Federal judge declares National Day of Prayer unconstitutional - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Tigster;21381227]but not for everyone. if the change applied to everyone you'd be right. But since it only applies to a good number, redefinition doesn't apply.[/quote]Christmas was pretty much grandfathered in, yeah, as a religious holiday. At this point though Christmas is more about presents than Jesus. Christmas is kind of really unrelated to this debate though. I guess you could make an argument about it being unconstitutional or illegal or something.[quote]If the government offices made employees stand up on this day and pray, that'd be different, because it's establishing a religious idea. However, it is only creating an opportunity for those who believe as such to do so, I fail to see the offense. [/quote]Don't federally recognize it - just make it a private affair. Again, I don't have a problem with the holiday itself. [quote]Look at it this way. When they hold a moment of silence on 9/11 or something, no one is offended, people generally go with it. If you don't, good for you, nobody can do anything to prosecute you. Are you going to feel uncomfortable making noise? maybe, but, again, you see how this applies to more areas than religion.[/QUOTE]Moment of silence doesn't inherently imply something is wrong with atheism or non-belief.

[QUOTE=PariahKing;21381254]Christmas was pretty much grandfathered in, yeah, as a religious holiday. At this point though Christmas is more about presents than Jesus. Christmas is kind of really unrelated to this debate though. I guess you could make an argument about it being unconstitutional or illegal or something.Don't federally recognize it - just make it a private affair. Again, I don't have a problem with the holiday itself. Moment of silence doesn't inherently imply something is wrong with atheism or non-belief.[/QUOTE] Christmas is a bit unrelated, I'll admit that. And I'm not necessarily speaking of the moment of silence in religious terms, just using it in a different way. My point is that the name itself is the only generally offensive thing. Moment of silence, people may not want to follow it, that's cool, it's not forced. Day of Prayer, people may not follow it, that's cool too. I wouldn't call it establishment of religion because it isn't making anyone pray, only creating an opportunity if you feel so inclined without looking awkward yourself. I'm not trying to play an advocate of a religious takeover, yes, I am a Christian, and I'm very strong in my beliefs, but I also recognize that shoving it down someone's throat does absolutely nothing helpful and only pushes people off and sends us down a horribly tainted path. If this was a day where they said, okay, everyone, stop what you are doing, no school, no nothing, stay home and pray, that's something I'd be completely against, but frankly it's not, it's just a window for those of us who'd like it. Every holiday is going to make people feel uncomfortable in some way I'm sure. Take Saint Patrick's day. I got really sick of people, especially fraternity brothers, pushing me to drink with them. I don't drink, and I felt uncomfortable from all the pressure. Is a good St. Patty's day party a fun thing? Sure, let people have their moment, but it's not a forced issue, and my St. Patty's day was pretty much the same as any other day.

I wonder if they will ever try and get Government Funding of Holocaust Museums cut off, and Holocuast under the Separation of Church and State clause due to them being mainly about Judaism, [I]Hey It's Always About A Religious Minority, Why do they never talk about the Romani or Poles who were also Singled Out by the Nazis simply because they were Poles and Romani and not because any of them were Jewish? Up To 2 million Poles, and 1.5 Million Romani Were Killed by the Nazis! This is Clearly A endorsement of Judaism![/I] Seriously, I bet you some Neo-Nazi would actually try to do this using the same argument. Also Meanwhile, I don't Get why they use Separation of Church and State to try and eradicate Christmas, Seriously They Need to learn History, considering Christians have banned, or tried to ban Christmas for [U][I]being [B]TOO[/B] secular[/I][/U] with the focus being on Santa Clause and gift Giving instead of celebrating the birth of Christ (which isn't even on Christmas, it's on the 21st of December, not the 26th) meanwhile, I don't get why people get so pissy over Christmas Trees considering that the bible denounces the practice of decorating trees for celebrations according to who you ask.

[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;21379975]Good. No more state-promoted religion.[/QUOTE] Honestly, promoting a lack of religion and forcing a godless outlook on everyone isn't much better. If a national day of prayer, which isn't even forced on anyone, is somehow unconstitutional, nearly every other holiday that has religious origins (Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, ect.) are also unconstitutional.

No one is forcing a godless outlook.

And nothing was gained.

[QUOTE=Jenkem;21385873]Honestly, promoting a lack of religion and forcing a godless outlook on everyone isn't much better.[/quote]It's religious neutrality. If you don't pray before doing something, you're not saying God doesn't exist. Having a day of prayer nationally implies it is good to pray or that you ought to be praying. [quote]If a national day of prayer, which isn't even forced on anyone, is somehow unconstitutional, nearly every other holiday that has religious origins (Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, ect.) are also unconstitutional.[/QUOTE]Origins of a tradition are irrelevant. Halloween has origins in evil spirits and witchcraft yet now most Christians celebrate it. I am not personally offended by bunnies and Easter eggs on lawns during the April/May parts of the year.

