[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28904941]right, cause consumer rights and freedom of the internet is wack[/quote]
But what you're saying is incorrect - I'm not saying that consumer rights is wack.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28904941]i'm not even going to bother, you'll say the same things you said the last time we argued about this and we'll get no where. I'm not likely to start sucking up to corporate rights anytime soon, and you're not about to start acknowledging consumer freedoms[/QUOTE]
Because I'm not retarded and suggest unlimited flexibility on software I do not own.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28904941]also, what was "wack" about what I "preach"[/QUOTE]
Why do I need to explain what rights consumers have?
[editline]31st March 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Roo-kie;28905016]I only support GeoHot because of Sony's bully tactics
pretty standard disgusting corporate behaviour[/QUOTE]
This 100%.
I think this fight shouldn't be over if geohot broke Sony's TOS or not - he certainly did. I think it should be: can Sony tell him what he can do with his appliance?
Protection against reverse engineering shouldn't be leveled against users who alter the feature-set of an item they own for their own use, it should be used to protect against competing companies stealing shit and reproducing it as their own.
I can mod the fuck out of my car if I wish to do so. Despite the fact that it is made by Ford and has their branding on it I can take it apart and change its features. Hell, I can even sell that modified car for a profit.
Terms of service and other contracts that a company can bind its users to are not all powerful. Just as me writing
[quote]By reading this sentence you agree to the following terms and conditions... you give me $5[/quote]
Is not legally binding, telling a user they can't modify their product for their purposes should not be within the powers that a company can wield.
This comic really applies to this subject
[media]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/The.Pirate.Bay.Cartoon-small.png[/media]
[QUOTE=bord2tears;28905712]I can mod the fuck out of my car if I wish to do so. Despite the fact that it is made by Ford and has their branding on it I can take it apart and change its features. Hell, I can even sell that modified car for a profit.[/quote]
You're comparing physical modification to software modification, which isn't applicable. Physical modification cannot be stopped, however, Ford could seek legal action if someone decided that they were going to mod Ford's ECU firmware without their permission. But yes, modification to the law needs to occur to allow and protect fair-use changes.
[QUOTE=bord2tears;28905712]Terms of service and other contracts that a company can bind its users to are not all powerful. Just as me writing
Is not legally binding, telling a user they can't modify their product for their purposes should not be within the powers that a company can wield.[/QUOTE]
The type of contract that Sony uses can be considered legally binding, however it is up to case law to decide if it is.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28901599]I believe there was a statistic published recently that ended up on facepunch that only 8% of the internet users in the US pirate.
I guess those untold damages really aren't so untold.[/QUOTE]
People seem to be missing the point a bit so just out with it.
MS let people hack Kinect because it can't do damage to their sales, quite the opposite. Hacking the PS3 however allows piracy, which can damage sales (let's not get into details on how bad, but it's hard to deny that piracy hurts sales at least a bit).
[QUOTE=Zeke129;28902762]Just Cause 2
Proof that if you release the best demo of the decade people will buy your SP-only game in droves[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;28903109]Dead Rising 2 Case Zero.
Dead Rising 2 sold like crack.[/QUOTE]
Which is why I thoroughly believe that developers need to drop the stupid 'free demos are too expensive and not worth it' (yes, one developer said that) because it's quite clear they help your sales.
woot woot
annual spring gold trollathon
troll all you want, you'll never get banned because you're gold
everyone loves skirting the boundaries of actual trolling by playing the it's just an opinion card and offering just the right amount of retardedness to seem like a douchebag but not get banned for threadshitting.
It'd be nice if the judge took a similar stand and set a precedent based on the jailbreaking phones being legal precedent set by an earlier case.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;28905801]You're comparing physical modification to software modification, which isn't applicable. Physical modification cannot be stopped, however, Ford could seek legal action if someone decided that they were going to mod Ford's ECU firmware without their permission. But yes, modification to the law needs to occur to allow and protect fair-use changes.
The type of contract that Sony uses can be considered legally binding, however it is up to case law to decide if it is.[/QUOTE]
I think half the communication problems with this discussion are down to the fact that both of those statements are completely false under for example English law. Under English law you're free to do whatever you damn well please with what you buy. I can modify/replace my ECU and Ford don't have a leg to stand on if they don't like it. Same with my PS3. EULAs are not legally binding here, either.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;28908448]People seem to be missing the point a bit so just out with it.
