British teaching unions say sexism is culturally maintained by women themselves. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40125329]Alyx Vance She's attractive, smart, and has a "feminine personality" without being a stereotype Let's point to half-life instead of bayonetta for examples of a good female character[/QUOTE] She's also a frequent detriment to Freeman's progress and has only really been useful to you when the game throws an unavoidable roadblock in your path.

[QUOTE=Pretty Obscure;40125408]Nobody plays a game and sees an elf with armor that exposes her breasts and goes "that's what women should look like!"[/quote] you say that but it's kinda over-simplifying the issue to the point where it's obviously going to sound ridiculous. the problem with gender-roles and other things like this is that they're mostly subconscious and take many years of alteration to change. obviously no one looks at bayonetta and says "wowee all women should look like that. those who don't just aren't worth my time!" but it's a continuation of an image that is in all aspects of the media as the 'ideal woman' (in terms of shape) that is very hard to achieve. obviously this image is going to effect people and their views on life because they see it everywhere they go hundreds and hundreds of times a day [quote]and if they do, they don't go on to force women to dress as elves in scanty armor, they turn to other games or weird hentai or something where it is readily available. That or they look for a girl with similar interests, which do actually exist these days.[/QUOTE] this is just silly

[QUOTE=Aredbomb;40125454]She's also a frequent detriment to Freeman's progress and has only really been useful to you when the game throws an unavoidable roadblock in your path.[/QUOTE] Alyx and Dog save your ass quite a few times, she's only a hindrance sometimes because Valve doesn't know how to program AI

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;40125462]you say that but it's kinda over-simplifying the issue to the point where it's obviously going to sound ridiculous. the problem with gender-roles and other things like this is that they're mostly subconscious and take many years of alteration to change. obviously no one looks at bayonetta and says "wowee all women should look like that. those who don't just aren't worth my time!" but it's a continuation of an image that is in all aspects of the media as the 'ideal woman' (in terms of shape) that is very hard to achieve. obviously this image is going to effect people and their views on life because they see it everywhere they go hundreds and hundreds of times a day[/QUOTE] this pretty much sums up everything to be said in this argument u saved me the trouble

I'm tempted to say Elizabeth is a good female character, but a more cynical part of me suspects she was made to be nerd pandering waifu material like Tali.

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;40125299]but there's a big line between casting attractive leads (because people find it easier to aspire to be and empathise more with attractive people) and over-sexualising all your characters of a particular gender attractive male lead: [t]http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111213235852/uncharted/images/5/5d/Nathan_Drake_render.jpg[/t] sexualised female lead: [t]http://uk.playstation.com/media/gsVgmHsG/BayonettaHero.jpg[/t] and then there's plenty of male leads who aren't attractive at all really [t]http://cdn420.ripten.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/marcus-fenix-gears21.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] What I don't get is that whenever a male character is sexualized, nobody gives a damn. But the second a female character starts showing a bit of skin, everyone goes up in arms. Like for example, the new DMC reboot has a butt naked Dante flying through the air in slow motion. I never heard a single complaint about it. Nobody claimed sexism when in MGS4 Vamp was jumping around half dressed doing homoerotic shit to Raiden. Nobody complained when Snake walked around the whole game with his man butt showing. Hell in Mgs2 you were literally naked sneaking around a facility. If people are gonna complain about sexualization then they should atleast do it for both genders.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;40125485]I'm tempted to say Elizabeth is a good female character, but a more cynical part of me suspects she was made to be nerd pandering waifu material like Tali.[/QUOTE] i haven't gotten around to playing the game yet but i'm putting off saying she's sexualised because i'm pretty sure it's just supposed to be historical then again she is really prominent in so much of the promotional art as a damsel that i can't argue that fully, especially having not played the game

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;40125517]i haven't gotten around to playing the game yet but i'm putting off saying she's sexualised because i'm pretty sure it's just supposed to be historical then again she is really prominent in so much of the promotional art as a damsel that i can't argue that fully, especially having not played the game[/QUOTE] Well there's more to it than sexulization. I'm just saying the there's certain qualities that made the Tali threads 50 times longer than the other ones than the other RIs, and my theory is that it's some combination of smart, cute, and most importantly, vulnerability.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40125466]Alyx and Dog save your ass quite a few times, she's only a hindrance sometimes because Valve doesn't know how to program AI[/QUOTE] You ass gets "saved" because the linear game design decides to throw roadblocks in your path every now and then in order to keep you from going off track and Alyx happens to have a device that can get around them. There are multiple occasions where they themselves cause these roadblocks to appear. They're slaves to the linear design.

