French President Francois Hollande has called for a 75 percent income tax on top earners in France t

[thisispain]

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36934818]but war destroys wealth, entrepreneurship creates it[/QUOTE]

war is one of the united states' greatest business ventures so i would disagree there.
it's all about the cost. sure entrepreneurship might create wealth, but it's the cost i care about.

[cornndog]

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36934663]but what about the people that did[/QUOTE]

What about the people that didn't.

[DainBramageStud]

[QUOTE=thisispain;36934838]war is one of the united states' greatest business ventures so i would disagree there.
it's all about the cost. sure entrepreneurship might create wealth, but it's the cost i care about.[/QUOTE]

refresh

[editline]25th July 2012[/editline]

[QUOTE=cornndog;36934864]What about the people that didn't.[/QUOTE]

they fucked up and I don't care one way or the other

[Sobotnik]

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36934875]refresh

[editline]25th July 2012[/editline]

they fucked up and I don't care one way or the other[/QUOTE]

Shit I'm bailing outta here.

[DainBramageStud]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;36934951]Shit I'm bailing outta here.[/QUOTE]

wait shit

i need you to help fight the marxist snowmobile

[Xenocidebot]

[QUOTE=Electrocuter;36934437]Read Xenocide's post, it seems like a lot but it's not, the taxes only affect an amount of money above a defined amount.

They could be taxed by 100% and still they would earn money.

Let's say that, that defined amount is 1 million and there's someone that earns 2 million, if he was taxed by 100% he would still earn 1 million so in reality this person is being taxed by only 50% of what he earns in total.

At least that's what I understood from Xenocide's post.[/QUOTE]
I'll just use the actual numbers.

This is France's current tax brackets (with a couple things simplified).

[table="width: 400, class: grid, align: left"]
[tr]
[td]Income slice (EUR)[/td]
[td]Slice tax rate[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]€5,963[/td]
[td]0%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]€5,964 - €11,896[/td]
[td]5.5%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]€11,897 - €26,420[/td]
[td]14%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td] €26,421 - €70,830[/td]
[td]30%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]€70,831 - €249,999[/td]
[td]41%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]€250,000 - €499,999[/td]
[td]44%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]€500,000+[/td]
[td]45%[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

These are the proposed tax brackets.

[table="width: 400, class: grid, align: left"]
[tr]
[td]Income slice (EUR)[/td]
[td]Slice tax rate[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]€5,963[/td]
[td]0%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]€5,964 - €11,896[/td]
[td]5.5%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]€11,897 - €26,420[/td]
[td]14%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td] €26,421 - €70,830[/td]
[td]30%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]€70,831 - €149,999[/td]
[td]41%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]€150,000 - €999,999[/td]
[td]45%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]€1,000,000+[/td]
[td]75%[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

What they're trying to do is make a bigger high-end bracket and shift the second highest bracket downward.

In any case, how this works is, you pay the slice rate on income within that slice. If you only make €5,963, you don't pay taxes. If you make €5,964, that €1 has a 5.5% tax applied to it. When, with taxes, you finally make €11,897, that €1 above €11,896 has an additional 14% tax applied to it. And it goes on like this across the brackets.

Governments explicitly do not attempt to tax all income at one rate on a graduated system because it [I]would[/I] cause you to be worse off if you made more money in certain circumstances. France, the U.S., everyone using a bracket system explicitly avoids this. People do try to shift brackets at times but it has to do with other factors.

[DainBramageStud]

[QUOTE=Xenocidebot;36934970]sexily-formatted statistics[/QUOTE]

thanks for the clarification

but gosh that is a big jump. if I were in the position of being in the second-highest bracket I'd seriously consider whether it was worth the effort to work a bit harder for only 25% of my paycheck

[Disotrtion]

Okay cause in America where we don't have tax brackets this would be outrageous.

