that specifically favoring the group that's been historically disadvantaged is not at all the same as favoring the group that's been historically advantaged. I'd call it 'problematic', if you want to use that word, if an Ivy League school gave free rides to students of wealthy families, because I'd see that as encouraging a culture of favoring the wealthy. I wouldn't call it 'problematic' if an Ivy League school gave free rides to capable but poor students. To call it discriminatory because scholarships are being given to a disadvantaged group rather than to everyone equally would seem a little simplistic, no?

[QUOTE=catbarf;48508901]Setting up a scholarship for poor people is a great idea. That's donating money to help a specific set of underprivileged people. But specifying that you're only going to help the white people of that underprivileged class, though, would be systemically racist, because now you're making a racial distinction where you're only going to help the more privileged of these two subsets.[/QUOTE] That's the point he's trying to make. Specifying that you're only going to help the black people of that underprivileged class is also racist. [QUOTE=catbarf;48508901] I may not agree with everything Flameon says but I don't find it difficult to understand that specifically favoring the group that's been historically disadvantaged is not at all the same as favoring the group that's been historically advantaged. [/QUOTE] "On average", "historically". Not seeing people as individuals, you fail to recognize that someone might need aid despite historical and average facts.

[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;48496216]Could you imagine a world where we didn't care about peoples skin pigmentation and instead focused on what they have to offer as human beings?[/QUOTE] There are far too many uneducated people for that

White people don't need aid for being white, they might need aid for being poor. I don't know why you keep raising this charge about not looking at people as individuals - like, I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. Every aid program tries to target a group of people whose individual circumstance means they require a specific type of assistance.

Yes but flameon, I'm a white middle class guy, but I fall into a tax bracket that gets no help from the government and my parents cant pay either. What do you propose I do for scholarships when I cant find any I qualify for on my school's website because I'm white and a guy and don't study nursing?

99.75% of all scholarships are not earmarked for black people. I dunno what to tell you, maybe ask your advisor about where you can find scholarships? What field are you in? Are there other private institutions that might give you a scholarship if you write an essay or do some community service? Whatever scholarship you apply to, you should feel relatively confident that the fact that you are white will not hinder you getting a scholarship - in fact, because of unconcious biases you will probably be prioritized over minorities applying for the same thing.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48509012]White people don't need aid for being white, they might need aid for being poor.[/QUOTE] If black people need help for being black someone better start sending Will Smith money.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48509012]White people don't need aid for being white, they might need aid for being poor.[/QUOTE]Is that any different from other races? Do they somehow need a scholarship because they're black? How come poor white person is ignored while poor black person gets a scholarship? To improve the stats? This isn't equality or justice. If they're poor they should both have an equal chance of receiving a scholarship, no matter their race or gender. Equality through discrimination will never work.

If you make a policy to just blanketly help the poor, you will probably find that the impact of the policy may miss the mark quite a bit when it comes to black America. I am with you in the end game, but in the meantime these scholarships are addressing a specific population that isn't being served by scholarships that might claim to serve them.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48509183]If you make a policy to just blanketly help the poor, you will probably find that the impact of the policy may miss the mark quite a bit when it comes to black America.[/QUOTE] Explain?

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;48509190]Explain?[/QUOTE] FHA loans. The GI Bill. The Social Security Act. Most scholarships disproportionately go to caucasians.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48509229]FHA loans. The GI Bill. The Social Security Act. Most scholarships disproportionately go to caucasians.[/QUOTE] You know there's more white people than black people in america don't you? You're also aware that there's more poor white people than poor black people, right?

When I say disproportionately I am saying that totally aware of the population differences. Just as even though there are more white people in America and more white people in poverty in terms of raw numbers, blacks are disproportionately more likely to be in poverty. [editline]21st August 2015[/editline] Math in case you don't get it. If there are 1,000 white people and 200 are in poverty vs 300 black people and 100 are in poverty, blacks are disproportionately more lkely to be in poverty because 1/3 > 1/5.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48509270]When I say disproportionately I am saying that totally aware of the population differences. Just as even though there are more white people in America and more white people in poverty in terms of raw numbers, blacks are disproportionately more likely to be in poverty. [editline]21st August 2015[/editline] Math in case you don't get it. If there are 1,000 white people and 200 are in poverty vs 300 black people and 100 are in poverty, blacks are disproportionately more lkely to be in poverty because 1/3 > 1/5.[/QUOTE] So it's ok to stablish a quota to help a minority of people and let the majority of poor people without help because the group they belong to, on average, has it better?

When have I ever said we shouldn't have scholarships for poor people of all races?

[QUOTE=Flameon;48509352]When have I ever said we shouldn't have scholarships for poor people of all races?[/QUOTE] You said making a poor scholarship would miss the mark regarding black america. If most black people are poor and you make scholarships for poor people why do you need a black only scholarship?

