European Armies must spend more on defense - Polidicks

[QUOTE=godfatherk;45449632]This is perfectly right. One thing that sucks though is how tiny states in Europe are. Just look at Texas over Europe: [thumb]http://i.imgur.com/CUr608t.jpg[/thumb] Then the fact that there are entire mega-cities coridors interlinked crossing country borders wich cannot be separated anymore. [thumb]http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/whos_your_city/maps/FIG_3.2_Mega-Regions_of_Europe.gif[/thumb] So Europe is molded together first and foremost naturally, and then economically/politically. Yeah I don't see EU regressing in its integration process, and sooner than later it will become more like the US, or Canada, or Mexico, Or China, or Brazil, Or South Africa(just a few examples of LARGE countries, by area and population) I mean just to think EU more than doubled in size in the last ~15 years is mindblowing.Immagine how it would be 50 years from now? Yeah, kindof like the US looked like at its inception.[/QUOTE] If you think people will ever want Europe to join into one big country you need to think again

[QUOTE=ionuttzu;45447739]Why? Asking members of NATO to spend at least 2% of GDP on the military is not much, it's a fucking requirement of being a MEMBER of NATO. But it seems countries take the alliance defending them in case something happens for granted, and think they don't need a proper army anymore.[/QUOTE] It might have something to do with NATO losing its function after 91. Unless you're a Russophobic nationalist in eastern europe, of course.

[QUOTE=Complifused;45449709]If you think people will ever want Europe to join into one big country you need to think again[/QUOTE] It's not like the thirteen colonies loved each other - "ever" is a strong word, it'll probably happen down the line. Personally I'm against it, I feel Denmark has too little in common culturally with some of the southern (and eastern) European countries, so in those regards federal law would suck.

[QUOTE=Conscript;45449788]It might have something to do with NATO losing its function after 91. Unless you're a[B] Russophobic nationalist in eastern europe[/B], of course.[/QUOTE] Hahaha, are you fucking serious

[QUOTE=ionuttzu;45449849]Hahaha, are you fucking serious[/QUOTE] Only those who despise Russia have any reason to renew a conflict against her people. You want Russian anger, so you go to absurd lengths to provoke it and re-open historical wounds. Now you're trying to bring west Ukrainians into the circle of hate. Sorry, Russian chauvinism is dead. Your paranoia of a Russian 'big bad' is laughable and pathetic, a plagiarism of the interwar era nationalism charged on anti-communism and Russophobia.

[QUOTE=Complifused;45449709]If you think people will ever want Europe to join into one big country you need to think again[/QUOTE] I'm quite sure that people in Indonesia aren't all the same culturally/religiously, w/e. But they still form one country. [QUOTE]The RUSI comprised sixteen state entities: a "Republic of Indonesia" consisting of territories in Java and Sumatra (a combined population of over 31 million); and the fifteen states established by the Dutch, which had populations between 100,000 and 11 million. The RUSI(United states of Indonesia) had a bicameral legislature. The People's Representative Council consisted of 50 representatives from the Republic of Indonesia and 100 from the various states according to their populations. The Senate had two members from each constituent part of the RUSI regardless of population. Over the first half of 1950, the non-Republic states gradually dissolved themselves[citation needed] into the Republic. The United States of Indonesia was officially dissolved by President Sukarno on 17 August 1950 – the fifth anniversary of his proclamation of independence – and replaced by a unitary Republic of Indonesia.[/QUOTE] And Indoneseia is roughly the size of Europe.

[QUOTE=Conscript;45449971]Only those who despise Russia have any reason to renew a conflict against her people. You want Russian anger, so you go to absurd lengths to provoke it and re-open historical wounds. Sorry, Russian chauvinism is dead. Your paranoia of a Russian 'big bad' is laughable and pathetic, a plagiarism of the interwar era charged on anti-communism and Russophobia.[/QUOTE] Either you're a troll or really fucking brainwashed. Watch the news about Ukraine, you seem kind of out of the loop, and that's all I'm gonna say since I know you're gonna continue sprouting all kinds of bullshit about innocent Putin and Russia.

So as I said, just because the majority of a people in Europe don't want one big country doesn't mean it might not happen...

