Black Lives Matter organiser is white yet took a scholarship only for Black Students

[Silence]

[QUOTE=Flameon;48509445]Yes, if we did have a platform to actually resolve poverty in the United States black people *would* disproportionately benefit. You are right on the money.

This line, "Blacks who don't receive a good enough education to get into college in the first place are not any better off because a kid a couple of towns away got a scholarship" doens't make sense
1.) Do you have any evidence these black only scholarships privilege rich blacks?
2.) If your point s that they have a shitty education, then are you saying we shouldn't even have scholarships at all? Better to improve poor schools right? These aren't mutually exclusive thngs... we can do both...

especially since we are talking about DIFFERENT ACTORS. A private institution can't do school reform, but they can give scholarships to kids to reward their efforts. This includes giving money to kids who can't afford school (financial aid), and also to kids who do well (merit based). As well as giving money to blacks to fight back against racial biases in the other two categories.

The problem is economic, educational... and guess what else? Racial.[/QUOTE]

1) You are literally asking me to provide proof that students in poor schools won't be able to use scholarships to college. It's pretty logical to say that if a school system isn't preparing it's students for college, they have no use for a scholarship to college. I also never said that they only privilege "rich blacks", but they don't help the bottom as much as you like to assume. Incentives on the individual level won't help the "on average" you keep using to justify them.

2) I'm saying we shouldn't have scholarships based on factors such as race, because they don't do anything for the race as a whole. They just promote the appearance of a solution, when in reality, it doesn't truly help the underlying problem.

[Flameon]

Do you think the ability for blacks generally to apply for scholarships helps the race as a whole? What I mean is if all the scholarships currently in existence were actually 'whites only', would you think that would hurt"the [black] race as a whole"?

If your answer is yes, then consider the racial bias in the process of dolling out scholarships (i.e: prioritizing whites over blacks) to mean that the presence of blacks only scholarships is valueable to combat that bias.

[Silence]

[QUOTE=Flameon;48509912]Do you think the ability for blacks generally to apply for scholarships helps the race as a whole? What I mean is if all the scholarships currently in existence were actually 'whites only', would you think that would hurt"the [black] race as a whole"?

If your answer is yes, then consider the racial bias in the process of dolling out scholarships (i.e: prioritizing whites over blacks) to mean that the presence of blacks only scholarships is valueable to combat that bias.[/QUOTE]

So you're saying that we should create white only scholarships to help the white race as a whole as well, and to combat the racial bias created by blacks only scholarships?

[Flameon]

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;48510059]So you're saying that we should create white only scholarships to help the white race as a whole as well, and to combat the racial bias created by blacks only scholarships?[/QUOTE]
The white race doesn't need help getting scholarships, thats the entire reason there are black only scholarships - to offset the existing benefit/bias.

Do you think black people currently get a disproportionate share of the scholarships? If yes, then yeah I guess we should do white only scholarships [or we could end some black only scholarships to re-balance], but pretty sure that isn't the case.

[ni🅱️🅱️a]

Can someone give a stat with evidence on the actual proportion of black scholarships to white scholarships with regard to population. Some people are acting like minorities are getting all the money and white people are shit out of luck, but that can't be right. Especially since most scholarships are privately funded.

[Flameon]

[url]http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/20110902racescholarships.pdf[/url]

[Ragekipz]

[QUOTE=Flameon;48510292][url]http://www.finaid.org/scholarships/20110902racescholarships.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]

The conclusion of the paper states that the focus should be on need-based grant, which is what we've been saying all along. The paper never state that you need race based scholarships for black people.

If you're poor, you're not going to be able to get a merit-based grant regardless of your race, they even state that most people that try these grants are rejected. You're going to go through the same shitty education system your grades will be shitty like everyone else. And then it complains about private grants favoring white students when federal grants already favor minorities.

[Flameon]

Are yall arguing that all merit based scholarships should be ended? I.e: scholarships for being a horseback rider, or scholarships for choosing to be a nurse, or scholarships for playing baseball in high school? Because I don't remember you arguing that. And in the mean time, who is gonna end these merit based scholarships? I dont see you complaining about these things existing, but you are complaining about the scholarships in place that seek to give black students an advantage compareable with their white peers.