[QUOTE=DinoJesus;40125496]What I don't get is that whenever a male character is sexualized, nobody gives a damn. But the second a female character starts showing a bit of skin, everyone goes up in arms. Like for example, the new DMC reboot has a butt naked Dante flying through the air in slow motion. I never heard a single complaint about it. Nobody claimed sexism when in MGS4 Vamp was jumping around half dressed doing homoerotic shit to Raiden. Nobody complained when Snake walked around the whole game with his man butt showing. Hell in Mgs2 you were literally naked sneaking around a facility. If people are gonna complain about sexualization then they should atleast do it for both genders.[/QUOTE] we've kinda been over this with the whole aspirational male fantasy vs sexualisation but i think i can target it specifically at mgs (but i haven't played dmc): vamp is a bad guy. his sexual deviance is supposed to be frightening and off-putting because of all the ways to die, no one wants to get killed by a cannibalistic snm dude. it isn't about being sexy raiden and snake getting naked is another one. part of me does think that's sexualisation but then it's so tame compared to the female character design in that game that mostly i reckon it's more to do with humour (i mean raiden can do cartwheels and remain with his hands perfectly over his nob. i can't see any design choice for that other than humour) [QUOTE=Mingebox;40125556]Well there's more to it than sexulization. I'm just saying the there's certain qualities that made the Tali threads 50 times longer than the other ones than the other RIs, and my theory is that it's some combination of smart, cute, and most importantly, vulnerability.[/QUOTE] aye video games can be interesting in this way actually because the demographic for a lot of them is so different from your average movie-goer or book reader. i think most stereotypical men would be more attracted to ashley or the other women but it seems like a lot of the nerdier (i didnt really want to use that word but then again we are talking about people who write erotic fan fiction here) seem to go for the mysterious, exotic, vulnerable girl

[QUOTE=Aredbomb;40125558]You ass gets "saved" because the linear game design decides to throw roadblocks in your path every now and then in order to keep you from going off track and Alyx happens to have a device that can get around them. There are multiple occasions where they themselves cause these roadblocks to appear. They're slaves to the linear design.[/QUOTE] Personality development in games requires linearity, we don't have the processing power to procedurally develop characters yet.

I'm going to wrap up with one final observation, and that is that the main argument always starts on gender roles, female characters being the damsels, or being portrayed as ditsy, or being seemingly useless, and then as soon as someone goes and provides a character that shatters these perceptions and becomes strong smart protagonists that can handle themselves, the argument breaks down into "Yeah, but she's hot. That's sexist." which is just preposterous. That is exactly why I used Bayonetta as an example and carried out this argument, to show you your own flawed logic and counter-productive bias. Bayonetta is a character that breaks gender role barriers but she is sexist because she looks good. Male characters in games always look good, but that's not sexist because they're males and the expectations are different and it's only natural for a developer to want to make their character attractive to appeal to the audience. Alyx Vance is a non-sexualized character but she is often useless and often appears to directly hinder Freeman's progress (despite that being true to nearly all secondary characters regardless of sex or even race) that makes her also sexist. Read over those three statements and realize those are all literal examples of your bias in this thread alone.

you keep saying "looks good" like bayonetta is a mildly attractive woman but she's actually one of the most hypersexualised characters in games of recent years. your whole argument is flawed because of that because you can't possibly offer an example of a male character who is sexualised to that degree. and i've already argued that she doesn't break down gender rolls for any purpose other than to appeal as a fetish object. if she was a strong character without her ridiculous appearance then this might be different but you can't possibly argue a character is not sexist just because she is strong when she is strong [i]and dressed like a dominatrix[/i] also: the 'sexualisation' of male characters is not a sexualisation at all, it's just a fantasy propagated by men for men - it's not about sex at all. we've already been over this a lot and only one person is saying alyx is useless. tbh i think she probably has as many moments where she helps you out with her strength/cunning/tools as she does where she messes up to be mostly exempt from criticism