MS let people hack Kinect because it can't do damage to their sales, quite the opposite. Hacking the PS3 however allows piracy, which can damage sales (let's not get into details on how bad, but it's hard to deny that piracy hurts sales at least a bit).
Which is why I thoroughly believe that developers need to drop the stupid 'free demos are too expensive and not worth it' (yes, one developer said that) because it's quite clear they help your sales.[/QUOTE]
If you keep bringing up piracy doing damage, you better have some numbers to prove that. If a study comes out that says only 9% of US internet users pirate, then I guess you're kind of trying to stretch this to sound as dangerous as you can.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;28896762]He could've easily prevented being sued by keeping the exploit to himself. Instead he had to wave his dick around going 'ooh, look at me, i'm hacking a ps3, fuck the major corporations wooh'.[/QUOTE]
This is such an idiotic comment. That's what hacking is/was/should be all about. Have you not seen any intros or demos from old cracked games? They were essentially useless pieces of artistic "fuck you"/"we love this friendly competition" messages to copy protection software and other cracker groups.
I don't care what people do with the information I release. If I find something out other people don't, I am going to publish it online, even if it is just to flaunt my massive e-peen.
What good would keeping the exploit to himself make? He repeatedly stated he does not condone or endorse piracy and was just sharing his information with the world.
[QUOTE=jaykray;28894665]I'm just going by my logic, no need for name calling.[/QUOTE]
By your logic all dictators are just peachy because they haven't affected you.
The fact that GeoHot hacked the PS3 doesn't bother me, but the fact that he put it out there for others to do, potentially to destroy the PSN is the only thing that gets me. Some hackers had made Modern Warfare 2 unplayable on PS3 and that banned users can unban themselves which is what may be a sign that more damage can be done.
[QUOTE=killa101;28914375]The fact that GeoHot hacked the PS3 doesn't bother me, but the fact that he put it out there for others to do, potentially to destroy the PSN is the only thing that gets me. Some hackers had made Modern Warfare 2 unplayable on PS3 and that banned users can unban themselves which is what may be a sign that more damage can be done.[/QUOTE]
I'm more worried about some unbanned asshole banning other players who ain't done nothing wrong.
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;28904739]I know that Sony is unnecessarily going batshit over it. But you can't really deny that some people do pirate and hack.[/QUOTE]
I'm very aware that some people do pirate and hack. However, I'm saying that they always will, regardless of how tight Sony makes it's terms of service. Hackers will always find a way to hack, and pirates will always find a way to pirate. I think it's dumb to go to these lengths to stop a nearly harmless inevitability.
It wasn't even hacked by GeoHot to pirate games afaik, it was only because Sony took the OtherOS option away
[QUOTE=jaykray;28894289]How terrible, Sony don't want their console to be hacked. But obviously they're monsters because they took away Linux, so they'll get what's coming to them![/QUOTE]
Why are you complaining about lack of Linux? There's no point to having Linux on any console to being with. Most people who have a PS3 have a computer. You want Linux so bad, then friggin well install it on your PC!
[b]To be clear;[/b] [i]Linux is NOT a valid argument to support modifying a console. Backwards compatibility/emulation is more reasonable an argument than a friggin OS on your TV.[/i]
[QUOTE=EastBayWilly;28916248]Why are you complaining about lack of Linux? There's no point to having Linux on any console to being with. Most people who have a PS3 have a computer. You want Linux so bad, then friggin well install it on your PC!
[b]To be clear;[/b] [i]Linux is NOT a valid argument to support modifying a console. Backwards compatibility/emulation is more reasonable an argument than a friggin OS on your TV.[/i][/QUOTE]
Let's see:
Option to install Linux on a device with DVD / Blueray compatability
Built in hdmi
Relatively good specs
Low profile and looks good in a living room with the tv
Plays ps3 games
I'm seeing an advantage to having a console that can run Linux so you don't need to set up another computer to handle your media needs and play games.
[QUOTE=Kogitsune;28916345]Let's see:
Option to install Linux on a device with DVD / Blueray compatability
Built in hdmi
Relatively good specs
Low profile and looks good in a living room with the tv
Plays ps3 games
I'm seeing an advantage to having a console that can run Linux so you don't need to set up another computer to handle your media needs and play games.[/QUOTE]
I still don't see the point of having Linux in your living room. Everything you said are things the PS3 does by default. What does Linux do? Nothing. Go on Facebook? There's a browser for that. Look through videos/photos, that's also built in.