[QUOTE=godfatherk;45449632]This is perfectly right. One thing that sucks though is how tiny states in Europe are. Just look at Texas over Europe: Then the fact that there are entire mega-cities coridors interlinked crossing country borders wich cannot be separated anymore. [thumb]http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/whos_your_city/maps/FIG_3.2_Mega-Regions_of_Europe.gif[/thumb] So Europe is molded together first and foremost naturally, and then economically/politically. Yeah I don't see EU regressing in its integration process, and sooner than later it will become more like the US, or Canada, or Mexico, Or China, or Brazil, Or South Africa(just a few examples of LARGE countries, by area and population) I mean just to think EU more than doubled in size in the last ~15 years is mindblowing.Immagine how it would be 50 years from now? Yeah, kindof like the US looked like at its inception.[/QUOTE] i love how litterally all of england is supposedly one big london, exactly like i thought

europe will NEVER be one big country, there is too many different languages and along with that each culture is different with it's different history spannings thousands of years

[QUOTE=ionuttzu;45449987]Either you're a troll or really fucking brainwashed. Watch the news about Ukraine, you seem kind of out of the loop, and that's all I'm gonna say since I know you're gonna continue sprouting all kinds of bullshit about innocent Putin and Russia.[/QUOTE] Nope, I'm just aware of the historical continuity of this conflict and its relationship to WW2.

[QUOTE=Conscript;45449971]Only those who despise Russia have any reason to renew a conflict against her people. You want Russian anger, so you go to absurd lengths to provoke it and re-open historical wounds. Now you're trying to bring west Ukrainians into the circle of hate. Sorry, Russian chauvinism is dead. Your paranoia of a Russian 'big bad' is laughable and pathetic, a plagiarism of the interwar era nationalism charged on anti-communism and Russophobia.[/QUOTE] What the fuck am I even reading? Why do you go to such extent to defend everything politics do just because you're Russian?

[QUOTE=Conscript;45449971]Only those who despise Russia have any reason to renew a conflict against her people. [/QUOTE] My god you are just a mouthpiece for the Kremlin, aren't you.

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;45450062]What the fuck am I even reading? Why do you go to such extent to defend everything politics do just because you're Russian?[/QUOTE] So if I'm not screaming 'russian imperialism' I'm Russian, got it.

[QUOTE=ionuttzu;45449987]Either you're a troll or really fucking brainwashed. Watch the news about Ukraine, you seem kind of out of the loop, and that's all I'm gonna say since I know you're gonna continue sprouting all kinds of bullshit about innocent Putin and Russia.[/QUOTE] Russia only invaded Crimea because a hostile government had come to power in Ukraine and pulled the country out of his sphere of influence, Mr. Putin got spooked and acted brashly. He also saw the revolution in the context of his continuing chess-game with America. Since most other European countries are not Russian satellite states currently going through Maidan style revolutions I don't think we have much to worry about.

[QUOTE=Conscript;45450139]So if I'm not screaming 'russian imperialism' I'm Russian, got it.[/QUOTE] The way you defend EVERYTHING, whether you're right or wrong: [QUOTE]Only those who despise Russia have any reason to renew a conflict against [B]her people[/B].[/QUOTE] Nobody says this, probably not even Putin. All you do is defend Russia and attack anyone that says anything about it, even if it's good(Poster:"Russia is a pretty cool country"; You:"Too bad the West is full of Russiaphobics"). Like, I don't know anyone that takes you seriously, you're probably just a troll but if you are real about this, you need something decent in your life, chill down a bit. [editline]21st July 2014[/editline] Like, who legitimately here takes Conscript seriously, raise your hands.

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;45450205]The way you defend EVERYTHING, whether you're right or wrong: Nobody says this, probably not even Putin. All you do is defend Russia and attack anyone that says anything about it, even if it's good(Poster:"Russia is a pretty cool country"; You:"Too bad the West is full of Russiaphobics"). Like, I don't know anyone that takes you seriously, you're probably just a troll but if you are real about this, you need something decent in your life, chill down a bit. [editline]21st July 2014[/editline] Like, who legitimately here takes Conscript seriously, raise your hands.[/QUOTE] lol [QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45450145]Russia only invaded Crimea because a hostile government had come to power in Ukraine and pulled the country out of his sphere of influence, Mr. Putin got spooked and acted brashly. He also saw the revolution in the context of his continuing chess-game with America. Since most other European countries are not Russian satellite states currently going through Maidan style revolutions I don't think we have much to worry about.[/QUOTE] But...but Putler. :( There has been a continual Western march eastward since the 90s through the EU and NATO, which Russia could live with in places like Poland, the Baltics, and Romania. Then it came to Ukraine, an east slavic country with old ties to Russia and a significant pro-Russian population, through a coup by militant Russophobes from a region never part of any historic east slav state. Also started over a popularly rejected future with the West that was objectively worse than Russia's offer. Russia retaliates and suddenly Russian imperialism is the world's new big bad. As Kissinger once said, demonization of Putin is not policy, but the absence of one. Essentially this thread is about how Europe needs to re-arm otherwise its imperialism in the East will be harmless and swatted to the side by Russia's national position as an east slav big brother.