[QUOTE=Pretty Obscure;40125639]Bayonetta is a character that breaks gender role barriers[/QUOTE] But she doesn't. Just as Zizek said 20 years ago with regards to when these kind of female characters are constructed with regards to how he sees it as modern day 'courtly love' . [I][C]ourtly love appears as simply the most radical strategy for elevating the value of the object by putting up conventional obstacles to its attainability. . . . The point, therefore, is not simply that we set up additional conventional hindrances in order to heighten the value of the object: external hindrances that thwart our access to the object are there precisely to create the illusion that wihout them, the object would be directly accessible—what such hindrances thereby conceal is the inherent impossibility of attaining the object. The place of the Lady-Thing is originally empty: she functions as a kind of ‘black hole’ around which the subject’s desire is structured. The space of desire is bent like space in the theory of relativity; the only way to reach the Object-Lady is indirectly, in a devious, meandering way—proceeding straight on ensures that we miss the target. This is what Lacan has in mind when, apropos of courtly love, he evokes ‘the meaning we must attribute to the negotiation of the detour in the psychic economy’[/I] These fictitious women are constructed 'strong' to service another male sex fantasy. Not to empower women. Its still an age old gender role.

[QUOTE=Pretty Obscure;40125639]I'm going to wrap up with one final observation, and that is that the main argument always starts on gender roles, female characters being the damsels, or being portrayed as ditsy, or being seemingly useless, and then as soon as someone goes and provides a character that shatters these perceptions and becomes strong smart protagonists that can handle themselves, the argument breaks down into "Yeah, but she's hot. That's sexist." which is just preposterous. That is exactly why I used Bayonetta as an example and carried out this argument, to show you your own flawed logic and counter-productive bias. Bayonetta is a character that breaks gender role barriers but she is sexist because she looks good. Male characters in games always look good, but that's not sexist because they're males and the expectations are different and it's only natural for a developer to want to make their character attractive to appeal to the audience. Alyx Vance is a non-sexualized character but she is often useless and often appears to directly hinder Freeman's progress (despite that being true to nearly all secondary characters regardless of sex or even race) that makes her also sexist. Read over those three statements and realize those are all literal examples of your bias in this thread alone.[/QUOTE] that's the problem. bayonetta is your unrealistic determination of what is 'good' in a woman, a barely-clothed woman without a wasteline who also happens to have massive tits. its games like bayonetta that also subconciously perpetuate that a woman should be like her.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40125432]You're fine with it because they're not sexualizing male characters they're making a power fantasy out of them. The men in games don't look good for eye candy they look good because they're the fit and rugged hero who saves the day Come to think, Bayonetta might be some strange hybrid between sexualization and a female power fantasy actually[/QUOTE] Let me ask you something. Why is it that when a game features an attractive man, it's a power fantasy, but when it's an attractive women it's a piece of eyecandy? When an attractive male character saves the day, it's considered acceptable. When an attractive female character does the exact same thing, it's labeled demeaning. If you're pushing for equality, why are you so against games staring attractive women? How do you see a female character kicking ass and getting shit done as a negative portrayal? Would you rather she be portrayed as ugly and incapable? Or is that also sexist too? I feel like you don't even know what you want. Games are featuring women more now than ever. You guys seem to find problems in every single role though. If a female character is weak you guys consider her a damsel. If she's strong she's a demeaning power fantasy. If she's attractive she's eyecandy. Honestly, it's like your requirements can never be satisfied.