[DainBramageStud]

[QUOTE=Disotrtion;36935123]Okay cause in America where we don't have tax brackets this would be outrageous.[/QUOTE]

USA does have tax brackets

[Coffee]

[QUOTE=znk666;36933762]They will still have make at least three times as much as any average person,i don't see how this tax rate is either stupid or unfair.
A bunch of rich people won't be able to afford their 9th car and a mansion,big fucking deal,the only reason why they're rich in the first place is the society and the government.
If hard work is what makes someone rich then everyone in Africa would be trillionaires.[/QUOTE]

Why are you generalising all rich people as people who do no work to get to where they are?

[SigmaLambda]

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36934663]but what about the people that did[/QUOTE]

both of them? well they were very lucky

[Political Gamer]

[QUOTE=Disotrtion;36935123]Okay cause in America where we don't have tax brackets this would be outrageous.[/QUOTE][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate_schedule_(federal_income_tax)[/url]

We do, just they are very low relativity speaking and needlessly complex.

[SigmaLambda]

[QUOTE=Coffee;36935150]Why are you generalising all rich people as people who do no work to get to where they are?[/QUOTE]

because you don't get rich by doing work, you get rich by either gaming the system or being born rich

[DainBramageStud]

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;36935169]both of them? well they were very lucky[/QUOTE]

go away, adults are talking

[Bentham]

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;36935185]because you don't get rich by doing work, you get rich by either gaming the system or being born rich[/QUOTE]

This is just moronic.

[Disotrtion]

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;36934639]and where you also are free to have the delusion that there is a faint possibility that you could be rich some day if you just worked hard enough[/QUOTE]
Because thats never happened before.

[DainBramageStud]

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;36935185]because you don't get rich by doing work, you get rich by either gaming the system or being born rich[/QUOTE]

a) gaming the system is hard work
b) being born rich doesn't necessarily make you stay rich. you can still fuck up and lose it all
c) you're willfully ignorant of people starting businesses and becoming wealthy from poorer backgrounds.

[Disotrtion]

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;36935185]because you don't get rich by doing work, you get rich by either gaming the system or being born rich[/QUOTE]
Oh god are you serious.

please say no

[Sobotnik]

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;36935185]because you don't get rich by doing work, you get rich by either gaming the system or being born rich[/QUOTE]

So how did the first rich people appear?

[SigmaLambda]

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36935205]c) you're willfully ignorant of people starting businesses and becoming wealthy from poorer backgrounds.[/QUOTE]

these are rare exceptions to the rule, dogg. the majority of new businesses fail within the first year. only the really fucking lucky manage to get anywhere

I'm sorry but I don't buy into the American dream; I think it's a delusion that the perpetually middle and lower class embrace because it gives them hope of advancing their station when, in fact, economic mobility is the lowest it's been in America in 60 years.

[Bentham]

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;36935291]these are rare exceptions to the rule, dogg. the majority of new businesses fail within the first year. only the really fucking lucky manage to get anywhere

I'm sorry but I don't buy into the American dream; I think it's a delusion that the perpetually middle and lower class embrace because it gives them hope of advancing their station when, in fact, economic mobility is the lowest it's been in America in 60 years.[/QUOTE]

It may be low but it's not zero like you seem to be assuming. It is still possible to work your way up. Is it hard? Yes, does it take work? Yes. But acting like everyone who has made enough money to fill that slot is just lazy and didn't work for it is just ridiculous.

[Coldmute]

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;36935291]these are rare exceptions to the rule, dogg. the majority of new businesses fail within the first year. only the really fucking lucky manage to get anywhere

I'm sorry but I don't buy into the American dream; I think it's a delusion that the perpetually middle and lower class embrace because it gives them hope of advancing their station when, in fact, economic mobility is the lowest it's been in America in 60 years.[/QUOTE]There's a reason they call it "The American Dream". It isn't a reality. It is just that, a dream. A fantasy.