[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45450145]Russia only invaded Crimea because a hostile government had come to power in Ukraine and [B]pulled the country out of his sphere of influence[/B], Mr. Putin got spooked and acted brashly. He also saw the revolution in the context of his continuing chess-game with America. Since most other European countries are not Russian satellite states currently going through Maidan style revolutions I don't think we have much to worry about.[/QUOTE] Yeah, great reason to invade another country. Poor Russia, boo hoo. How dare another country decide what it wants to do, fucking russians

[QUOTE=ionuttzu;45450274]Yeah, great reason to invade another country. Poor Russia, boo hoo. How dare another country decide what it wants to do, fucking russians[/QUOTE] Lol you should probably take your own advice and read the news. Half of Ukraine is not like you, it does not hate Russia and does not see itself as a victim of it. Additionally, there is a significant ethnic Russian demographic in Ukraine. Sorry, you're not talking about just any country around Russia. You're talking about Ukraine. To quote Vaclav Klaus: [quote]This repeatedly surfacing crisis [between East and West Ukraine] has been chosen as a pretext to bring about a new confrontation between the West and Russia, by all those who have a reason to despise Russia. These people have known full well that destabilization of an important (largest and most populous) neighbor is something that Russia cannot accept easily - that is why they have steered the existing dissatisfaction more and more towards Russia - that is why they have backed the arguments coming from western Ukraine - that is why they have fostered the conflict between western and eastern Ukraine, something that to a large extent amounts to a conflict between Ukrainians and Russians - that is why they have misinterpreted real economic relations between Ukraine and Russia - that is why they have painted the picture of Russia as an expanding superpower that is anxiously waiting for an opportunity to occupy Ukraine.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Conscript;45450293]Lol you should probably take your own advice and read the news. Half of Ukraine is not like you, it does not hate Russia and does not see itself as a victim of it.[/QUOTE] "Half" of Ukraine is made up of russians that moved there in the soviet era after you guys so kindly starved off a lot of Ukrainians. Russia colonized USSR countries like this, and I admit it was a good move for Russia. Thank God Romania was never part of that shitty Union cause the same shit would've happened here. Now those soviet-era mummies remember how "great" it was in commie times and want back with Russia now that they thought Putin would help them by invading the rest of Ukraine.

Russia sounds like a mad shit place to live really, I can totally see why Ukraine wanted to gain some real autonomy away from Putin and his governing. Rampant social problems, a great deal of corruption, poverty. Russia doesn't give a fuck about you Conscript, why in the fuck are you defending them? Nationalism is the bane of progress, stop caring about arbitrary borders like they actually mean anything to you.

[QUOTE=Conscript;45450257]lol[/QUOTE] Well, this isn't giving any progress at all to the conversation.

The US has been asking for EU countries to step it up for years now. Robert Gates the former Defense Secretary thought out loud about the US exiting the alliance because of how lopsided it has become. The whole Libya campaign highlighted that point too clearly when France and Britain couldn't sustain a small scale bombing campaign against Gaddafi without the US providing intelligence, munitions and fuel. Not to mention the German abstention on Libya which angered their own European allies. That said, the recent issues in Eastern Europe have basically served as a life preserver for the alliance. However, [URL="http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/may_2012/51_think_u_s_should_withdraw_all_troops_from_europe"]increasingly Americans resent the role their country plays in Europe[/URL], and the US government is privately questioning the value of European defense in lieu of the Pacific and Africa. [URL="http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-to-pull-2-combat-brigades-out-of-europe/"]We're already seeing US forces drawn down in Europe[/URL] - [URL="http://www.armytimes.com/article/20130203/NEWS/302030302/Lawmakers-opt-against-European-pullout-now"]it's not far fetched to imagine a near complete US withdrawal from the continent[/URL], and to be blunt the EU wouldn't be able to fill that void in any meaningful way.