If I was to get a day off of school I wouldn't mind.

[QUOTE=PariahKing;21385976]It's religious neutrality. If you don't pray before doing something, you're not saying God doesn't exist. Having a day of prayer nationally implies it is good to pray or that you ought to be praying. Origins of a tradition are irrelevant. Halloween has origins in evil spirits and witchcraft yet now most Christians celebrate it. I am not personally offended by bunnies and Easter eggs on lawns during the April/May parts of the year.[/QUOTE] Why the double standard? kids on halloween feel bad if they don't dress up. people on Christmas feel bad if they don't give gifts or go to church, people on Thanksgiving feel bad if they don't give thanks somehow. Every holiday does that, why does this one stand out? because it actually has meaning other than commercialized nonsense?

[QUOTE=Tigster;21386570]Why the double standard? kids on halloween feel bad if they don't dress up. people on Christmas feel bad if they don't give gifts or go to church, people on Thanksgiving feel bad if they don't give thanks somehow. Every holiday does that, why does this one stand out? because it actually has meaning other than commercialized nonsense?[/QUOTE] because prayer insinuates that there is a God.

[QUOTE=Mr_Sun;21380883]Atheists are a smaller group than Religion as a whole and if atheists truely believe in Universalism then they should suck it up and stop acting selfish. Im just rambling and I dont really know how to explain what I am feeling to a forum full of atheiststic 15 year olds rebeling against their parents, but I wish people would just shut up about religion all together atheists and religious people alike.[/QUOTE] "Atheists are just kids rebelling against their parents" -Mr_Sun, 2010 "The USA Should keep religious holidays despite the constitution stating the US is a secular nation" -Mr_Sun 2010 "Atheists are a smaller group than religious people so religious people are more important" -Mr_Sun, 2010

I am neutral on this and don't even know what National Day of Prayer is.

[QUOTE=Mr_Sun;21381048] and that makes you the cool atheist. no really it does I have a lot of respect for people who just ignore those things which makes me a hypocrit. ill just show myself out the door...[/QUOTE] Does it matter? I'm not religious and I don't care that their are religious holidays are there either. Does that mean they should be there? Absolutely not.

[QUOTE=Tigster;21386570]Why the double standard? kids on halloween feel bad if they don't dress up. people on Christmas feel bad if they don't give gifts or go to church, people on Thanksgiving feel bad if they don't give thanks somehow. Every holiday does that, why does this one stand out? because it actually has meaning other than commercialized nonsense?[/QUOTE]You're missing my point - or I haven't explained it well enough. If I lived in a country where the majority of people were atheists and created the Day of No Praying, where people were heavily suggested to NOT pray in respect of atheists who believe it to be pointless, it would be bad. While atheism is merely a lack of belief and not a religion itself, it would have religious implications here. It would send out a message that prayer is bad. I don't want either - I don't want it to be a damn issue for the government at all. It's not that it just makes people uncomfortable. That's a byproduct. What it does is encourage the idea of religious discrimination by the state. See the comments by George H.W. Bush who is on record saying that atheists are not good Americans and such because this country is founded on God and nonsense. It reinforces that idea. The difference between recognizing a religion or religious activity and say, Easter eggs is huge. To be discriminated for one reason can be worse than the other and lead to more discrimination. It can lead to viewpoints like Bush Seniors. It's better off the government is just not involved as much as humanly possible in religious matters.

[QUOTE=PariahKing;21386926]What it does is encourage the idea of religious discrimination by the state.[/QUOTE] Because there's no such thing as praying in Buddhism, [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Incense-LE.jpg[/IMG] Hinduism, [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Bangladesh_Prayer.jpg/800px-Bangladesh_Prayer.jpg[/IMG] Judaism, [IMG]http://mecadserv1.technion.ac.il/public_html/ESDA08/images/Men_praying_at_Western_Wall_tb_n010200.jpg[/IMG] Or Islam, [IMG]http://worldradio.ch/wrs/bm~pix/muslim-praying~s600x600.jpg[/IMG] Or the many other religions in the world, It's a exclusive thing to those backwards Christians Rednecks that cling to their Guns and Bibles that does not need to be recognized by a Nation as diverse as America! :downs:

[QUOTE=Mr_Sun;21380803]so I guess the saying "God Bless America" is going to be illegal to say soon since it offends more people. [B]Id shoot the president before I stopped saying that...[/B] but I would never do that... somebody probably would though...[/QUOTE] lol You're a dumbass.