[QUOTE=DinoJesus;40125697]Let me ask you something. Why is it that when a game features an attractive man, it's a power fantasy, but when it's an attractive women it's a piece of eyecandy? When an attractive male character saves the day, it's considered acceptable. When an attractive female character does the exact same thing, it's labeled demeaning. If you're pushing for equality, why are you so against games staring attractive women? How do you see a female character kicking ass and getting shit done as a negative portrayal? Would you rather she be portrayed as ugly and incapable? Or is that also sexist too? I feel like you don't even know what you want. Games are featuring women more now than ever. You guys seem to find problems in every single role though. If a female character is weak you guys consider her a damsel. If she's strong she's a demeaning power fantasy. If she's attractive she's eyecandy. Honestly, it's like your requirements can never be satisfied.[/QUOTE] It's a shame to see Shaquille O'Neal's 90's PSAs were in vain.

[QUOTE=DinoJesus;40125697]Let me ask you something. Why is it that when a game features an attractive man, it's a power fantasy, but when it's an attractive women it's a piece of eyecandy?[/quote] because a man wrote the game and the game gets targeted at a male audience? obviously no one wrote nathan drake and marcus fenix for girls to fap over [quote]When an attractive male character saves the day, it's considered acceptable. When an attractive female character does the exact same thing, it's labeled demeaning.[/quote] no it's not labelled demeaning because she saves the day. it's labelled demeaning if she saves the day dressed like a dominatrix [quote]If you're pushing for equality, why are you so against games staring attractive women? How do you see a female character kicking ass and getting shit done as a negative portrayal? Would you rather she be portrayed as ugly and incapable? Or is that also sexist too?[/quote] no there's this incredible thing called a middleground. it's quite fascinating [quote]I feel like you don't even know what you want. Games are featuring women more now than ever. You guys seem to find problems in every single role though. If a female character is weak you guys consider her a damsel. If she's strong she's a demeaning power fantasy. If she's attractive she's eyecandy.[/quote] there's a middleground where you have female characters as well developed and as well rounded as the male characters with proper story arcs. there's very few of them [quote]Honestly, it's like your requirements can never be satisfied.[/QUOTE] faith alyx vance done

[QUOTE=DinoJesus;40125496]What I don't get is that whenever a male character is sexualized, nobody gives a damn. But the second a female character starts showing a bit of skin, everyone goes up in arms. Like for example, the new DMC reboot has a butt naked Dante flying through the air in slow motion. I never heard a single complaint about it. Nobody claimed sexism when in MGS4 Vamp was jumping around half dressed doing homoerotic shit to Raiden. Nobody complained when Snake walked around the whole game with his man butt showing. Hell in Mgs2 you were literally naked sneaking around a facility. If people are gonna complain about sexualization then they should atleast do it for both genders.[/QUOTE] Snake was not sexualised in mgs4, he's an old man for goodness sake.

jesus it's like you think if you throw enough straw at the fire it'll go out

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;40125729]jesus it's like you think if you throw enough straw at the fire it'll go out[/QUOTE] [sp]the funny part is that[/sp][sp]that's exactly what you're doing[/sp] [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Spoiler tag abuse" - MaxOfS2D))[/highlight]

you're wrong i'm sorry

[QUOTE=DinoJesus;40125697]If a female character is weak you guys consider her a damsel. If she's strong she's a demeaning power fantasy. If she's attractive she's eyecandy.[/QUOTE] Because its to do with construction and consumption. There lies the problem.

