British teaching unions say sexism is culturally maintained by women themselves. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40124131]So, how has sexualization gotten worse in the past 50 or so years?[/QUOTE] I don't care what side of any issue this is, but if you're asking a sensible question about the media that ends in "gotten worse in the past fifty years", your answer is [I]yes[/I]. Just fucking [I]yes[/I], every time. The nature of media has just changed so much since then.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;40124372]Why are you shit-posting? You are not even proving a point.[/QUOTE] dude im sorry again, im not subscribed to /r/MRA like you, im new to this, can you give me your wisdom instead dunno how to tell girls not to be proud of their body nor blame them for sexism without sounding you know, sexist... you're good at i think, teach me?

feminists = woemen who arent even in the kitchen making sandwiches LOL AMIRITE FELLAS???

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;40124406]dunno how to tell girls not to be proud of their body nor blame them for sexism without sounding you know, sexist...[/QUOTE] If you can't honestly find a way to value women without sounding sexist, then I hate to break it to you - you probably are.

im really confused i feel like nodachi and lolwutdude are both calling eachother sexist because they're both misinterpreting eachothers attempts at calling one another sexist i'm pretty sure neither of yall are sexist what are you guys doing

[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;40124405]I don't care what side of any issue this is, but if you're asking a sensible question about the media that ends in "gotten worse in the past fifty years", your answer is [I]yes[/I]. Just fucking [I]yes[/I], every time. The nature of media has just changed so much since then.[/QUOTE] I don't think the media has gotten worse in the past five decades. In fact, I think it's improved, but people choose to only focus on the downsides.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;40124447]If you can't honestly find a way to value women without sounding sexist, then I hate to break it to you - you probably are.[/QUOTE] no im not, im an egalitarian!

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40124483]im really confused i feel like nodachi and lolwutdude are both calling eachother sexist because they're both misinterpreting eachothers attempts at calling one another sexist i'm pretty sure neither of yall are sexist what are you guys doing[/QUOTE] I wasn't calling him sexist really. I just thought his last post (all of his posts) were logically flawed.

i don't really see much wrong with sexualization or whatever, just how it's all different for dudes and chicks i.e. if a dude fucks heaps he's considered a hero but if a chick does shes a disgusting slut etc i think that is wrong

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40124488]I don't think the media has gotten worse in the past five decades. In fact, I think it's improved, but people choose to only focus on the downsides.[/QUOTE] Exactly this, which is why I posted... [QUOTE=Pretty Obscure;40124361]I'm just going to leave this here... [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/mTDlZyV.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40124488]I don't think the media has gotten worse in the past five decades. In fact, I think it's improved, but people choose to only focus on the downsides.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying that the media as a whole has gotten worse; but if you're asking a question like that it's highly likely that you're focusing heavily on an individual aspect.

Remember if you think media has gotten worse, do remember you have access to a whole lot more today than a rich man 50 years ago. You have the entirety of human knowledge and media at your fingertips in the internet. That's an improvement and this is the single best point in the entirety of human history. We've never had it so good.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40124311]So what is the solution to this problem?[/QUOTE] Media is art, art breeds discussion, art discussion results in new art. The solution is to keep talking about it, and criticizing it when it's a problem. You can't force people to stop playing games and watching movies that sexualize women and you shouldn't, but if it gradually becomes an undesirable thing the people who make the media will slowly shift to a fairer representation of women in their product [editline]1st April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;40124321]So the feminist movement is reporting diminishing returns?[/QUOTE] I'm not entirely sure about the actual use of that term so I had to wiki it to see what you meant, but am I correct in assuming that you're asking me if too much feminism is making feminism less effective?