[joes33431]

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;48510636]The conclusion of the paper states that the focus should be on need-based grant, which is what we've been saying all along. The paper never state that you need race based scholarships for black people.

If you're poor, you're not going to be able to get a merit-based grant regardless of your race, they even state that most people that try these grants are rejected. You're going to go through the same shitty education system your grades will be shitty like everyone else. And then it complains about private grants favoring white students when federal grants already favor minorities.[/QUOTE]

you only quoted part of their conclusions:

[QUOTE]This is compensated [B]somewhat[/B] by the distribution of need-based grants according to race, since minority students tend to be less affluent than Caucasian students. Shifting funding from merit-based grants to need-based grants will yield more balance in the distribution of grants according to race, [B]but it will not entirely compensate for private scholarships that collectively demonstrate implicit preferences for Caucasian students.[/B][/QUOTE]

it's true that since minorities are disproportionately impoverished, need-based aid would definitely help tip the racial balance.

however, it won't completely compensate for racial bias in private scholarships, which if i'm reading this correctly is the main issue in the OP. it's not a perfect solution, and other proposals are possible.

i'm ambivalent on the issue of affirmative action in education, but it's important to understand that the controversy is nuanced, and to read/quote evidence closely and properly.

[itisjuly]

[QUOTE=Flameon;48511749]Are yall arguing that all merit based scholarships should be ended? I.e: scholarships for being a horseback rider, or scholarships for choosing to be a nurse, or scholarships for playing baseball in high school? Because I don't remember you arguing that. And in the mean time, who is gonna end these merit based scholarships? I dont see you complaining about these things existing, but you are complaining about the scholarships in place that seek to give black students an advantage compareable with their white peers.[/QUOTE]
Merit based scholarships are about what you do, being black is not a hobby or an activity.

[Flameon]

[QUOTE=itisjuly;48511949]Merit based scholarships are about what you do, being black is not a hobby or an activity.[/QUOTE]

[quote=In Reference to Ragekipz thinking he read the conclusion of the article]
These statistics demonstrate that, as a whole, private sector scholarship programs tend to perpetuate
historical inequities in the distribution of scholarships according to race. This does not appear to be due to
deliberate discrimination, but rather as a natural result of the personal interests of the scholarship
sponsors. Scholarship sponsors tend to establish scholarships that select for characteristics, activities and
talents of interest to them. These factors, in turn, tend to resonate with students of the same racial
background as the sponsor. For example, African-American students are much less likely to participate in
equestrian sports (horseback riding, polo, rodeo), water sports (scuba diving, sailing, surfing, swimming,
crew, water polo) and winter sports (ice hockey, skiing, snowboarding, figure skating) than Caucasian
students. They are much more likely to pursue basketball, track & field, handball and football. The
sponsors of rodeo scholarships aren’t motivated by a desire to indirectly discriminate against minority students; they just like to promote rodeo. But the net result is that private scholarships as a whole
disproportionately select for Caucasian students. Similarly, golf, archery, cycling, weight lifting and
wrestling scholarships tend to implicitly select for Caucasian students.
Other characteristics that tend to naturally differentiate students and available scholarships according to
race include the following.
• National Origin or Heritage. There are a variety of scholarships restricted to students of
particular ethnicities that are predominantly or exclusively Caucasian, such as students of
Croatian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, French Canadian, German, Greek, Hungarian, Irish, Italian,
Jewish, Lithuanian, Norwegian, Polish, Romanian, Russian, Scandinavian, Scottish, Serbian,
Slavic, Slovak, Swedish, Swiss, Ukrainian and Welsh heritage.
• Geography. The racial distribution varies by state. Students from Idaho, Iowa, Maine, New
Hampshire, North Dakota, Vermont, West Virginia and Wyoming are disproportionately likely to
be Caucasian while Caucasian students from California, Georgia, Hawaii, Maryland, New
Mexico, Texas and Washington DC are no longer in the majority. African-American students are
more likely to come from Washington DC, Georgia, Maryland, Mississippi, Louisiana, South
Carolina, Alabama, North Carolina and Virginia, and less likely to come from Montana, Idaho,
South Dakota, Wyoming, Utah, North Dakota, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Oregon, New
Mexico and Iowa.
• Field of Study. African-American students are more likely to pursue majors in black studies,
urban studies, petroleum engineering, cosmetology and public administration, and less likely to
pursue the physical sciences, economics, conservation, forestry, horticulture, gerontology and
education. The opposite is true of Caucasian students. Students majoring in Latin American
Studies, Hispanic Studies, and Spanish Language Teacher Education are more likely to be Latino
than Caucasian. Latino students also tend to major in Business, Architecture, Criminal Justice,
Fashion Modeling and Culinary Arts.
• Religion. African-American students are more likely to be Methodist, Episcopalian, Pentecostal,
Seventh-day Adventist, Baptist and Muslim and are less likely to be Presbyterian, Roman
Catholic, Wiccan, Lutheran, Jewish, Mormon or Hindu. Latino students are more likely to be
Roman Catholic. Religions where the majority of students are Caucasian include Lutheran,
Jewish, Greek Orthodox, Mennonite, Mormon, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Wiccan,
United Church of Christ and Quaker. Religions where the majority of students are not Caucasian
include Hindu, Methodist, Episcopalian, Muslim, Jehovah's Witness, Seventh-day Adventist,
Buddhist, Pentecostal, Church of God and Baha'i.
Overall, merit-based grants tend to disproportionately select for Caucasian students. This is compensated
somewhat by the distribution of need-based grants according to race, since minority students tend to be
less affluent than Caucasian students. Shifting funding from merit-based grants to need-based grants will
yield more balance in the distribution of grants according to race, but it will not entirely compensate for
private scholarships that collectively demonstrate implicit preferences for Caucasian students. [/quote]