[DainBramageStud]

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;36935291]these are rare exceptions to the rule, dogg. the majority of new businesses fail within the first year. only the really fucking lucky manage to get anywhere

I'm sorry but I don't buy into the American dream; I think it's a delusion that the perpetually middle and lower class embrace because it gives them hope of advancing their station when, in fact, economic mobility is the lowest it's been in America in 60 years.[/QUOTE]

[url=http://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/Business-Survival.pdf]oh really?[/url]

[Coldmute]

[QUOTE=Bentham;36935311]It may be low but it's not zero like you seem to be assuming. It is still possible to work your way up. Is it hard? Yes, does it take work? Yes. But acting like everyone who has made enough money to fill that slot is just lazy and didn't work for it is just ridiculous.[/QUOTE]No, not everyone. Just an incredible vast majority of them. Hardwork is not a factor. Period. There are plenty of factors, all of which beyond the control of the individual, that go in to an individual's success. Race, family, political standing, location. Things that are completely out of the control of the individual. And luck alone is an overwhelming factor. But hardwork? It basically does not exist in the equation. Its of such little importance as to be not worth mentioning.

[DainBramageStud]

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;36935397]No, not everyone. Just an incredible vast majority of them. Hardwork is not a factor. Period. There are plenty of factors, all of which beyond the control of the individual, that go in to an individual's success. Race, family, political standing, location. Things that are completely out of the control of the individual. And luck alone is an overwhelming factor. But hardwork? It basically does not exist in the equation. Its of such little importance as to be not worth mentioning.[/QUOTE]

nope, see Landy et al., 1994, pp. 271, 273, Organ 1994

also here's the abstract from Ciavarella et al, 2003:

[quote]This study examines the relationship of the entrepreneur's personality to long-term venture survival. We measure survival in two ways: (1) the likelihood the venture will survive for at least 8 years and (2) the overall life span of the venture. The “Big Five” personality attributes—extraversion, emotional stability, agreeableness, conscientiousness, and openness to experience provide the measures of the entrepreneur's personality. As hypothesized, the entrepreneur's conscientiousness was positively related to long-term venture survival. Contrary to expectations, we found a negative relationship between the entrepreneur's openness and long-term venture survival. Extraversion, emotional stability, and agreeableness were unrelated to long-term venture survival.[/quote]

[Coldmute]

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36935353][url=http://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/Business-Survival.pdf]oh really?[/url][/QUOTE]As someone whose family works directly with the SBA as a CDC, yeah, its much more severe than that graph would indicate. Its worth pointing out briefly that the SBA may be getting dismantled soon, and so it is under nearly constant pressure to justify its continued existence before Congress.

[DainBramageStud]

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;36935458]As someone whose family works directly with the SBA as a CDC, yeah, its much more severe than that graph would indicate. Its worth pointing out briefly that the SBA may be getting dismantled soon, and so it is under nearly constant pressure to justify its continued existence before Congress.[/QUOTE]

that still doesn't refute the actual statistics

[Disotrtion]

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;36935458]As someone whose family works directly with the SBA as a CDC, yeah, its much more severe than that graph would indicate. Its worth pointing out briefly that the SBA may be getting dismantled soon, and so it is under nearly constant pressure to justify its continued existence before Congress.[/QUOTE]
My anecdote overrides your statistics.
And actually [URL="http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/10/30/8391794/index.htm"]research shows practice and hard work[/URL] are essential to be successful, so I doubt its negligible.
Practice=better perfromance, its true with surgeons, businessmen, athletes, who ever.

[SigmaLambda]

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;36935457]nope, see Landy et al., 1994, pp. 271, 273, Organ 1994[/QUOTE]

i completely trust this twenty year old source of information that I have no means of easily accessing

[DainBramageStud]

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;36935514]i completely trust this twenty year old source of information that I have no means of easily accessing[/QUOTE]

refresh the page, I added more

also the efficacy of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice_(learning_method)#Deliberate_practice]deliberate practice[/url] in combination wit h innate talent would serve as a general counterargument to your position