Strip clubs are more of a symptom rather than a cause. The very way we raise children of certain genders is pretty much solely responsible along with marketing.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40124538]Remember if you think media has gotten worse, do remember you have access to a whole lot more today than a rich man 50 years ago. You have the entirety of human knowledge and media at your fingertips in the internet. That's an improvement and this is the single best point in the entirety of human history. We've never had it so good.[/QUOTE] All the good comes with all the bad Which in itself is good because we can criticize it easier and faster than ever before [editline]1st April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=carcarcargo;40124646]Strip clubs are more of a symptom rather than a cause. The very way we raise children of certain genders is pretty much solely responsible.[/QUOTE] Strip clubs would have a place in a completely equal society as well, lord knows I'm no prude

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40124650] Strip clubs would have a place in a completely equal society as well, lord knows I'm no prude[/QUOTE] It's rather rare to see a male strip club and there is a pretty big reason for that.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40124607]Media is art, art breeds discussion, art discussion results in new art. The solution is to keep talking about it, and criticizing it when it's a problem. You can't force people to stop playing games and watching movies that sexualize women and you shouldn't, but if it gradually becomes an undesirable thing the people who make the media will slowly shift to a fairer representation of women in their product[/QUOTE] what i don't understand about this is, with video games and with movies etc the characters are just that, characters, they are written how the writer wants them.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40124607]Media is art, art breeds discussion, art discussion results in new art. The solution is to keep talking about it, and criticizing it when it's a problem. You can't force people to stop playing games and watching movies that sexualize women and you shouldn't, but if it gradually becomes an undesirable thing the people who make the media will slowly shift to a fairer representation of women in their product[/quote] So letting the free market decide? [quote]I'm not entirely sure about the economic use of that term but am I correct in assuming that you're asking me if too much feminism is making feminism less effective?[/QUOTE] The biggest gains for women are made first (voting, marriage legislation, protection). As more problems are solved and equality comes about (declining pay gap, declining violence against women), the remaining problems to solve brings about smaller returns (sexualization in the media for instance). Like, by the time women and men are nearly equal, barely anybody will care or work towards finishing because so much has already been achieved that it looks like its over.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;40124665]It's rather rare to see a male strip club and there is a pretty big reason for that.[/QUOTE] It's unfortunate, but I think that starts to tread into homophobia more than sexism. I think a male strip club would be mostly enjoyed by gay men (correct me if I'm wrong ladies) and working at or patronizing a place like that would be seen as shameful because being gay is still kind of seen as shameful.

should the illiad be rewritten to make the goddesses not seem vain and obsessed with their image? or to make helen not the cause of the war? should an artist have any obligation to anyone other than themselves when it comes to their own creation

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40124729]what i don't understand about this is, with video games and with movies etc the characters are just that, characters, they are written how the writer wants them.[/QUOTE] And if writers over and over want their female characters to be mindless sex objects it points to a problem with how society sees women, and affirms that women are mindless sex objects to other people, who then create female characters as mindless sex objects and the shit loop continues [editline]1st April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Lachz0r;40124782]should the illiad be rewritten to make the goddesses not seem vain and obsessed with their image? or to make helen not the cause of the war? should an artist have any obligation to anyone other than themselves when it comes to their own creation[/QUOTE] No obligation at all but a re-imagining of the illiad would be cool

I'm just going to leave off with this, sexualization isn't always sexism. Take Bayonetta for example. She is undisputably sexualized, but nothing about the character is necessarily sexist. She is a strong, intelligent, well liked protagonist in her own right. The problem of sexualization stems from those who see something they don't like, such as cleavage, which is [B]not[/B] objectively sexist and then self righteously deem it sexist because they disagree with it. And sexualization will really always be an issue considering people are sexually triggered by many different things. CFNM is a pretty common fetish, and at it's focus it is based off of fully clothed, arguably non-sexualized women.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40124762]So letting the free market decide?[/quote] That's sort of what any slow social change is, so maybe? [QUOTE=Sobotnik;40124762]The biggest gains for women are made first (voting, marriage legislation, protection). As more problems are solved and equality comes about (declining pay gap, declining violence against women), the remaining problems to solve brings about smaller returns (sexualization in the media for instance). [b]Like, by the time women and men are nearly equal, barely anybody will care or work towards finishing because so much has already been achieved that it looks like its over.[/b][/QUOTE] I'd agree with that. If equality is a point on a graph then we'll probably get asymptotically close to it but never really get there