[Ragekipz]

[QUOTE=joes33431;48511813]you only quoted part of their conclusions:

it's true that since minorities are disproportionately impoverished, need-based aid would definitely help tip the racial balance.

however, it won't completely compensate for racial bias in private scholarships, which if i'm reading this correctly is the main issue in the OP. it's not a perfect solution, and other proposals are possible.

i'm ambivalent on the issue of affirmative action in education, but it's important to understand that the controversy is nuanced, and to read/quote evidence closely and properly.[/QUOTE]

The issue in the OP is that the guy lied to get the scholarship. If the scholarship is or isn't racist doesn't factor into that.

[joes33431]

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;48514053]The issue in the OP is that the guy lied to get the scholarship.[/QUOTE]

that's disputed. [url=http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/20/1413881/-Race-love-hate-and-me-A-distinctly-American-story]king says[/url] that he was born of an affair which his mother had with a light-skinned black man, even if his legal father was a white man.

if you ask me, i'd say he was unfairly targeted by factually-dubious media circles, which were trying to capitalize off of the recent rachel dolezal scandal. in fact, if it weren't for dolezal, i seriously doubt that anyone would have even reported on this, which is ridiculous, since they're two unconnected individuals with wildly different circumstances.

remember, the OP is the daily mail, which is for all intents and purposes the go-to place for trash journalism, and is known for pumping out manufactured controversies disguised as legitimate output.

[quote]If the scholarship is or isn't racist doesn't factor into that.[/quote]

was more referring to the fact that the OP involves a black-only scholarship, not grants of any kind.

[Flameon]

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;48514053]The issue in the OP is that the guy lied to get the scholarship. If the scholarship is or isn't racist doesn't factor into that.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Flameon;48496565]right but the point of AA biz is counteract the systemic discrimination by creating a policy to make an impact now while changing societal consciousness takes time.

i really dont wanna say more on this because it is so tertiarily related to this "news" story.

Even if you think they are bullshit im pretty sure king
1.) Is Biracial
2.) Faces discrimination insofar as he is marked and identifies himself as a Black person so he would qualify for the scholarship

and that this news biz is only drumming up Drama over King to assault his ethos because they want him to shut up over police brutality[/QUOTE]