[QUOTE=ionuttzu;45450325]"Half" of Ukraine is made up of russians that moved there in the soviet era after you guys so kindly starved off a lot of Ukrainians. Russia colonized USSR countries like this, and I admit it was a good move for Russia. Thank God Romania was never part of that shitty Union cause the same shit would've happened here.[/QUOTE] No offense, but you really have no idea what you are talking about. Novorossiya (which, FYI, Romanians helped colonize as a fellow Orthodox people) and the Donbass were never part of any historical Ukraine, it was pieced in with the Ukrainian SSR as part of Korenization in the 20s. It was supposed to be a symbol of the USSR's transcendence of national issues. lmao you actually think Russians just invaded and colonized. this is exactly what I'm talking about with the historical continuity and Russophobia. Such ignorance of the region while accentuating the victim narratives of Soviet history (whether they are justified or not) is exactly why cold war 2.0 is taking off so easy and nationalism is alive in well in places like the Baltics, Poland, and Romania. I feel bad for you, honestly, knowing how charged you are with hate derived from history. [quote]Nationalism is the bane of progress, stop caring about arbitrary borders like they actually mean anything to you[/quote] I actually agree, but it seems we've been led to two different conclusions. My hatred of nationalism, particularly of the kind that takes pride in collaboration with the nazis, is exactly why I support separatism in Ukraine. I don't like Russian nationalism, but it's hard to hate it as much because Great Russian Chauvinism is a historical dinosaur and dead. It's just an excuse for russophobes to charge people up on cold war 2.0. Russia's anti-fascist movement is stronger than in the countries around it, anyway.

[QUOTE=Conscript;45450385] I feel bad for you, honestly, knowing how charged you are with hate derived from history. [/QUOTE] Having read some of his posts before in other threads, i feel the same way.

[QUOTE=Satane;45450294]Suuure "culturally"[/QUOTE] What do you mean?

[QUOTE=ionuttzu;45450274]Yeah, great reason to invade another country. Poor Russia, boo hoo. How dare another country decide what it wants to do, fucking russians[/QUOTE] That's the way geopolitics work, you rip yourself out of one country's sphere and jump into another you make them your enemy. That's why relations between Cuba and the US are so sour, I expect Ukraine will be Russia's Cuba for the next few decades.

[QUOTE=Conscript;45450385]No offense, but you really have no idea what you are talking about. Novorossiya (which, FYI, [B]Romanians helped colonize as a fellow Orthodox people[/B]) and the Donbass were never part of any historical Ukraine, it was pieced in with the Ukrainian SSR as part of Korenization in the 20s. It was supposed to be a symbol of the USSR's transcendence of national issues. lmao you actually think Russians just invaded and colonized. this is exactly what I'm talking about with the historical continuity and Russophobia. Such ignorance of the region while accentuating the victim narratives of Soviet history (whether they are justified or not) is exactly why cold war 2.0 is taking off so easy and nationalism is alive in well in places like the Baltics, Poland, and Romania. I feel bad for you, honestly, knowing how charged you are with hate derived from history. I actually agree, but it seems we've been led to two different conclusions. My hatred of nationalism, particularly of the kind that takes pride in collaboration with the nazis, is exactly why I support separatism in Ukraine. I don't like Russian nationalism, but it's hard to hate it as much because Great Russian Chauvinism is a historical dinosaur and dead. It's just an excuse for russophobes to charge people up on cold war 2.0. Russia's anti-fascist movement is stronger than in the countries around it, anyway.[/QUOTE] Oh fuck off with this bullshit, I see Russians always using this "Orthodox brothers" crap. Romania never liked Russia and never will, even when we were communists we tried our best to stay as far away as possible from Russia and it's shit. [editline]21st July 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45450473]That's the way geopolitics work, you rip yourself out of one country's sphere and jump into another you make them your enemy. That's why relations between Cuba and the US are so sour, I expect Ukraine will be Russia's Cuba for the next few decades.[/QUOTE] I know it's how geopolitics works, and it makes sense since Crimea is a very important place from a military point of view. Doesn't mean it's a reason to make Russia or Putin innocent.

[QUOTE=ionuttzu;45450530]Oh fuck off with this bullshit, I see Russians always using this "Orthodox brothers" crap. Romania never liked Russia and never will, even when we were communists we tried our best to stay as far away as possible from Russia and it's shit..[/QUOTE] [quote]I feel bad for you, honestly, knowing how charged you are with hate derived from history. [/quote] You should, at the very least, not hate Russians for the past history of its aristocracy and other ruling elites. That is nothing but chauvinism. It's saying this about blood, not politics and matters of state. That kind of reasoning is why pretty much the whole of Eastern Europe and the fSU have such have such a fascism problem. Also, I'm sure you liked them when the Turks were at your door.

[QUOTE=Conscript;45449971]Only those who despise Russia have any reason to renew a conflict against her people. You want Russian anger, so you go to absurd lengths to provoke it and re-open historical wounds. Now you're trying to bring west Ukrainians into the circle of hate. Sorry, Russian chauvinism is dead. Your paranoia of a Russian 'big bad' is laughable and pathetic, a plagiarism of the interwar era nationalism charged on anti-communism and Russophobia.[/QUOTE]this is rich yeah because the yokels out in glorious donetsk are the pinnacle of russian culture