Bayonetta is really one of the worst possible examples you could have chosen. That's up there with the Lollipop Chainsaw character. Alyx Vance. She helps Gordon when he's blown off the top of a giant tower, he helps her when she's stabbed in the back and dying. There's no sexualization. There's a little bit of flirty tension but it's about as innocent as possible. She's attractive without being a busty, half-naked sex object. The new Lara Croft. She's independent, attractive, strong, and has an incredibly well-crafted personality. She does some cool shit and doesn't conform to the gender stereotypes everyone complains about. And this came from the most sexualized video game character ever. Chell. She doesn't talk but she's the protagonist and she manages to rescue herself. No damsel in distress. It's like if somebody is attractive they're automatically a sex object. That's not true. You people are criticizing linearity without recognizing that it is necessary for strong characters. You can be a female in Skyrim that is not sexualized in any way. You have the exact fucking same character choices as a male character. There is absolutely no difference aside from appearance. Is that an issue? The female and male characters are equal in every respect. In the Fallout games the only difference is a single perk. In Left 4 Dead you have Zoey and Rochelle who are equal in every respect to the male characters. They are not heavily sexualized whatsoever. Even in Saints Row you have Shaundi, who, while more sexualized than Zoey or Rochelle or Chell or Alyx, is still a strong character without excessive sexual undertones. And that's in a game that is not remotely renowned for its story. Give me a game that has an oversexualized female lead and I'll give you three that have strong ones. You're bitching about something that only exists in poorly-written games. Guess what? Poorly-written movies have the same problem. Poorly-written books can have the same problem, too. It's a shit way to pander to horny audiences. Oversexualization of female characters is a [I]symptom[/I] of poor writing and underlying sexist undertones in society. It's not the cause of it. Like a disease, you can attack the symptoms for some relief, but the issue will carry on. Fix the disease, not the symptom, and you'll have a case that I will absolutely stand for. In the meantime, this complaining about oversexualization is bullshit.

[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;40125720]because a man wrote the game and the game gets targeted at a male audience? obviously no one wrote nathan drake and marcus fenix for girls to fap over no it's not labelled demeaning because she saves the day. it's labelled demeaning if she saves the day dressed like a dominatrix no there's this incredible thing called a middleground. it's quite fascinating there's a middleground where you have female characters as well developed and as well rounded as the male characters with proper story arcs. there's very few of them faith alyx vance done[/QUOTE] 1) Do you know how game development works? No one man creates the whole character. A group of people (Not always one gender composes it) work together to create the character. Artists (can be of either gender) create concept art, and a 3d modeler (once again can be of either gender) creates the character. 2) Wait, so female characters can't wear outfits if they're sexual? But when Raiden is doing naked cartwheels it's allowed. Thats insanely hypocritical. 3) You're examples for good female characters are shallow as hell. Alyx barely had any real personality. She was in the middle of the shithole 17 uprising, her parents were dead, and she was wanted by the combine. Despite all that she was overall pretty cheery and wise cracking. Besides, this "positive portrayal" spent most of the games waiting for Gordon to get things done. Mirrors edge barely had any plot. Faith had little backstory, and the only aspect to her character was that she does parkour. She could have been replaced with a man and the plot would stay the same.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;40125844]Bayonetta is really one of the worst possible examples you could have chosen. That's up there with the Lollipop Chainsaw character. Alyx Vance. She helps Gordon when he's blown off the top of a giant tower, he helps her when she's stabbed in the back and dying. There's no sexualization. There's a little bit of flirty tension but it's about as innocent as possible. She's attractive without being a busty, half-naked sex object. The new Lara Croft. She's independent, attractive, strong, and has an incredibly well-crafted personality. She does some cool shit and doesn't conform to the gender stereotypes everyone complains about. And this came from the most sexualized video game character ever. Chell. She doesn't talk but she's the protagonist and she manages to rescue herself. No damsel in distress. It's like if somebody is attractive they're automatically a sex object. That's not true. You people are criticizing linearity without recognizing that it is necessary for strong characters. You can be a female in Skyrim that is not sexualized in any way. You have the exact fucking same character choices as a male character. There is absolutely no difference aside from appearance. Is that an issue? The female and male characters are equal in every respect. In the Fallout games the only difference is a single perk. In Left 4 Dead you have Zoey and Rochelle who are equal in every respect to the male characters. They are not heavily sexualized whatsoever. Even in Saints Row you have Aisha, who, while more sexualized than Zoey or Rochelle or Chell or Alyx, is still a strong character without excessive sexual undertones. And that's in a game that is not remotely renowned for its story. Give me a game that has an oversexualized female lead and I'll give you three that have strong ones. You're bitching about something that only exists in poorly-written games. Guess what? Poorly-written movies have the same problem. Poorly-written books can have the same problem, too. It's a shit way to pander to horny audiences. Oversexualization of female characters is a symptom of poor writing and underlying sexist undertones in society. It's not the cause of it. Like a disease, you can attack the symptoms for some relief, but the issue will carry on. Fix the disease, not the symptom, and you'll have a case that I will absolutely stand for. In the meantime, this complaining about oversexualization is bullshit.[/QUOTE] The characters you named aren't oversexualized and are decent characters though. No one is saying a character being attractive = bad character. Sexualization by itself isn't bad, it becomes a problem when the character is poorly written and uninteresting so the developers sexualize the hell out of it just to make the player pay attention to them (i.e. Bayonetta, Lollipop Chainsaw, etc). I wouldn't list the player character in Fallout/Elder Scrolls though, since the character's gender is purely cosmetical.