Linux is still pointless to have in a living room. As I said, you want Linux, install it on your PC.
[QUOTE=EastBayWilly;28916248][b]To be clear;[/b] [i]Linux is NOT a valid argument to support modifying a console. Backwards compatibility/emulation is more reasonable an argument than a friggin OS on your TV.[/i][/QUOTE]
A lot of people's qualm with the OtherOS removal is that it was the removal of an advertised feature. In fact, I happen to vaguely recall a case they lost in Europe for that very reason.
OtherOS was advertised feature and some people bought it for that (like USAF)
then it was taken away with pretty short warning time
[QUOTE=Ray-The-Sun;28916533]A lot of people's qualm with the OtherOS removal is that it was the removal of an advertised feature. In fact, I happen to vaguely recall a case they lost in Europe for that very reason.[/QUOTE]
False Advertisement is illegal. However the newer models don't have that issue. They don't advertise OtherOS anymore.
It doesn't affect me any, I don't see the point. I have a laptop, works wonders, great privacy. I have a PS3, excellent media center, great for an audience.
[QUOTE=EastBayWilly;28916248]
[b]To be clear;[/b] [i]Linux is NOT a valid argument to support modifying a console. Backwards compatibility/emulation is more reasonable an argument than a friggin OS on your TV.[/i][/QUOTE]
yes it is
[QUOTE=EastBayWilly;28916613]It doesn't affect me any, I don't see the point.[/QUOTE]
Then stop posting. You can't come in here saying "I don't care and neither should you" because you have absolutely no idea what other people's motivations might be. Maybe you should ask some questions before assuming you know everything there is to no.
Also, your outlook is selfish and ignorant. You might want to work on that.
[QUOTE=Catdaemon;28910803]I think half the communication problems with this discussion are down to the fact that both of those statements are completely false under for example English law.[/quote]
No they're not. You do not have the right to modify someone elses software without the express permission.
[QUOTE=Catdaemon;28910803]Under English law you're free to do whatever you damn well please with what you buy. I can modify/replace my ECU and Ford don't have a leg to stand on if they don't like it.[/QUOTE]
They do if you attempt to mod the firmware already on the ECU, however, if you replace the ECU firmware entirely with a modded version which doesn't contain any Ford data, then yes, you're in the green.
[QUOTE=Catdaemon;28910803]Same with my PS3. EULAs are not legally binding here, either.[/QUOTE]
That's a guess you're making - and while I'd call it an educated guess, I really doubt recent EULA's have been tested enough in court.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;28917696]No they're not. You do not have the right to modify someone elses software without the express permission.[/QUOTE]
Fair use trumps EULAs in that regard every time
Geohot didn't sell his work
GeoHotz has this won, No contest
[QUOTE=Zeke129;28917949]Fair use trumps EULAs in that regard every time[/quote]
In the past it has, due to the relating EULA being overreaching, but it's up to the courts to decide so.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;28917949]Geohot didn't sell his work[/QUOTE]
In the United States that doesn't matter - thanks overreaching DMCA!
[editline]1st April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mio Akiyama;28918004]GeoHotz has this won, No contest[/QUOTE]
Not really.
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;28917397]Then stop posting. You can't come in here saying "I don't care and neither should you" because you have absolutely no idea what other people's motivations might be. Maybe you should ask some questions before assuming you know everything there is to no.
Also, your outlook is selfish and ignorant. You might want to work on that.[/QUOTE]
I did ask some questions and no answers were given. My outlook may be ignorant but perhaps you should rethink the use of selfish to describe my posts.
[QUOTE=DogGunn;28918096]
In the United States that doesn't matter - thanks overreaching DMCA!
[/QUOTE]
An exception has already been made for smartphones so precedent exists.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;28919226]An exception has already been made for smartphones so precedent exists.[/QUOTE]
The PS3 is not a smartphone. I don't really see them wanting to add another exception, as eventually you could see every kind of device with stuff like this happening needing exceptions, kind of ruining the entire act.
Not like it is a good act anyway, but still.
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