Because of racial biases it will likely disproportionately go to white people. the black only scholarships are there to resolve that racial bias by making its effect negligible. [editline]21st August 2015[/editline] We all want poor people regardless of their creed or color to have scholarship money. The question is how do we pragmatically get there.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48509270]When I say disproportionately I am saying that totally aware of the population differences. Just as even though there are more white people in America and more white people in poverty in terms of raw numbers, blacks are disproportionately more likely to be in poverty. [editline]21st August 2015[/editline] Math in case you don't get it. If there are 1,000 white people and 200 are in poverty vs 300 black people and 100 are in poverty, blacks are disproportionately more lkely to be in poverty because 1/3 > 1/5.[/QUOTE] And by helping all poor, you are disproportionately helping those black people in poverty. See, your solution focuses on getting the numbers to work out, but the result would just mean that the conditions of those who don't get chosen would remain the same. Blacks who don't receive a good enough education to get into college in the first place are not any better off because a kid a couple of towns away got a scholarship. You're trying to solve an economic and educational problem by focusing on race. Bigotry doesn't solve race issues, and it doesn't solve economic issues. It just makes the numbers look pretty while people are still stuck in the same situation.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48509229]FHA loans. The GI Bill. The Social Security Act. Most scholarships disproportionately go to caucasians.[/QUOTE] How many black Americans apply for these scholarships or even universities though? White people make up the bulk of the population of the US, so wouldn't it make sense that if everyone were applying the bulk of the grants would go to the largest representative group by chance? Finding the enrollment rates is pretty easy, but applications are less so. In fact, when you look at the rate of enrollment here in the states, [URL="http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/race-gap-narrows-in-college-enrollment-but-not-in-graduation/"]black and white Americans have essentially reached parity when it comes to enrollment.[/URL] Interestingly enough however, black Americans have a lower graduation rate while having a higher enrollment rate in remedial courses and community colleges. It has been speculated that many of these drop outs simply were not prepared for college work which seems likely to me given that public education is failing in many urban poor centers. [URL="http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_302.60.asp"]Knowing that minority populations are often over represented at universities[/URL], and after admitting inconsistencies with race-specific funding for education, do you honestly think this is the solution to solving the disparities in education between racial groups? Why set up a system that's going to cause other problems (legal quandaries, social unrest, devaluation of higher education) as a temporary patch instead of you know, actually addressing the issue at hand?

Yes, if we did have a platform to actually resolve poverty in the United States black people *would* disproportionately benefit. You are right on the money. This line, "Blacks who don't receive a good enough education to get into college in the first place are not any better off because a kid a couple of towns away got a scholarship" doens't make sense 1.) Do you have any evidence these black only scholarships privilege rich blacks? 2.) If your point s that they have a shitty education, then are you saying we shouldn't even have scholarships at all? Better to improve poor schools right? These aren't mutually exclusive thngs... we can do both... especially since we are talking about DIFFERENT ACTORS. A private institution can't do school reform, but they can give scholarships to kids to reward their efforts. This includes giving money to kids who can't afford school (financial aid), and also to kids who do well (merit based). As well as giving money to blacks to fight back against racial biases in the other two categories. The problem is economic, educational... and guess what else? Racial. [editline]21st August 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=1legmidget;48509442]How many black Americans apply for these scholarships or even universities though? White people make up the bulk of the population of the US, so wouldn't it make sense that if everyone were applying the bulk of the grants would go to the largest representative group by chance? Finding the enrollment rates is pretty easy, but applications are less so. In fact, when you look at the rate of enrollment here in the states, [URL="http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/race-gap-narrows-in-college-enrollment-but-not-in-graduation/"]black and white Americans have essentially reached parity when it comes to enrollment.[/URL] Interestingly enough however, black Americans have a lower graduation rate while having a higher enrollment rate in remedial courses and community colleges. It has been speculated that many of these drop outs simply were not prepared for college work which seems likely to me given that public education is failing in many urban poor centers. [URL="http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_302.60.asp"]Knowing that minority populations are often over represented at universities[/URL], and after admitting inconsistencies with race-specific funding for education, do you honestly think this is the solution to solving the disparities in education between racial groups? Why set up a system that's going to cause other problems (legal quandaries, social unrest, devaluation of higher education) as a temporary patch instead of you know, actually addressing the issue at hand?[/QUOTE] Couple of thngs 1.) You should re-read the five thirty eight article you linked or connect the dots. Higher enrollment at community colleges, lower graduation rate, less likely to graduate in 6 years. Put 2 and 2 together. 2.) Your second link doesn't say minorities are over-represented at universities. In fact that graph litterally says that lower percentages of blacks (6%) are in school than their white counterparts. 3.) The graphs have already been linked, but whites dispraportionately get scholarship money. [url]http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/20110902racescholarships.pdf[/url]