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40124772]It's unfortunate, but I think that starts to tread into homophobia more than sexism. I think a male strip club would be mostly enjoyed by gay men (correct me if I'm wrong ladies) and working at or patronizing a place like that would be seen as shameful because being gay is still kind of seen as shameful.[/QUOTE] I think a lot of it is more too do with the emphasis put on womens looks as compared to men.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40124782]should the illiad be rewritten to make the goddesses not seem vain and obsessed with their image? or to make helen not the cause of the war? should an artist have any obligation to anyone other than themselves when it comes to their own creation[/QUOTE] obviously no old stuff should be rewritten that's just silly and no on a small scale no artist should have any real obligation to worry about what his art says or whether it conforms to any sort of ideal but if you're marketing a piece of art as a product that you sell for $60 to a large audience of children and teenagers then it wouldn't hurt to get with the times

[QUOTE=NoDachi;40124339]Way to go and not understand a thing.[/QUOTE] I don't even know what's he's going on about these days. He once went from making a sarcastic comment about excessive political correctness to making Sanius look like Hugh Heffner in the course of a single thread.

[QUOTE=Pretty Obscure;40124823]I'm just going to leave off with this, sexualization isn't always sexism. Take Bayonetta for example. She is undisputably sexualized, but nothing about the character is necessarily sexist. She is a strong, intelligent, well liked protagonist in her own right. The problem of sexualization stems from those who see something they don't like, such as cleavage, which is [B]not[/B] objectively sexist and then self righteously deem it sexist because they disagree with it. And sexualization will really always be an issue considering people are sexually triggered by many different things. CFNM is a pretty common fetish, and at it's focus it is based off of fully clothed, arguably non-sexualized women.[/QUOTE] To see if a fictional female character is sexist is to just ask yourself, "does this empower women or exploit them?" I never played Bayonetta and my experience with the game is watching gamegrumps play it so I can't answer that question. It seems Jon and Arin tried to answer it but Jon started singing instead and then made some loud noises. CFNM is also interesting but it starts to get into my own biases so I won't run my mouth about it thisispain, help, you talk about it for a while thanks

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;40124846]obviously no old stuff should be rewritten that's just silly and no on a small scale no artist should have any real obligation to worry about what his art says or whether it conforms to any sort of ideal but if you're marketing a piece of art as a product that you sell for $60 to a large audience of children and teenagers then it wouldn't hurt to get with the times[/QUOTE] well yeah okay i kinda get you guys now, personally though i don't think anything made with profit as an intent as art but yeah i guess mass media should be more scrutinized for that kinda stuff

[QUOTE=Pretty Obscure;40124823]She is undisputably sexualized, but nothing about the character is necessarily sexist. She is a strong, intelligent, well liked protagonist in her own right[/QUOTE] i think the issue is more that her strength and intelligence and ridiculously sexualised appearance only plays into the hands of fetishistic male players and isn't at all aspirational for women... she's basically a dominatrix where-as on the other hand you've got a plethora of well-written male characters that are barely sexualised at all and appeal really well to typically male traits and are wonderful fantasy characters for men; characters like nathan drake and others. the question is, where are the well-written middleground female characters that actually have character arcs and positive qualities that go beyond pandering to what men want to see or what, alternatively, men would think is subversive to accepted culture (and therefore a big turn on, like bayonetta) there are a few examples but the balance isn't really there currently

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40124887]well yeah okay i kinda get you guys now, personally though i don't think anything made with profit as an intent as art but yeah i guess mass media should be more scrutinized for that kinda stuff[/QUOTE] I don't think there'd even be problem with criticizing really old art for being sexist/racist/etc, as long as you're aware of the time when it was made and frame your criticism accordingly. History is a powerful tool for understanding the present. It's only a problem when you start trying to ban things.