[QUOTE=DinoJesus;40125697]Let me ask you something. Why is it that when a game features an attractive man, it's a power fantasy, but when it's an attractive women it's a piece of eyecandy? When an attractive male character saves the day, it's considered acceptable. When an attractive female character does the exact same thing, it's labeled demeaning. If you're pushing for equality, why are you so against games staring attractive women? How do you see a female character kicking ass and getting shit done as a negative portrayal? Would you rather she be portrayed as ugly and incapable? Or is that also sexist too? I feel like you don't even know what you want. Games are featuring women more now than ever. You guys seem to find problems in every single role though. If a female character is weak you guys consider her a damsel. If she's strong she's a demeaning power fantasy. If she's attractive she's eyecandy. Honestly, it's like your requirements can never be satisfied.[/QUOTE] learn the difference between attractiveness and hypersexualization. take a look at elizabeth from bioshock, i'd say she's attractive, and she does so without wearing shit that is purely designed to show off her ass and titties (well, maybe the titties a little bit but not to THAT extreme)

[QUOTE=DinoJesus;40125900]Mirrors edge barely had any plot. Faith had little backstory, and the only aspect to her character was that she does parkour. [B]She could have been replaced with a man and the plot would stay the same.[/B][/QUOTE] one of the many reasons faith is a good example of an attractive female lead that didn't exist solely for the sake of sex appeal

[QUOTE=Kopimi;40125946]one of the many reasons faith is a good example of an attractive female lead that didn't exist solely for the sake of sex appeal[/QUOTE] Exactly, its why the film Alien was brilliant when it came to the writing. The script writers didn't assign a single gender, only non-gender specific names. Ripply could have been played convincingly by both a male or a female actor.

[QUOTE=DinoJesus;40125900]1) Do you know how game development works? No one man creates the whole character. A group of people (Not always one gender composes it) work together to create the character. Artists (can be of either gender) create concept art, and a 3d modeler (once again can be of either gender) creates the character.[/QUOTE] um i'm not gonna pull my own degree or current job out of my ass but i know a bit yes. yes a whole group of people work towards making a character but generally there is a writer or small group of writers and all the artwork goes through one or two directors. regardless, you're arguing semantics because you could change that part of the post to "men wrote the game" and the argument is exactly the same. drop what few straws you have left [quote]2) Wait, so female characters can't wear outfits if they're sexual? But when Raiden is doing naked cartwheels it's allowed. Thats insanely hypocritical.[/quote] female characters in games aimed at men wearing sexual outfits are sex objects. a naked bloke in a game aimed at men doing cartwheels with his hands over his nob is comedy. it's like you think there's a 50/50 split in the gender demographic of the metal gear franchise and that kojima sat down and said "ooft we gotta put a bit of skin in there for the ladies eheheheh get raiden's dong out" [quote]3) You're examples for good female characters are shallow as hell. Alyx barely had any real personality. She was in the middle of the shithole 17 uprising, her parents were dead, and she was wanted by the combine. Despite all that she was overall pretty cheery and wise cracking. Besides, this "positive portrayal" spent most of the games waiting for Gordon to get things done. Mirrors edge barely had any plot. Faith had little backstory, and the only aspect to her character was that she does parkour. She could have been replaced with a man and the plot would stay the same.[/quote] calls me out for having standards that are too high/hypocritical nitpicks my choices of okay female video game characters as bad choices lmao