[QUOTE=Broseph_;21388555]Because there's no such thing as praying in Buddhism, Or the many other religions in the world, It's a exclusive thing to those backwards Christians Rednecks that cling to their Guns and Bibles that does not need to be recognized by a Nation as diverse as America! :downs:[/QUOTE] So much for actually understanding what the fuck the quote was talking about.

i read the title as "General Fudge"

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;21388650]So much for actually understanding what the fuck the quote was talking about.[/QUOTE] The only point I got from that was that if the state recognizes that its Religious Citizens, it's somehow discriminates on those who aren't religious despite nobody forcing anybody to do anything. Also about the Bush Senior, what about him, even though he's president, he's still entitled to his opinion as protected by the First Amendment.

[QUOTE=Broseph_;21388917]The only point I got from that was that if the state recognizes that its Citizens are religious by giving them their own little day to pray, it's somehow discriminates on those who aren't religious, yet I never hear white people scream discriminating despite Asians, Hispanics or Africans Americans having their own history months since it amounts to racial discrimination. Also about the Bush Senior, what about him, even though he's president, he's still entitled to his opinion as protected by the First Amendment.[/QUOTE] Your logic is skewed. Just take a step back and review what you're saying, then you can edit your post and hide your shame.

[QUOTE=Broseph_;21388917]The only point I got from that was that if the state recognizes that its Citizens are religious by giving them their own little day to pray, it's somehow discriminates on those who aren't religious, yet I never hear white people scream discriminating despite Asians, Hispanics or Africans Americans having their own history months since it amounts to racial discrimination. Also about the Bush Senior, what about him, even though he's president, he's still entitled to his opinion as protected by the First Amendment.[/QUOTE] It simply shouldn't be a state supported holiday. Secularism. I'm 100% fine with people praying on that day, as anyone and everyone should be, however, I am not ok with a government supporting religious beliefs. That is not the governments place, and it has never been. If they simply institute a day that's equivalent that you can use to pray or whatever you may that simply doesn't have religious overtones then this would be fine. State supported religion is just not good though. And yes, the history months are racist, but people don't tend to believe in "reverse racism".

[QUOTE=Jenkem;21385873]Honestly, promoting a lack of religion and forcing a godless outlook on everyone isn't much better. If a national day of prayer, which isn't even forced on anyone, is somehow unconstitutional, nearly every other holiday that has religious origins (Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, ect.) are also unconstitutional.[/QUOTE] By not forcing a religious outlook, and instead forcing no outlook, they're forcing a godless outlook? Y'all conservatives are retarded. Also, Christmas and Easter have secular and pagan origins.

Wait, we have a national day of prayer?

[QUOTE=PrismatexV8;21389003]By not forcing a religious outlook, and instead forcing no outlook, they're forcing a godless outlook? Y'all conservatives are retarded. Also, Christmas and Easter have secular and pagan origins.[/QUOTE] No body is forcing jackshit, they are just giving the citizens that are religious some recognition, it isn't like it's [I]National [I]Christian[/I] Prayer Day[/I], it's just National Prayer Day.

[QUOTE=Broseph_;21389176]No body is forcing jackshit, they are just giving the citizens that are religious some recognition, it isn't like it's [I]National [I]Christian[/I] Prayer Day[/I], it's just National Prayer Day.[/QUOTE] Jesus fuck you're dense. No one cares what religion it is. The fact they push ANY religious outlook is what matters. It should just be a secular thing. It has nothing to do with what religion.

[QUOTE=Valdor;21380012]What will I do without my National Day of Prayer!!![/QUOTE] Read a science book.

I am not bothered by it, but I do go with the ruling. The Constitution says the government can not support any one religion/belief in any way. This does do so. That would be breaking the constitution and thus should be dealt with as such. Any other way to see it would be useless and just stretching the situation more then needed or wanted.

[QUOTE=General Omega;21389574]I am not bothered by it, but I do go with the ruling. The Constitution says the government can not support any one religion/belief in any way. This does do so. That would be breaking the constitution and thus should be dealt with as such. Any other way to see it would be useless and just stretching the situation more then needed or wanted.[/QUOTE] This. Thank fuck, this.

Next we need to get "under god" out of the Pledge and "In god we trust" off the money.

What's so good about this? The government's basically said "K atheists, we're siding with you on this and are not going to show any sympathy or care for the religious people who may have liked this". [editline]04:22PM[/editline] [QUOTE=General Omega;21389574]I am not bothered by it, but I do go with the ruling. The Constitution says the government can not support any one religion/belief in any way. This does do so. That would be breaking the constitution and thus should be dealt with as such. Any other way to see it would be useless and just stretching the situation more then needed or wanted.[/QUOTE] Yeah, let's all focus on how religion in politics is soooo un-Constitutional, but let's just ignore the 8,645,384 other ways the government's broken the Constitution.